Season exclusives are hurting non season experience

General Discussion
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04/17/2015 09:33 PMPosted by Divine
If even one person stuck around on non-season, at least I'd have someone to play with ;.;

So you wish to drag other people down with you, to suffer and complain in the dead game mode of self pity and loathing?

I enjoy playing on seasons, I enjoy playing with a bunch of other people. Removing seasonal items might make some amount of players play on non season instead. This would make me enjoy the game less as I would have less people to play with. Every concession Blizzard might make to you and your ilks demands would negatively affect the enjoyment of the majority of players (seasonal players).

Completely removing non season would solve all of these problems, and get rid of you untermensch that only like to cry and complain on the forums instead of playing the more competitive game mode.
Hey Hopukka, welcome back !

I gave my thoughts previously on several points you brought up on this page again, let me know what you think

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16952155685?page=5#88

04/18/2015 07:44 AMPosted by Hopukka
So you wish to drag other people down with you, to suffer and complain in the dead game mode of self pity and loathing?


Or maybe he just wishes the people that plays non seasonal to have a meaningful experience? Most of the threads like this dont actively seek to grief any player base in particular but to seek for ways to improve experience issues ideally offering solutions sometimes, not just diminishing remarks.

04/18/2015 07:44 AMPosted by Hopukka
Removing seasonal items might make some amount of players play on non season instead. This would make me enjoy the game less as I would have less people to play with.


Fair point but for what is worth this is an issue developers introduced not the players, so in any scenario where you have troubles keeping up with your friendlist we would have to bring this back to the devs.

There was once 1 sole game mode and issues about friend list splitting werent as big before.

04/18/2015 07:44 AMPosted by Hopukka
Completely removing non season would solve all of these problems, and get rid of you untermensch that only like to cry and complain on the forums instead of playing the more competitive game mode.


Think about the situation like this, nonseasonal mode was the main game experience for 2 years, why does it have to be eliminated now against an immature and still evolving mode (season length its not even agreed upon yet and harsh bugs have ruined the last 2 seasons leaderboards completely), just based on the heavy bugs and exploits alone I can tell you right now, seasons (or what you call competitive mode) its not ready to be the main experience of diablo 3 just yet.

Furthermore When did we all decide seasonal experience would replace the original game mode? or when developers stated that intention at all?
Do they want players to play nonseasons too?
There are no goals to achieve on nonseasons as well?
Is a good nonseasonal experience a goal worth accomplishing for the developers?

04/18/2015 07:44 AMPosted by Hopukka
Completely removing non season would solve all of these problems, and get rid of you untermensc


Given all mentioned above, plain exile is really your best shot as a solution that works for everyone?

Personally I like an approach like this better:

04/11/2015 10:00 PMPosted by Lane
I'd love the option to just port my character out of seasons whenever I want (which would be when I have the new items) so he doesn't have to be there all 4 months.

As it Gives room for both modes to coexist.
Hopukka, please refrain from further trolling in this thread

Thanks!
[quote]


Completely removing non season would solve all of these problems, and get rid of you untermensch that only like to cry and complain on the forums instead of playing the more competitive game mode.


This is probably one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. I'm actually fine with seasons and play a little (non-competitively) but if they removed non-season I would literally uninstall the game since I wouldn't see the point of playing anymore.
04/17/2015 10:34 PMPosted by Dogf

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Stop focusing on what other players are doing and focus on what you want to do.

... a statement that season-exclusive advocates should have tattooed on their foreheads.

Why does it matter if a bunch of non-seasonal players can find the same items that you can?


I think you're confused. Remember, I don't play Seasons.

04/17/2015 10:34 PMPosted by Dogf

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Right, it's not a big deal. So why are you making it into one?

If it "isn't a big deal", then it should be an equally small deal if both seasonal and non-seasonal mode had the same loot table.

You can't claim it's "not a big deal" on our behalf, sorry. Having access to less loot in a loot hunting game _is_ a big deal.


Colt said it wasn't a big deal. Are you going to tell him he can't claim that on your behalf, too?
04/17/2015 10:50 PMPosted by Colt
04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Seasons won't be a half year anymore. Hell, Season 2 was.. what, 7 weeks?


04/07/2015 05:04 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Expect Season 3 to be at least 4 months long.


Its the AT LEAST part that really gives a clue here.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Was your game experience diminished because some guy you never heard of (lots of them, probably) found that awesome Furnace before you did? No. Why, then, does it matter if some guy gets Season Item X before you do?


On the furnace example I was just unlucky, on the season item however developers made it impossible for my non seasonal character to get it, theres a difference. Besides its not important the season player got it first, what its important is that nonseasonal isnt able to get it at all, until developers say so. Why?


Saying you're not able to get it at all is the exact same as saying they got it first, you know. The thing is that it doesn't really matter whether they got it first because you aren't playing against them anyway. Besides, now that we have a few Seasons under our belts, you'll be able to search for the items you just gained access to while they're off playing the next Season.. and not using all those items they just got.

As to why.. because they want there to be an incentive to play Seasons. Adding some gear to a gear hunting game is the most obvious and simple way to do it. It's pretty sound logic, actually.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Stop focusing on what other players are doing and focus on what you want to do.


The focus of the thread its not on what other players are doing, the focus is what non seasonal players cant do, and they cant play with all the items of the game. again Why?


I'm not going to say why a third time. I get that you don't like the answer, but the answer is there.


Colt:
having available a complete item pool has a higher chance of an enjoyable experience in a game like diablo 3 (this makes sense right?).

...


Ok, what class do you play? maybe we can tailor a few examples where the item diversity could benefit your nonseasonal experience.


I already gave an example of that myself - the Season 1 Crusader Condemn shield.. Still wasn't enough to get me to play Seasons. Neither are the new shield bash bracers, which I believe are Season 3 exclusive.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
it's not a big deal. So why are you making it into one?


Because in a scenario where such items are indeed insignificant then the exclusivity its not justified and it shouldnt exist on first place, itd be just more efficient for everyone and it keeps both game modes rich in content (and not one richer than the other)


In the first Season, maybe, but now that we're underway you're still getting richer content just as often.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
It's a small incentive for people to play Seasons. See, Blizzard knows that people are after items, and they'll do whatever they need to in order to get those items.


Sure thing, by acknowledging that people care and chase after items, can you then understand the issues it brings when choosing nonseasonal mode with an uncomplete item pool?


Hence the next part of my post you quoted.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
You need to figure out whether item hunting and having a shot at getting the most recent loot is the overriding fun factor for you in this game. If it is, then play Seasons. If it isn't, then don't.


Item hunting and recent loot acquiring should be ALWAYS a fun factor present on this game regardless of the game mode chosen, otherwise it would be a whole different genre, its right the first Diablo 3 pillar of design presented by lead designer Josh Mosqueira.


I didn't say a fun factor. I said the overriding fun factor. As in, the thing you play the game for most. For instance, I played WoW to raid, and therefore I was forced to put up with all the crap they forced on raiders the past few expansions that didn't exist early on. Same principle here - you want the newest stuff the fastest, and you're going to have to put up with some crap to get it. Or decide that putting up with that crap isn't worth it.

By making non seasons a less viable choice to experience fully the item hunting and recent loot acquiring, I think they are creating an offense to their own philosophies and to the richness of the nonseasonal experience.


Maybe if non-Seasonal players never got access to Seasonal loot, I'd agree with that.

04/17/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Orrion
Season 1 had the Condemn shield for Crusaders, which was great at the time. It was arguably the best build for Crusaders until they massively buffed the Roland set with this last patch. Did that shield get me to play Seasons? Nope.


So a small question here then, would you say it would have been fun for your NS crusader to have that shield back then?


Yes. However, the items aren't enough incentive for me to play Seasons and the wait doesn't bother me.
04/18/2015 03:47 PMPosted by Orrion
now that we have a few Seasons under our belts, you'll be able to search for the items you just gained access to while they're off playing the next Season.


Yes but sadly that still doesnt fix the permament offset in diversity between the game modes remember?
Its not just the frequency of content updates what is discussed here but the availability of said content at any given point in time, 1000 items on non season vs 1010 on seasonal, wich leads to the next point.

04/18/2015 03:47 PMPosted by Orrion
it doesn't really matter whether they got it first because you aren't playing against them anyway


Yes it doesnt matter (or at least I dont care about them really) and yes Im not playing against them either.

But Im playing against a better version of myself, my own autocritic strives me to push my nonseasonal character to be the very best it can be (thats where the fantasy plays a large role) and I can only fully achieve that by making the best use of all the items and tools the game has to offer, I just happen to be informed that developers introduced things on seasons that could help me on this goal and progress much quicker and more smoothly if they were to be implemented on nonseasons today, but sadly that isnt the case and I cant make full use of such meaningful resources until the expiration date they imposed runs out.

I know you wouldnt mind but do you believe all non season players enjoy and embrace such situation with a sincere happy smile on their face?

You seem to be suggesting overall to every nonseason player on that situation to ignore all kinds of information about the latest exclusive items, to ostracize themselves from any news or upcoming content on the game, do their little thing inside a nonseason bubble, let go of any slight ambition of progress remotely connected to accessing the latest exclusive items any sooner than what developers allow and somehow still manage to stay enganged until they open the gates for content they released 4 months ago and pretend any of it its still new and exciting while at the same time they introduce on the new season the next set of items you wont get to touch until another 4 months later?

If thats what it will come down to for all non seasonal players, well, no offense intended but that sounds to be among the most passive solutions for the item diversity we could ever come up with to say the least.

Wouldnt it be better to seek a way to unify the key components of the experiences (item pool being one) so they are of equal or comparable quantity & quality at any given moment and somehow with other clever mechanics make each game mode complement the other instead?

What do you think about this btw?

04/11/2015 10:00 PMPosted by Lane
I'd love the option to just port my character out of seasons whenever I want (which would be when I have the new items) so he doesn't have to be there all 4 months.
I'm one of those in nonseason who's in a my own bubble.

Reason I don't play seasons is that I can't commit the time to play and level a character with season-only gear. ie, S2 (albeit a short season) I got a L70 monk, and that's it - all noob gear that wouldnt do T1 at all.

Not only that, I would say 80-90% of our active clan members are in season mode. This is even more annoying now as I've got less people to play with in the clan pool... mean I have less reason to play this game, as solo gets a boring fast.

Also, add 4 more torment levels. Ubers are a joke now with a half-decent toon now.
...and then rename Torment -> Monster Power.

I still don't understand the arbitrary 6 levels of Torment. Should have left it as is!
04/10/2015 11:47 AMPosted by Colt
If they want to enhance the atractiveness of seasons, there are another game defining factors like customization, titles, achievements, experience, monsters, maps, and events they can come up with, if ALL of that paired up with a fresht start isnt enough then season as a game mode shouldnt exist, its the fact they mess with item diversity in particular that really creates an offense to the game, to the original game mode and ultimately to you or me as diablo 3 players imo.


I know for a fact that both ladders and it's brother dueling is what is keeping D2 alive. Without ladders D2 would've died a long time ago, because ladders brother dueling couldn't keep that game alive on it's own.

So what would you do in order to keep this game alive long after the devs are done making new things for this game?

Just continually playing the PvE side will not cut it. Also the devs might not ever add any other kind of PvP at all. So without seasons brother PvP what is gonna keep this game alive long after the devs have stopped adding new things in it?

04/10/2015 11:47 AMPosted by Colt
^ This particular idea would be very interesting to explore as it would be a perfect compromise between the 2 game modes (one in wich I see myself playing them both actively) and it could work as long as porting only works on 1 way and it succesfuly extracts the seasonal progress of the character completely to avoid item duplication issues of course. Maybe even if devs see it fit porting could have tighter rules like "You can only port one char in the whole season" or "You can only port once per month" All in all Id be fine for workarounds like this for the item exclusivity even if it required a little more work on the non seasonal players end.


I like this workaround because it still keeps seasons with season only loot but allows players to move their seasonal characters over to non season.
04/10/2015 11:47 AMPosted by Colt
TLDR:

As an original mode player seasons are splitting my items, my builds and my friend list.
Remove atleast the item exclusivity introduced on season after 2-3 weeks of season launch to keep original mode relevant or give nonseasonal players a sensible workaround the item exclusivity


OCFTC: (other cool ideas from the community):

04/11/2015 10:00 PMPosted by Lane
I'd love the option to just port my character out of seasons whenever I want (which would be when I have the new items) so he doesn't have to be there all 4 months.


==========================================================

TSWREC (Too short want to read explained case) :


I believe this has been debated before (an prolly for a good reason) as I also bet heavy debate occurs even internally on blizzard but I wanted to put togheter my thoughts on one comprehensive thread and just curious to see how other players react to my personal concerns, so I start with a community manager post about what season rewards its supposed to be.

03/31/2015 03:08 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Not everyone may like chasing after new transmogs, getting a first go at new Legendary items, or competing on Seasonal Leaderboards, and that’s okay.

We never want these rewards and activities to be so amazing that you feel you must play Seasons, though; they're meant more to be the icing rather than the cake itself.


I wish currently It were the case where seasons are just an alternative experience just as good as non season can be thus creating the diversity and choice, but I believe that statement is far from the reality and heres why:

Philosophies behind seasons are all nice and dandy, but aside from the fresh start at the end of the day this new game mode translates in practical terms to a drastic change in the core game rules:

seasons = get the most complete item pool VS non season = always have uncomplete item pool.

Designers endeavour to improve the game diversity trough fun/powerful legendaries is frequently contradicting season exclusive items intent to not being the "cake" itself, not to mention that you are not only effectively splitting the item pool for several months but further divide the player base as well, sometimes I cant play with half of my friend list because they are torn between season or non season and it starts to get annoying to group up quickly to the point that even some people feel betrayed indirectly by their friends that actively choose to play a different mode that they may not be able to follow by different reasons.

I think developers have to compromise more energetically with this issue, maybe season could have exclusive items for the first 3 weeks of season and then items roll on the non season pool and everyone wins (thats what Id like at least).

Season get their beloved "fresh start"+ temporal exclusivity so they can meassure their e-peens from scratch and original mode stays actually relevant, developers have to remember too that this is also a character progression game and the mode they are protecting the least is the one where you have accumulated the most progression (the original mode!!) represented trough your pletora of items and XP collected since your D3 experience started.

On that note a significant part of my original diablo 3 experience is the availability of the varied items I have accumulated since the game launched, even linking silly things like my favourite rare spirit stone called "Monk's Belief", or my rare boots called " The kicks" , or my rare gloves called "Powerful carriers" but more importantly than those shenanigans I have an extensive enough repertoire of items to try and adapt accordingly to the game objective Im playing and being able to easily switch out builds, elemental bonuses,primary/secondary affixes through different item versions its extremely valuable too.

Not having available the complete set of items its hurting my diablo 3 experience simply because at best Im missing new things to try and at worst my builds arent complete until season is over. Case in point, my raiment monk build wont be complete until I get season 3 spirit guards and meanwhile Ill have to suck it for X amount of months (wich in this kind of game that we sometimes play on a daily basis, its relatively forever) and trust me this wait its no fun.

So when the senior game designer shares an insight like this:

04/07/2015 05:04 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Expect Season 3 to be at least 4 months long.


I follow my opinion with this open question,

  • How long a game mode like seasons should be that more than one player actively wishes for it to be over, sometimes even before it starts?

  • Its not about the destination, its about the journey


    Then another open question,

  • What journey expects to those that follow the original game mode with a limited item pool?


  • The item experience specially its an essential & big component of the game and it shouldnt be polarized like that and punished for nearly half a year for not choosing a specific mode.

    If they want to enhance the atractiveness of seasons, there are another game defining factors like customization, titles, achievements, experience, monsters, maps, and events they can come up with, if ALL of that paired up with a fresht start isnt enough then season as a game mode shouldnt exist, its the fact they mess with item diversity in particular that really creates an offense to the game, to the original game mode and ultimately to you or me as diablo 3 players imo.

    Even if we can all agree these exclusive items arent that big of a deal then we should also be able to imagine a reverse scenario where the item exclusivity is non existant

    04/11/2015 08:35 PMPosted by Gunghoe
    Don't complain that you don't get it sooner than later. You still get to have the meta of X season just a season delayed


    As Newskin mentioned, just the fact of delaying the items alone already impacts the experience of non season players as when they receive the season items it wont even be on the same context at all as seasonal ones, sometimes resulting in non seasonal not even enjoying the same metagame as its changed between patches and all of that resulting in a meaningless polarization of the diablo experience and effectively reducing the novelty and sense of coolness for seasonal items that get rolled on non season.

    04/14/2015 02:07 AMPosted by Khronos
    I don't think this topic needs a thread.It's a simple choice,play season or don't play season.


    Play "optional" complete item pool or dont play "optional" complete item pool, cant make the issue any clearer than that.

    I think the meat and potatoes on this topic about choice, is that True choice exists when all options have equal value (or a relatively comparable one ) and on this kind of game item diversity really holds a lot of value by itself.

    When we introduce item exclusivity on seasons that alone creates a distorted illusion of choice between the game modes that holds a negative impact when choosing the non seasonal experience over the seasonal on the long run.

    In other words actively choosing nonseasonal mode holds less value right now in terms of the item diversity & coolness (one of the key components in the game) and for that reason its not an ideal true choice as you are simply missing out something really valuable, the diversity itself.

    The decision making isnt the deal here, the issue is why this problem was created by the devs on first place separating the item and player experience like that and affecting the experience of the original game mode among other things as a result.

    Just remember that not only players but developers can be wrong too at times and I think this is a perfectly valid case that may apply to a considerable amount of players, specially those that follow the original game mode. All in all, personally this whole situation actually saddens me to a great point and when reflecting about it makes me feel old timer players like me arent going to be supported as much anymore :( perhaps someday a smarter person than me will be able to make a better case (as some of my thoughts arent receiving much love), perhaps a developer reads this and can produce a healthy debate internally or perhaps its time to resign to the fact that my non season experience wont really matter anymore, but then again I constantly see game designers defending even the smallest of aspects like gold find as a choice, isnt it worth it to defend the quality experience of the whole original game mode as a choice?

    ========================================================

    COOL IDEAS FROM THE COMMUNITY:

    04/11/2015 10:00 PMPosted by Lane
    I'd love the option to just port my character out of seasons whenever I want (which would be when I have the new items) so he doesn't have to be there all 4 months.


    ^ This particular idea would be very interesting to explore as it would be a perfect compromise between the 2 game modes (one in wich I see myself playing them both actively) and it could work as long as porting only works on 1 way and it succesfuly extracts the seasonal progress of the character completely to avoid item duplication issues of course. Maybe even if devs see it fit porting could have tighter rules like "You can only port one char in the whole season" or "You can only port once per month" All in all Id be fine for workarounds like this for the item exclusivity even if it required a little more work on the non seasonal players end.


    Couldnt agree more!!!!
    I like the race seasons provides, marking your times. Progression at 6,12,24,48 and so on.

    What I don't like is the community being split in half.
    The Seasons exclusive items are fine by me, BUT for the seasons following up to this one there's been some GR changing gear and I don't like that.

    The Exp buff for seasons, and exponential so the race to 70 would take zero time, should be two weeks max, up to this point there hasn't been a seasons buff introduced. Which we well get eventually.

    Good additions to Seasons, would be adding 5-6 more types of monsters. More maps, specifically ones that play with Point of View.
    Wow, what a walltext of useless crying. You don't seem like you're old enough to remember D2's ladder.
    04/25/2015 12:36 PMPosted by Cabbage
    Wow, what a walltext of useless crying. You don't seem like you're old enough to remember D2's ladder.
    you seem to the old enough to remember how reading works
    I can't fathom why people are complaining, serious children here. All the whiners keep throwing around this "half" figure of non season players. i don't know for sure but i would venture a guess of 90% play seasons. I don't see a reason to not play it, it takes less than a week of casually playing to gear up to t6, and its fun doing so in most peoples opinion. if it bothers you THAT much, either the game is simply not for you, or you haven't even given season a good enough try. you are not being gimped you are gimping yourself. its like complaining about being cold but refusing to use a blanket that requires the most simple effort to obtain.
    04/17/2015 08:42 PMPosted by Colt
    That still doesnt offset the current difference of diversity between nonseasonal and seasons, let me explain the thread point in a different way.

    Issue its not if they added 1,000 items last patch for both modes, issue is :

    Non season will have 1,000 items available

    Season will have 1,010 items available

    Season will always have more items because they deliberately add an extra 10 seasonal exclusive items and therefore, non season is missing deliberately 10 items that could have been part of the nonseasonal experience as well.

    This items could benefit the nonseason experience?
    Do you think having available the whole item pool its important for nonseasonal?
    What would happen in a scenario where Nonseason had the exact 1,010 items as well?


    Colt, my brother....we have very rarely disagreed on any topic throughout the past few years and I can honestly see and respect your point and understand it but I cannot fully agree with it. I will explain for you bro....

    You have always played monk exclusively and yes, the spirit guards would be amazing for high GR's that you enjoy rolling but there MUST be an incentive for season's or else no one would ever do them. Transmog's, achievements, and the likes is not quite enough except for the most hardcore of players as the D2 devs found out in short order many years ago. Seasons has always been about the special items, some certainly build defining as you so vocally expressed. I agree that they would be amazing for you to have right now and that it would be tremendously painful to have to start all over again and find all that crazy gear all over again to boot...oh I understand you bro and I agree it would be nice to have a compromise somewhere but to me, it has been so crystal clear to me for so many years now for ladders/seasons that it has become expected to old school guys like me and I am sure I am not alone in my thinking. When I first heard they were introducing seasons, my first thought was special items...

    Where I differ is that I play all the classes, and every season I have rolled a class I do not play very often and in the case of S3, a wizard. Ever thought about changing it up just for fun? When I was with you at BoG, we had to be efficient, we had to be on the ball, and most importantly, you had to be a good person and player. Not often did we have the opportunity to learn a new spec with other people or try another class just because things were becoming a little stale. That would normally lead to not being invited back to play with some of those players especially if they did not know you very well....and to me bro, that is how I look at seasons, it is my opportunity to play a new spec, a new class, a new build just like how I approached ladders in D2. We did not have the opportunity to respec back then like we do now so to me now it is the fun factor and the opportunity to get some game time in I normally would not have done otherwise. That is just me though and I have taken a lot of fun from that fact. We differ here and that is 100% alright...:-)

    Overall though brother, I am 50-50 on the subject...as a non-season and HC player as well, it is a little crappy and unfair that we have to wait awhile for some really good items and I understand the splitting of game modes being a pain as well but remember one thing...as good friends, if you ever asked me to do some non-season GR's, you know exactly what the answer would be. That is how it has always been to me and always will be...that will always be the ultimate compromise Colt, the most important reason why us Day 1 guys are still going strong no matter what happens...for each other. Without each other, I think a lot of us would have packed it in like the other 10 million did when the inferno wall hit us hard...:-P

    See you in game soon!!
    Cheers.
    Players should choose their side together with their friends if it matter...if they don't want to choose with you, they are not the gaming buddies you say they should be.

    The choice is still in your hands. play or don't play, play seasonal, or non-seasonal you may choose to not be split at all.
    04/27/2015 01:11 PMPosted by ShadoW
    Players should choose their side together with their friends if it matter...if they don't want to choose with you, they are not the gaming buddies you say they should be.

    The choice is still in your hands. play or don't play, play seasonal, or non-seasonal you may choose to not be split at all.


    That is precisely what happened to me and my close circle of friends that have played since the beginning. I personally did not want to do season's at all considering I had already 14 fully geared characters that needed play time and considering that not one was power levelled, I was dreading another 4-5 hours of hard climbing to 70. Basically, it boiled down to 3 of us wanting seasons and 2 of us that did not with 1 that did not care either way....we have a majority rules system in place so needless to say, I was doing seasons....so yes, it does matter a lot....:-)
    04/27/2015 12:50 PMPosted by Odineva
    there MUST be an incentive for season's or else no one would ever do them

    Like all other modes, the incentive should be the fun inherent in the mode itself.

    In any case, exclusive loot is the wrong incentive. Loot diversity and collection is the entire point of the game - having "more loot mode" and "less loot mode" makes "less loot mode" virtually irrelevant right off the bat.

    I've suggested other incentives such as XP and drop buffs - perhaps the devs should look into those.

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