[Mechanics] Davlok's Random Testing Shack

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Edit: added some 2.4.1 info in brackets [ ], but kept the majority of the older 2.3 info here for reference as the the MR & EP overwriting mechanics are still the same.

I too am/was/probably-still confused as to how Mythic Rhythm behaves, and a few of my past tests ended up being a bit misleading with respect to MR because a lot of times my test started with an active EP, which was because I assumed (incorrectly) that Madstone/Gungdo/U2 would always apply a "fresh" EP that would overwrite any previous EP active. They actually do NOT overwrite exisiting EPs. So the most critical part of the mechanics is how EPs are applied, refreshed, and overwritten.

Manually Applying EP is the only way to overwrite an existing EP.
- Madstone's EP application does not overwrite an existing EP.
- Gungdo's EP detonation does not overwrite any existing EPs on targets caught in explosion.
- Gungdo's EP detonations refreshes the duration of any existing EPs caught in explosion
- Gungdo's EP detonations only applies its EP to the original target it detonated from and any targets without EP caught in explosion
- U2's EP application does not overwrite any existing EPs on targets hit.
- U2's EP application refreshes the duration of any existing EPs on targets hit.
- U2's EP application applies a "fresh" EP to all targets hit that do not have an EP active.

So how does this affect Mythic Rhythm? MR is a passive that increases the damage of your next "damaging spirit spender by 40%" What I thought it meant was 'spirit spending spender that does damage' when infact it has no spirit spending requirement, only that it be classified as damaging. So U2 -DOES- consume the Mythic Rhythm buff... but only if there is a valid target to apply a "fresh" EP to. Confusing right?

Uliana 2pc with MR:
Applies a "fresh EP" to all targets without EP. ONE of those targets without a previous EP will have a MR-buffed-EP applied to them. MR is consumed in this case.
If all targets already have an existing EP on them, MR is -NOT- consumed, and no MR-buffed-EPs are applied. All existing EP durations refreshed.

Gungdo with MR:
Will spread MR-buffed-EPs only to targets caught in explosion that did NOT already have an EP active.

Madstone with MR: (no Gungdo)
Target without EP: Madstone applies a fresh non-MR EP and detonates it.
Target with EP: Madstone does NOT apply a new EP (refreshes the duration) and instantly detonates that original EP. All subsequent SSS strikes apply a non-MR-EP and detonates immediately as expected. If the original EP was MR-buffed, only that single EP detonation would occur and the rest would be "plain" EPs.

Madstone with MR: (with Gungdo)
Target without EP: Madstone applies a fresh non-MR EP and detonates it. That first EP is then "refreshed" by Gungdo, then "refreshed" by Madstone on the next strike, and then detonated again for the rest of the SSS.
Target with MR-buffed-EP: Madstone does NOT apply a new EP (refreshes the duration) and instantly detonates that original EP. Gungdo then refreshes the MR-buffed-EP on the original target and Madstone keeps refreshing the EP Gungdo just re-applied. So all explosions are MR-buffed, and Madstone is really doing nothing useful in this case.

Since most monks pushing GRs are using Gungdo-only, there are really only two good methods to snapshot MR:

Single Target
U2 will apply MR-buffed EP after the 3rd generator strike.
(If you apply EP manually after the very first 3 hit combo, you will actually be overwriting a MR-EP with a non-MR-EP.)
So if you wanted to make sure you applied a MR-EP to the RG (and don't trust U2), then gain the MR buff and apply EP manually to the RG that has EP already.
When an RG does spawn adds, SSS before U2 so you can spread the active MR-buffed-EP on the RG to the adds instead of non-MR-EPs from U2.

Multi Target
Gain MR buff and run away with it. That means usually doing 2x 3 strikes and then dashing away. Find a new pack.
Apply MR-buffed-EP manually to a single target
SSS immediately to spread it from that single target to everything else.
Keep in mind, as new adds get dragged into combat, you will need to use SSS to spread your MR-EPs to them instead of using U2 if you want to ensure they all get the MR-EP.

Other things that snapshot along with Mythic Rhythm:
- the hand used (mainhand/offhand)
- Elemental (not CoE)
- Elite
- Damage Increased by Skills (Power Pylon, Assimilation*, Momentum, Blinding Flash, etc). [no longer the case since 2.4. Power Pylon also moved to become multiplicative.]

* - Assimilation buff is gained after U2 applies EP, so uh.. yea.

Dynamic buffs that you can't snapshot:
- Convention of Elements
- Zei's Stone of Vengeance
- Bane of the Trapped
- Sunwuko 4pc [Set changed in 2.4, no longer a buff]
- Broken Promises
- Focus/Restraint
- Additive Damage [Buffs such as Assimilation, Momentum, Strongarms, etc]

Hope that clears things up a little ^_^; So if you can find a Power Pylon early in a large 1st floor GR map. #snapshot! Step 1: RNG a power pylon at the GR entrance; Step 2: Get as many stacks of Assimilation as possible Step 3: Dash to a new pack really fast, apply a MR+Assimilation+Power-buffed-EP and spread that for the rest of the map! ^_^ but I don't really play U6 in non-seasons so don't know if that works as good as it sounds heh.

So why bother to use Mythic Rhythm?
Because it is by FAR the best DPS passive for Fullset Uliana builds, as MR is it's own individual multiplier. If you can learn how to snapshot MR onto all your EPs, you can utilize MR on your SSS in most situations and thus raise your DPS ceiling ~40% higher than any other DPS passive. Uliana Monks are also one of the few classes that can snapshot a Power Pylon onto a great portion of their damage as well ^_^

Edit: Adding a small section on what I think would be "ideal" GR-pushing conditions in quotes below. I'm not playing Season 4, so it's mostly a paper-study (holding colic baby right now listening to Maroon 5...ug)

U6 with MR+Assimilation #pylonfishing [Power Pylons no longer additive, and cannot be snapshot after Patch 2.4]
- Enter GR.
- Gently massage whatever you can to erect a Power Pylon.
- Grab Power Pylon.
- Gather as many (small hitbox) enemies as you can handle
- Gain 40+ Assimilation stacks.
- Ensure you gain MR buff by using generator on pack that already has EP on EVERYONE
- Dash twice off screen to new pack.
- EP single monster while Assimilation, Power Pylon, and MR buff is still active.
- SSS to spread that seed-MRAP-EP to everything nearby.
- Drag back to original large pack from which all EPs have dropped
- Destroy 90% of pack
- Drag last 10% of pack across the map to spread MRAP-EP to every new enemy.
- Ensure you never use U2 to apply weaksauce-EP to new enemies. (But continue to generate to MR buff your SSS once everything has MRAP-EP spread)
- Spawn RG. (On map 1 obviously!)
- Apply EP from U2 (this will be a MR-EP)
- If RG spawns adds, gain max assimilation stacks, generate a few times to ensure you have MR-buff, and apply MRA-EP to RG.
- When additional adds spawn, SSS to spread MRA-EP from RG to them.
- ...
- Profit.
Fascinating results! For a starting SWK player this really clears up some of my confusion about how to optimize EP damage.

For the reference, I was not satisfied with the earlier tests on EP:FiW because one is a DoT while EP:ID only does a single tick of damage- it might simply have been the case that it updates the snapshotted damage after every single tick - but my further testing (and real-world rift experience) excluded this possibility.

So I assume if I want to completely optimize my damage, I would be replacing my mantra by blinding flash and hitting it before every third generator hit for an extra free 29% damage?

Also, how does Assimilation interact with EP? Favorably, I assume - as in, I would gain the assimilation stacks and then the applied EP would instantly snapshot these stacks?

Edit: Nvm, saw it now. Shame :(
Hello, I have some questions about SSS and Lion's Claw, sorry if these have been asked before:

Skill description of SSS states that it deals 5677% weapon damage over 7 strikes. Uliana's 4-pc set bonus states that SSS deals its total damage each hit. So from these descriptions, is it correct to say that each hit is total SSS damage divided by 7? (without U4 bonus and a white 2-hander equipped)

If I equip Lion's Claw alone, does the total SSS damage get divided by 14 per hit? (LC in MH and OH is empty)

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that SSS alternates between MH & OH. With LC equipped and without U4 bonus, how does the total SSS damage get divided among the 14 strikes when MH/OH alternates?

Right now I only have 3 pieces of Uliana's set. I also don't have Binding of the Lost or Madstone. So if I don't find a RoRG or get a 4th set piece, there is no real benefit to using LC, right? (aside from the slightly longer invulnerability animation frames)

Thanks in advance! :)
09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Uliana 2pc with MR:
Applies a "fresh EP" to all targets without EP. ONE of those targets without a previous EP will have a MR-buffed-EP applied to them. MR is consumed in this case.
If all targets already have an existing EP on them, MR is -NOT- consumed, and no MR-buffed-EPs are applied. All existing EP durations refreshed.


Can I take this to mean that if you rely solely on Uliana 2pc to apply EP that all of them will become mythic rhythm buffed?
09/14/2015 07:23 AMPosted by BDF
Can I take this to mean that if you rely solely on Uliana 2pc to apply EP that all of them will become mythic rhythm buffed?


No.

If you apply EP with Uliana 2pc, only ONE of the 3rd hit targets will have a MR-buffed-EP. The others will not benefit from the 1.4 damage multiplier buff from MR. This is a problem if you apply EP with Uliana 2pc in large packs since there is a higher chance to spread the vanilla EP rather than the MR-buffed-EP.

09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Uliana 2pc with MR:
Applies a "fresh EP" to all targets without EP. ONE of those targets without a previous EP will have a MR-buffed-EP applied to them. MR is consumed in this case.
If all targets already have an existing EP on them, MR is -NOT- consumed, and no MR-buffed-EPs are applied. All existing EP durations refreshed.


This is why Davlok suggests this strategy when facing multiple target :

Step 1 : "Charge" your MR buff.
Step 2 : Apply one EP to a single target (it will consume and benefit from the MR buff). This can be done by actually using the skill Exploding Palm from your skill bar.
Step 3 : Use SSS to spread the MR-buffed-EP to other mobs in the screen (with the help of Gundgo's Gear).
Step 4 : Once the MR-buffed-EP has been spread to the whole screen, you can safely refresh it (without overriding it) with SSS and/or with the 3rd hit from your spirit generator. If new mobs join the fight, make sure to apply EP to them with SSS rather than a 3rd hit from your spirit generator.

09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Multi Target
Gain MR buff and run away with it. That means usually doing 2x 3 strikes and then dashing away. Find a new pack.
Apply MR-buffed-EP manually to a single target
SSS immediately to spread it from that single target to everything else.
Keep in mind, as new adds get dragged into combat, you will need to use SSS to spread your MR-EPs to them instead of using U2 if you want to ensure they all get the MR-EP.


Thank you for testing this complex mechanic Davlok. Finding out how to correctly benefit from another 1.4 damage multiplier on this build should really help people to push it to its limit.
No.

If you apply EP with Uliana 2pc, only ONE of the 3rd hit targets will have a MR-buffed-EP. The others will not benefit from the 1.4 damage multiplier buff from MR. This is a problem if you apply EP with Uliana 2pc in large packs since there is a higher chance to spread the vanilla EP rather than the MR-buffed-EP.


I see, thank you.

This is why Davlok suggests this strategy when facing multiple target :


I was talking about using a sunwuko monk in speed grfit groups w/furnace, so SSS stuff doesn't really help =(
and the fishing begins again :c hope for early power pylon + apply it to the boss -_-
Is the time limit of 5s still there for applying MR buff?
Thank god Davlok so much about MythicRhythm tip !!!

This MR-EP trick help me clearing GR65 no problem . Thank you again for all research !
Just want to stop in and say THANK YOU to Davlok for testing and posting about EP mechanics! This is a must read for all monks, and probably all those playing along side them as well!
Thank you Davlok for all the testing and clarification!

A couple of questions I could't find answers here:
1. How does Focus-Restraint set bonus work with SSS? Does resource spender buff applies on 1st SSS strike and remaining 6 (13 with LC) hits are buffed by additional 50% or that buff is applied after SSS animation ends?
2. Like doofmeister I wonder what amount of damage does SSS do with LC+U4 bonus combo: LC technically doubles total damage of SSS. Does this count in "total damage" stated in U4 description or each hit with U4 bonus still does basic 5677% damage?
09/13/2015 08:59 PMPosted by nand
So I assume if I want to completely optimize my damage, I would be replacing my mantra by blinding flash and hitting it before every third generator hit for an extra free 29% damage?

Also, how does Assimilation interact with EP? Favorably, I assume - as in, I would gain the assimilation stacks and then the applied EP would instantly snapshot these stacks?

Assimilation buff is gained after U2 EP is applied. And since U2 only refreshes active EP durations, you really need gain a mass of assimilation stacks along with a MR buff, then dash to a new pack, cast your Faith in the Light and THEN manually apply an EP (while assimilation buff and FitL are active) and use SSS to spread that to everything if you wanted to optimize your damage.

09/13/2015 10:08 PMPosted by doofmeister
Hello, I have some questions about SSS and Lion's Claw, sorry if these have been asked before:

Skill description of SSS states that it deals 5677% weapon damage over 7 strikes. Uliana's 4-pc set bonus states that SSS deals its total damage each hit. So from these descriptions, is it correct to say that each hit is total SSS damage divided by 7? (without U4 bonus and a white 2-hander equipped)

If I equip Lion's Claw alone, does the total SSS damage get divided by 14 per hit? (LC in MH and OH is empty)

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that SSS alternates between MH & OH. With LC equipped and without U4 bonus, how does the total SSS damage get divided among the 14 strikes when MH/OH alternates?

Right now I only have 3 pieces of Uliana's set. I also don't have Binding of the Lost or Madstone. So if I don't find a RoRG or get a 4th set piece, there is no real benefit to using LC, right? (aside from the slightly longer invulnerability animation frames)

Thanks in advance! :)

This post should cover most of your questions: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16527322731?page=4#67

Quick answers:
U6 without Lion's Claw = 5677% weapon damage per strike or 39,739% weapon damage total.
U6 with Lion's Claw = 11354% weapon damage per strike or 158,956% weapon damage total. (SSS does 4x the damage)
You gain no advantage to not equipping an offhand and using 1x 1hander only. SSS does alternate between both weapons, so your 1,3,5,7,9,11,13th strikes are with your Main Hand, while your 2,4,6,8,10,12,14th strikes are with your offhand. (if your MH was active to start).
Use whatever you can until you can complete U6 set really. LC does not really increase your invulnerability frames, as they just halfed the frames each strike takes ^_^;

09/14/2015 10:27 AMPosted by BDF
I was talking about using a sunwuko monk in speed grfit groups w/furnace, so SSS stuff doesn't really help =(

You'd probably need 2x large packs, so you would need to gather a large assimilation stack then dash back to pack your group is working on and tag them all within 5s, then run off and find another pack. I don't really play group sunwuko monk, so that is my guess! I don't think a Sunwuko monk using U2 to apply can use MR fully?

09/14/2015 07:23 PMPosted by dXter
Is the time limit of 5s still there for applying MR buff?

MR buff has no duration as far as I can tell.

09/15/2015 02:52 AMPosted by CrazyAnnus
Thank you Davlok for all the testing and clarification!

A couple of questions I could't find answers here:
1. How does Focus-Restraint set bonus work with SSS? Does resource spender buff applies on 1st SSS strike and remaining 6 (13 with LC) hits are buffed by additional 50% or that buff is applied after SSS animation ends?

No Problems! F/R buff is gained the moment right before a spender hits something, so all strikes of SSS would gain the 50% spender buff.
Can you still hit with spender (that normally applies EP via Uliana) after u spread ur MR buff with SSS without it overwritting the original MR that u had spread out? I'm confused

Like;

1. U gain MR buff, dash of and apply manual and use SSS
2. While ur at that pack that u applied MR on with SSS, can u still hit with the spender (without it overwriting the MR you applied in 1?)
3. Can u still use a spender to get your 50% from F/R ?

4. I'm still very confused, please help :(
Quick note on Assimilation, because there seems to be a great deal of confusion introduced as a side effect. Make sure to fully understand these rules first:

09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Manually Applying EP is the only way to overwrite an existing EP.
- Madstone's EP application does not overwrite an existing EP.
- Gungdo's EP detonation does not overwrite any existing EPs on targets caught in explosion.
- Gungdo's EP detonations refreshes the duration of any existing EPs caught in explosion
- Gungdo's EP detonations only applies its EP to the original target it detonated from and any targets without EP caught in explosion
- U2's EP application does not overwrite any exisiting EPs on targets hit.
- U2's EP application refreshes the duration of any existing EPs on targets hit.
- U2's EP application applies a "fresh" EP to all targets hit that do not have an EP active.

WotHF: Assimilation Order of Operations when using Uliana + MR
1. Punch 1
2. Punch 2 (7 mini-punches)
3. Punch 3
3a. MR Buff gained
3b-i. U2 refreshes (NOT overwrite) all active EPs on targets hit.
3b-ii. U2 applies *NEW* EP to all targets hit if they did not have EP already. -ONE- target that did not have EP already has a MR-enhanced EP applied. All remaining targets that did not have EP already only get a "plain"-EP. (MR consumed in this case)
3c. Assimilation buff gained.

So if you just dashed/TRed into a pack of 20 monsters WITHOUT EP and hit them all with your 3rd punch of Assimilation.
- If you were expecting the 20x EPs you just applied to have +100% damage... you did not. You applied 20x +0% damage EPs.
- If you were expecting all 20x EPs you just applied to have the +40% MR buff... you did not. You applied 1x MR-EP and 19x-"plain"-EPs.
- If you were expecting that continuing to apply U2 EPs would overwrite them with higher stacks of assimilation, that would not be the case, and you would just refresh the original 20x +0% EPs.

Lastly, you do NOT consume your MR buff if all targets you hit with the 3rd punch already had EP. So once you have spread your MR+Assimilation+(PowerPylon) buffed EPs, you can freely use your generator as much as you want to gain MR and buff your SSS since U2 will never overwrite your existing EPs. So you really only need to snapshot a massive assimilation stack + MR once per map if you can spread it correctly. All subsequent generator combos would only be to gain MR to buff your SSS. But when you do spawn that Power Pylon later in the map, you will need to re-snapshot the pylon, assimilation, and MR again.

Hope that clears things up a little ^_^;
09/15/2015 02:05 PMPosted by MeTaLiVo
Can you still hit with spender (that normally applies EP via Uliana) after u spread ur MR buff with SSS without it overwritting the original MR that u had spread out? I'm confused

Like;

1. U gain MR buff, dash of and apply manual and use SSS
2. While ur at that pack that u applied MR on with SSS, can u still hit with the spender (without it overwriting the MR you applied in 1?)
3. Can u still use a spender to get your 50% from F/R ?

4. I'm still very confused, please help :(


Yeah Im confused about the points Meta mentioned too, so it seems like once you get the MR buff up on a pack your just going to keep dragging mobs from one to the next and just using SSS to spread the MR-EP, so that means we won;t be using our generator no more? (ie: no generator buff from F+R, no assimilation stacks)

Also, the 2 points below seem to contradict each other and I just wanted to clarify, in the single target scenario if you use U2 to apply the MR-EP and then you manually apply EP to the same mob it will overwrite the MR-EP.

In the Multi-target scenario you use U2 and apply MR-EP on some mobs then dash away to a new pack and manually apply EP to one of the mobs, which will not overwrite in this case since this fresh mob has no EP, correct?

09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Single Target
U2 will apply MR-buffed EP after the 3rd generator strike.
(If you apply EP manually after the very first 3 hit combo, you will actually be overwriting a MR-EP with a non-MR-EP.)


09/13/2015 08:26 PMPosted by Davlok
Multi Target
Gain MR buff and run away with it. That means usually doing 2x 3 strikes and then dashing away. Find a new pack.
Apply MR-buffed-EP manually to a single target
This post should cover most of your questions: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16527322731?page=4#67

Quick answers:
U6 without Lion's Claw = 5677% weapon damage per strike or 39,739% weapon damage total.
U6 with Lion's Claw = 11354% weapon damage per strike or 158,956% weapon damage total. (SSS does 4x the damage)
You gain no advantage to not equipping an offhand and using 1x 1hander only. SSS does alternate between both weapons, so your 1,3,5,7,9,11,13th strikes are with your Main Hand, while your 2,4,6,8,10,12,14th strikes are with your offhand. (if your MH was active to start).
Use whatever you can until you can complete U6 set really. LC does not really increase your invulnerability frames, as they just halfed the frames each strike takes ^_^;


Thanks, dude. Was hoping for a bit more non-U4/non-U6 perspective just to see how useful (or useless) LC is without BotL/Madstone.

Superb job on the MR/EP guide, keep it up!
Awesome stuff Davlok! Guys like you make the Monk community what it is. Keep up the good work man.
Let me see if I understand.

The proccess is:

1) hit a lot of monsters with the generator in order to get the MR and Assimilation Buffs.
If you have a Power Pylon, grab it.

2) dash to the next pack of monsters, (use Blinding flash if u have it) manually apply EP to one of them, then SSS it to apply and spread the buffed EP.

3) Release your fury hitting everything with SSS & generator while trying to stay alive.

Am I right?
Where F+R damage is, if you can't snapshot it? Could you replace them?
FnR bonus, you want to keep them up all the time to buff all damages.

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