WARNING: Sand Dwellers, Reflect & You...

Hardcore
The effect: Running a low level trial, instantly killed by reflect playing a WoL monk with 24M toughness and ~800k damage.

The cause: After doing a little research it appears that sand dwellers and possibly other types of mobs (dune dervishes) can reflect projectiles back at you, which is fine. The problem is that they reflect the full (?) amount of your attack back at you or other players regardless of difficulty making it very easy to be 1 shot with an appropriately geared character for hardcore. This is nothing like the elite reflect affix which doesn't phase most hardcore players unless in very high greater rifts.

While farming GR25-26 to upgrade gems I instantly died in a trail at around level 14-18. No latency issues, I just fell over instantly without warning. I have played hardcore almost exclusively since launch on a variety of characters logging literally hundreds of hours of HC play and never experienced anything like this before.

This is not an unknown issue, I'm just trying to bring a little more attention to it since it's an obvious threat to hardcore players.

Here are a few more posts reporting the same issue as well as a video of a wizard getting 1 shot by it's own reflected magic missile on a sand dweller.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13686040361

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/14609930852

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15698856417

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16543164270

video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoChwOBz9UQ

Please add anymore information you can about specifics of this mechanic or experiences/deaths resulting from this type of reflect.

This is clearly out of tune with other damage output and need some attention.

=)
Reflect missiles works on WoL now? How?
i was using Tzo Krin's Gaze to cast WoL at your enemy making it a ranged attack. don't know if that makes a difference.
03/06/2015 06:52 PMPosted by Bryanw1995
Reflect missiles works on WoL now? How?


The fire rune explosive blasts definitely can be reflected
03/06/2015 07:54 PMPosted by Meerkat
i was using Tzo Krin's Gaze to cast WoL at your enemy making it a ranged attack. don't know if that makes a difference.


As far as I know, It doesn't make any difference, only projectiles from fire/cold bell reflect back, Gaze or no Gaze.

From my tests against dune dervishes with every rune+with and without Gaze, I haven't managed to get actual bell to reflect back, only those projectiles.
DH's and Wizards (and anyone who regularly plays with them) have known about this for eons going all the way back to the Vanilla days. (I think EmmetOtter posted a great list of the attacks that can be reflected a while back.)

Be careful around enemies who can reflect attacks if:
-you are ranged attacker using a reflectable attack.
-you are in a party with someone who uses reflectable ranged attacks.
-you or someone in your party has an attack or weapon that procs a reflectable ranged attack.
Died yesterday on my monk with 30M toughness
Was facerolling T4 in public and suddenly BOOM
I even remembered this reflect thing from long ago but it slipped off my mind. 2 things: didn't expect this on monk and it was a huge unexpected burst compared to this content difficulty
Had to do some research to learn what actually happened. But it's kinda nice to have a character in the hall of glory which was "slain by unknown"
oh no reflect actually reflects attacks.

shocking, the world must know.

bryan especially will want to know about this information in case he runs into the act 2 keywarden :P
one of my most memorable deaths of HC was actually only at lvl 35. playing DH (as always) and I managed to kill myself and all 3 of random public team mates doing that resp chest event in desolate sands that summons all the Dervish things. ball lightning/hellfire wrecked us all it was hilarious.
Remember when hellfire rings first came out? You could wipe a party so fast, hahaha.
Killing yourself is bad enough, killing someone else who was doing nothing wrong really sucks. Wiped my party's wiz using RF against the A2 kw once.

Now I stick with grenades against the spinners and the rock golems.
03/08/2015 10:29 AMPosted by Isolation
oh no reflect actually reflects attacks.

shocking, the world must know.

I think that's not the problem, rather the WoL fire rune being a projectile. Wasn't that intuitive to me.
so yeah, the problem is not the reflect itself but the fact that you can EASILY 1 shot yourself even though you are very tanky for the content you're doing. i was nowhere near optimized in damage with 24mill thoughness.

although i have to admit it is kinda funny to wipe out an entire group including yourself with dune dervish reflect. albeit not at the time i'm sure.

if this worked like a elite reflect affix or even 2x or possibly 4x as much i don't think it would be a huge problem, but it seems like it reflects the full damage of the attack back at you which is easily 2-3 mill++ after you factor in elemental dmg and buffs.

so basically it's really risky to run certain projectile builds that can get reflected or to run in groups with people that have those type of attacks. it's simply out of tune, that is my point.
The Sand dwellers and the Spinner guys (whatever the Act 2 Keywarden is) can both deflect/bounce missiles in the same way. That's been known for a long time.

But don't worry, you won't necessarily kill yourself fighting one if you're careless. You might also kill one of your teammates instead.

Speaking from personal experience.
I knew about the dervishes, but not the sand dwellers... is there a particular animation I should look out for to let me know when they start reflecting?
03/10/2015 05:54 AMPosted by Grayle
I knew about the dervishes, but not the sand dwellers... is there a particular animation I should look out for to let me know when they start reflecting?

They get a "swirling vortex" around their gut. Missiles will bounce off it.
May have happened to me with sand dweller and not noticed, but had two dervishes in a t4 rift both take me out in one hit with reflect. Luckily I expect weird things to happen and had my demon hunter equipped with the "one free resurrection" passive, but still. This is so unbalanced that it has to be called a bug. You can't build a game around stats with permanent death and then add in a few russian roulette elements. I mean they did, but you would think they would strive to remove such elements. I'm hoping this issue gets fixed soon.
03/08/2015 10:29 AMPosted by Isolation
bryan especially will want to know about this information in case he runs into the act 2 keywarden :P


Wait...he doesn't throw daggers. Especially not in his off-hand. And it would do like 15 damage?
A2 keywarden also has reflect missles ability. Don't ask me how I know this.
My monk died in GR85 yesterday with nothing near him. Didn't know that reflects could hit your teammates. Even worse is that this mechanic bypasses your cheat death (NDE, Awareness.)

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum