Player diversity = build diversity

General Discussion
12/23/2014 12:38 PMPosted by TheWildcard
I don't see the issue with just playing your build at wherever it happens to fall on the curve. There's not a lack of variety, there's just very few at the end of the spectrum.


ive just one question... why are you (or any other player with that mindset) talking/discussing about that topic "diversity"?
12/23/2014 12:44 PMPosted by Wichtelman
12/23/2014 12:38 PMPosted by TheWildcard
I don't see the issue with just playing your build at wherever it happens to fall on the curve. There's not a lack of variety, there's just very few at the end of the spectrum.


ive just one question... why are you (or any other player with that mindset) talking/discussing about that topic "diversity"?


Because we are upset there aren't more diverse competitive builds. When one or two does surface its nerfed into the ground.
I don't think the dev's are requiring anyone to play any particular spec. Every different spec I have tried requires a different way of playing. Some may take more finesse than others. That's the real point of diversity.

If there is one thing that needs to be changed, it's the fact they really did lower drop rates in regular rifts and made the best place for drops GRifts. I don't know if they denied doing it, but all in-game evidence points to "yes, they did do it". GRift competition is great for those who care. Those of us who don't, just have longer between drops. Pretty sad I can do 20 rifts, get 6-7 legs, then do one GRift at ONLY level 20 and get 3-4 legs from it.

Player diversity is definitely showing here in at least 2 factions, though. The "competitors", and the "casuals". It's fine if you want to spit venom when mentioning the other group of players, but I honestly think Blizzard is trying to do the right thing by all of us. Are they infallible? Of course not, no one is. Does it make them wrong? No, they are trying.

I'm always going to be a casual. I'm not the most skilled player in this game, or any other game I have played. I will probably always be a casual. Fact is, there are a lot more casuals than competitors buying video games. If some one can strike a balance between the two main factions of gamers, they are going to be rich. I have to say, giving that nearly every "competitor" has major gripes about this game, competition shouldn't be what Blizzard shoots for here.
12/23/2014 12:49 PMPosted by TEHvomit
Player diversity is definitely showing here in at least 2 factions, though. The "competitors", and the "casuals". It's fine if you want to spit venom when mentioning the other group of players, but I honestly think Blizzard is trying to do the right thing by all of us


does it hurt "casual" players if we all get more build support? why the hassle?
For build diversity to exist. They need to leave builds alone and then add to the repertoire.
Increase the number of character slots. Some players will actually use them and create fun builds.
12/23/2014 12:37 PMPosted by Ebonbolt
Fortunately people are capable of better analytical techniques than Brute Force exhaustive search.


If your going to always look for the shortcut to endgame, don't get upset that you don't have enough end game. Some games don't have an "end game" because the whole thing is the game. ARPG's are about the WHOLE game. This may come off as snide, but WOW has an end game, and it's intentional. Why aren't you playing WOW?

This all goes right back to the loop of diversity in players, which is definitely here. Diversity in the game is there too, just too much diversity evidently. Just because your idea of diversity is playing every possible spec the same way with the same outcome, your not looking for diversity, but perhaps just an EZ button.

I apologize for being all over the place with posts, I'm at work and have to leave my desk often.
Want to know the reason why people don't want to play non-BiS builds?... ready for this?

Because the "play it your way" builds don't make you feel powerful. The BiS builds at least make you feel powerful for a little bit... until you realize everyone else is just as powerful as you. Then you don't feel special anymore.
12/23/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Seronn
Because the "play it your way" builds don't make you feel powerful.


What makes you feel powerful? If a crusader plays a blessed hammer spec mowing down T3, can't that crusader have a feeling of powerful-ness? Why does T6 or any particular GR level need to be the measuring stick?

I'm just throwing it out there, though, admittedly I'm frustrated with Roland's set underperforming. There's an expectation that sets are where abilities are buffed, so it seems those sets should be held to a certain standard.
I personally don't get a sense of accomplishment by being mediocre. T3 by today's standards is pretty easy to beat, and if that makes you happy, more power to you. But for me, I like to try to achieve the highest level possible. Unfortunately, it only can be achieved for barbs by going Raekor set with very specific items.

I personally don't hate Raekors, although I admit, the single target dps by barbarians at higher GRift levels makes me want to commit suicide.

Now that I think about it, I guess the reason I think "Play it your way" is stupid is because the more competitive you are in this game, the more narrow your choices become. That would be the best way to put it. If you are satisfied just blowing stuff up at T1, then you can play whatever you want. But if you want to be able to clean T6 and GRift 35+, you NEED to play the way the game dictates. That is stupid, it is why this game stinks, and it is why the whole concept of "play it your way" is a farce.
12/23/2014 01:18 PMPosted by Pereg
What makes you feel powerful? If a crusader plays a blessed hammer spec mowing down T3, can't that crusader have a feeling of powerful-ness? Why does T6 or any particular GR level need to be the measuring stick?


it doesn't "need to be" that measuring stick. it IS that measuring stick. whatever high end area the designers place in the game, The instant its deployed and set foot in by the players, it assumes that position of "measuring stick"

World of Warcraft could have end game dungeons where only certain class comps can thrive.

luckily though these comps from dungeon to dungeon get juggled around.

many classes can tank end game bosses. even spell casters have been known to do so. even druids. even rogues have been known to tank bosses. even Hunter pets.

many classes can output high damage, or high healing etc...

the players are given a sandbox within which they are allowed to discover ways to thrive. and that "way of thriving" is built upon so many layers of variation that no final answer can be arrived upon without insane amounts of effort.

Even top tier guilds will disagree on things so minute as precise talent point choices....at least this was the case before the new talent trees came about.

people will say that as you climb closer to that edge of performance right to eh top 1% "best builds" will be reduced and the final answer will become more and more clear.

this was true except WoW kept coming out with new things and new areas....

and this is where D3 falls short.

its a closed system, its shallow, and predicable and its simplified.

its not a huge long discussion and study and path to arrive at the end.

It's more like 2+2.

2+2 equals "your class set, a furnace and a RRoG"

and there is not lots to do and there is not lots to excel at. its go get the same items as everyone else, go click the same skills and go do damage in Grifts...

and That's it. the Axiom is "easy to learn, hard to master"

blizzard games take this saying and make it an art-form.

but in D3 its hardly even there....there is no mastery and no effort and no pride. Just roll your face on the keyboard until you have Marauders....then roll your face some more....

6 months from now its "roll your face for some golden bordered items...."
lol Shurgosa, I'm not sure if you played it, but way back when, I played a MMO called Dark Age of Camelot, and your statement of roll your face on the keyboard reminded me of a guy who played an Infiltrator (an assassin class) and bound the "Dragonfang" ability (9 sec stun off of evade.. and assassins evaded like crazy back then) to every key he could use, and literally streamed himself headbutting his keyboard while fighting people.

The best part was, he actually won a few fights because the class was THAT overpowered at the time.
12/23/2014 01:18 PMPosted by Pereg
12/23/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Seronn
Because the "play it your way" builds don't make you feel powerful.


What makes you feel powerful? If a crusader plays a blessed hammer spec mowing down T3, can't that crusader have a feeling of powerful-ness? Why does T6 or any particular GR level need to be the measuring stick?


Yes, but if I've already been to T6 and Greater Rifts at or higher than that then going back down to T3 makes me feel less powerful, not more powerful. T8 and Rifts are the measuring sticks because that's the only form of progression the game has. If there were other ways to progress your character like other titles have then it wouldn't be such a glaring issue.

Doesn't particularly matter what the build is, either. That's where fun comes in - it CAN be fun to go back down and kill stuff with a build that works pretty well, but that's where the issues start. Many builds just don't work all that well unless they have a set and/or a few specific legendary items to complement them. Excepting the 1 or 2 top builds per class, there are very few of those and many builds fail even with item support.

Also, sometimes you just might not be able to find the items. I figured my fun in Diablo III would come from playing around with different builds, but it hasn't worked out that way because I often don't have what I need to make the build work (cough Meteor staff cough). Or I keep having to make decisions about scrapping projects because we have so little stash space to work with.

And a question - why does it matter to you if more builds are made better? I fail to see the downside.

12/23/2014 01:38 PMPosted by Shurgosa

many classes can tank end game bosses. even spell casters have been known to do so. even druids. even rogues have been known to tank bosses. even Hunter pets.


That hasn't happened in years to my knowledge. Last time Rogues tanked effectively was Illidan. Occasionally there will be a Council-type fight where a caster tanks a caster, but my last memory of that happening was Blood Council in Icecrown Citadel.
12/23/2014 01:43 PMPosted by Seronn
lol Shurgosa, I'm not sure if you played it, but way back when, I played a MMO called Dark Age of Camelot, and your statement of roll your face on the keyboard reminded me of a guy who played an Infiltrator (an assassin class) and bound the "Dragonfang" ability (9 sec stun off of evade.. and assassins evaded like crazy back then) to every key he could use, and literally streamed himself headbutting his keyboard while fighting people.

The best part was, he actually won a few fights because the class was THAT overpowered at the time.


my friends played DaoC day in day out.....sadly I missed that boat, but have heard from many players that even to this day the PvP of any MMO you can name often pales in comparison to the fun had in that slept on dusty old game :P
12/23/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Orrion
And a question - why does it matter to you if more builds are made better? I fail to see the downside.
It was easily the best PvP of any game I ever played. Nothing has come even close. I played way too much. Was a top 50 player for my class in the world when I called it quits after 8 years of playing. But yeah, I had so much fun.

Now I just post stupidity on a Diablo 3 forum because it is more fun than Diablo 3 the game.
RPGs are about power. It is in rpg-player nature to become as powerful as you can. If you dont want be powerful dont play rpg. Thats the fact. And thats the reason for low diversity. There are too big gaps between skills.

Build diversity = balnced skills. And D3 doesnt have it!
Yeah...no.

Huge part of the fun in this game comes from being strong, and finding loot.

The fact that you are ten times weaker than everyone is not fun. T6 is an absolute minimum. Why?

Because below t6 drop rates are garbage.

Also you are having less fun when more than half of your loot is unusable because your equipement has 6 piece set that is set in stone.

Stop being such a delusional white knight OP. The game has almost zero build diversity. There is no !@#$ing diversity when one thing is hundred times stronger than everything else.

Of course there will always be "best build" but it doesnt have to do hundred times more damage than everything else.
12/23/2014 08:00 AMPosted by TheWildcard
There will always be a ‘best build’ when it comes to effectiveness.

That's fine. What's not fine is when that "best build" performs 200%+ better than everything else.

12/23/2014 10:16 AMPosted by Vajra
Many posters here believe that to play this game, running T6 with the greatest efficiency is the only way to play, and constitutes the end game.

It wasn't our decision to place the entirety of our character's power on gear alone, drastically increasing the weight of efficiency in the overall experience. It was the designers' stupid "philosophies" to cater to the lowest common denominator that simply can't be bothered with meaningful choices that sacrificed one of the most pivotal aspects of the genre in this ARPG wannabe project. If your time investment actually translated into real progress (not the measly bonus paralol levels give) as it should in a decent ARPG, then efficiency wouldn't be such a priority looking towards accomplishing a rewarding experience. As it is now, however, either you pull that slot machine's lever as fast as you can, or your chances to progress will be substantially lower, since luck alone dictates how you progress, if at all.

Sure, you can pretend there's a lot of diversity while facerolling T2 with some oddball build, but you're only kidding yourself if you actually think that's true diversity. If running underperforming builds makes you happy, however, please continue to have fun with it, but don't expect everyone to try to hide the sun with a finger as you do, because it simply isn't going to happen.

If these clueless designers actually had the balls to acknowledge the harm their suppression of meaningful player-driven progression has caused to this game, then perhaps they'd be ready to work towards addressing that humongous mistake, but I'm fully aware that's not a reasonable expectation at this point, given the obscene level of arrogance they've displayed so far.
Btw the creator of this thread has the best ray of frost build I have ever seen. Congrat's to you on finding a fun build that breaks the mold.

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