So UE is considered fine but Morticks was OP?

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As silly as this sounds.

I think the main problem with UE is that it can run Focus and Restraint with minimal drawback because UE's build is so passive (relatively low interactivity with other items) that RoRG is not required whatsover. Also, the way most UE builds go there's always a permanent uptime on bastions of will.

Personally I think its focus and restraint that's overpowered cuz UE doesn't seem to do as much damage without it.

>.> I think same can be said for alot of classes.
04/14/2015 07:23 PMPosted by innervation
04/14/2015 07:07 PMPosted by TheTias
Here's the difference: UE is a set. It takes up six equipment slots. And no, you don't have room for RoRG - those ring slots are needed for Focus/Restraint. UE also only affects your generators and multishot, and it does not modify multishot in any way, shape, or form by way of adding more runes to the one chosen by the player.

Mortick's however, gave WotB every rune, something typically only given by set bonuses


Saying UE 'only' affects x and y is a dishonest way to frame the discussion, because if the bottom line damage is what it is (and I know well what it is) then I really don't care what the process is. If an item set changes just one rune of one skill but you get 1.2 bil dps single target (doubling below 55% hp), how is that appreciably different than modifying 3 skills, or 5?

The OP is right. You look at the mobs and they fall over.

You're have a case for them taking the bracers out, but you can't defend what UE is doing right now in terms of invalidating wizards on a class that has been invalidating them for months (years).


Finally, someone gets it. The end result is all that matters with builds. It doesn't matter how you get there. You can't look at items in a vacuum without considering what build they modify and what they allow the player to do. Another way of looking at it, is that the 6th piece of UE you pick up is too OP, it needs to be nerfed, because the end result set is too powerful. Does that sound familiar? Swap Moricks Bracer for 6th piece of UE and you have the exact same situation.
04/15/2015 01:23 PMPosted by LordDemacus
That was the intention as a certain MVP believed that using perfectly rolled stats to compare was "unfair".


No, using perfect BiS stats to compare to non-perfectly BiS stats is unfair. And very unrealistic. It was done purely to sensationalize a point, but in doing so exaggerated to the point where any realism was lost. You do realize just how stupidly rare Kridershot is, right? Now try getting a perfectly rolled Kridershot with +12 disc on it. You'd be lucky to find one with the 2000% legendary find buff from the PTR lasting several months. Using that kind of sensationalism to attempt to prove the point fails spectacularly due to the unrealistic comparisons.

04/15/2015 01:17 PMPosted by LordDemacus
Since barbs were nerfed due to the outstanding performance of the class in the hands of one skilled player with perfect equipment, then using perfect rolls to compare other classes - and whether or not they warrant a nerf - is perfectly reasonable.


It isn't reasonable when those classes aren't in BiS gear and you know it. Using an outlier as "proof" nearly always invariably fails.

04/15/2015 01:23 PMPosted by LordDemacus
To be frank, there's a lot about the PTR that we will never know due to blizzard nerfing everything in one fell swoop and fixing the double dipping bug.


This is one of the things I have a beef with (against the devs, not the players). The devs turned more than one knob at a time when what they should have done was fix the bug, re-test, and then fix whatever was still causing any anomalous results. Instead they fixed the bug and undertuned the set together, just as you mentioned. They initially did the same thing with Nat's too, and the only reason Nat's survived the cut was because the devs realized they had somehow made the set damage bonuses additive rather than multiplicative and fixed it (for all sets afflicted with that particular malady).

This is one of the reasons players think the devs can't balance. They overtune (which is fine since it's PTR and you can graduate downward from the top if necessary), but then they massively undertune by changing too many variables at once. Or vice versa and you have royally OP stuff happening. The thing is, they can balance, it's just that they're going about it in the worst possible way, i.e. sledgehammer instead of a scalpel.

04/15/2015 01:54 PMPosted by Philoi
A lot of good stuff here. Question though, why do people assume you got to save the ring slots for Focus/Restraint?


You have to use Focus/Restraint. That 2.25x multiplier doesn't seem huge, but it's factored in after everything else is multiplied and added together. As an (admittedly exaggerated) example, if you hit for 1 billion damage without F/R's bonuses active, with them both active you'd hit for 2.25 billion. That's a really significant boost there and it far outweighs what an SoJ can provide since F/R works on all monsters, not just elites. In fact a lot of classes' builds require F/R for optimal output. It's the melee classes that can't really afford to use F/R, at least in solo games because Unity is still required due to unavoidable infinitely scaling damage.

Focus/Restraint did get one "nerf" (I'd call it more an adjustment) in that originally you could fire off a generator or spender without hitting anything to get the buffs, but in the last PTR push and on Live you have to hit with your attack first before the buff becomes active. It took the cheese out of those two items and kind of needed to be done.

04/15/2015 04:26 PMPosted by SSmashedBros
It has nothing to do with the bracers, the real problem is perma CC horrify making DH's lack of toughness irrelevant.


I'll gladly see perma-CC gone from the game in all forms if the damage is toned down to where all classes can survive by playing skillfully instead of instagibbed by unavoidable damage that hits your face like a finely sharpened cleaver when it's supposed to make you die by a thousand papercuts (paraphrased from a post during the PTR by Drothvader).

Continued...
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Continued from previous post...

04/15/2015 11:43 AMPosted by Syntax
Actually the thing with UE is fairly similar to IK and Morticks. UE wouldn't be that problematic, since Multi Shot is limited in terms of ressources, since it is quite expensive. And the primary-skills don't deal that much damage. However with the ability to use Chakram and Elemental Arrow the set goes way beyond in terms of damage compared to any other set. And even though using Elemental Arrow requires a rather rare item, Chakram does not it even is a quiver making it cheaper to gamble (most people likely get one before they get the full UE, and due to being a quiver getting an ancient one isn't that important).


Chakram is not a build you want to use with UE. You sacrifice a ton of damage from DML or Krider + Meticulous Bolts because Seething Spines only turns Chakram into a generator without confering any secondary capability like KS + MB or DML + Multishot does.

04/15/2015 12:33 PMPosted by Exia
So I agreed it need to be fix ASAP EA from kridershot and chakram from quiver shouldn't count as generator.


The devs stated that it was intended for EA to work with UE. This probably won't be changing anytime soon.

04/15/2015 12:48 PMPosted by Deccode
I don't understand why people are saying bracers are giving you everything from berserker permanently, and then claim it's only 1 item, even an MVP lol.
The bracers were giving you every rune for 20 seconds, if you wanted it permanent you had to take 4 pieces of immortal kings set as well. So it's basically 5 item combination and not 1 item that gives you all the effects permanently.


While Mortick's interacted with the IK 4pc bonus, it was still a singular external item that enabled perma WotB again. No other item in the game enables that anymore, just that one item. And with IK6 being horribad currently (and on the PTR as well), the devs knew that leaving Mortick's in (again, one item) would also mean having to deal with balance issues caused by IK4/WW in combination with Mortick's. But as Drothvader mentioned, the end result was caused by terrible planning and lack of foresight and not being forthcoming about intentions. Sadly that end result was essentially the destruction of several playstyles and set interactions (again, by one item).

As silly as this sounds.

I think the main problem with UE is that it can run Focus and Restraint with minimal drawback because UE's build is so passive (relatively low interactivity with other items) that RoRG is not required whatsover. Also, the way most UE builds go there's always a permanent uptime on bastions of will.

Personally I think its focus and restraint that's overpowered cuz UE doesn't seem to do as much damage without it.

>.> I think same can be said for alot of classes.


This is very possible. Unfortunately, without BoW, we're back to RoRG/Unity or RoRG/SoJ as the only combo again. The devs had to make BoW good like this to justify taking both ring slots.
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The only problem was that it challenged the almighty demon hunter for the #1 spot, and thus had to be nerfed.
04/15/2015 04:25 PMPosted by Shivera
04/14/2015 07:07 PMPosted by TheTias
Mortick's however, gave WotB every rune, something typically only given by set bonuses.
Really? 'cuz uhh... you're wrong. There's a few items that have been in the game a while that add all runes that aren't set. Only a few sets yield all runes, and 3 are incredibly questionable, 1 is mildly useful, and 1 is very useful.

lol@Vyr's, Shadow's, and Jade Harvester (nobody really cares Soul Harvest gets all of it's crappy runes).

That leaves... Raekor's, which is highly useful, and Marauder's, which is eh.

List of items that give EVERY rune:
Crown of the Primus
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/item/crown-of-the-primus
Angel Hair Braid
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/item/angel-hair-braid
The Undisputed Champion
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-undisputed-champion

So "usually" reserved for sets? I'm glad you aren't a dev.

Those items also only grant the runes of skills that aren't in the last tier.
04/15/2015 06:18 PMPosted by TheTias
I'll gladly see perma-CC gone from the game in all forms if the damage is toned down to where all classes can survive by playing skillfully instead of instagibbed by unavoidable damage that hits your face like a finely sharpened cleaver when it's supposed to make you die by a thousand papercuts (paraphrased from a post during the PTR by Drothvader).


It has to be removed regardless, or there will never be any progress towards balanced group play.
Ok so I read like the first 4 pages and then skipped to the end and I'm still not sure why people are saying that UE is OP. Sure it does a lot of damage, but I still feel that your Paragon Lv's and the Level of Gems you use is of far more significance. I have a full UE set all Ancient with fairly decent stats, however I did find it interesting to hear that Chakaram is not the best setup. I'm currently running a Non-Ancient Calamity with and Ancient Spines that are giving me some very good Dmg results. However I'm still looking for an Ancient Kridershot, and also a new DML. I do think a massive change to the Hellfire Amulets are in order. The cost for reward is quiet insane, but I've noticed that many people will sacrifice the extra passive to use a different Amulet all together.

If the majority feel the UE is OP I would ask for what though? Currently the leaderboards show Lv 55-56 is the highest for most classes in GRs. So what's the end point really? At some point there is going to be a limit to how far we can get with gear we currently have, so the gear is really never going to be OP at any point. I would assume that Blizzard has a specific Lv of GR that they feel we need to be at with the current gear Lv's. I feel that D3:UE is nearing the end of its cycle of what they change/add to make the game enjoyable. At best with a full Ancient set of near perfect gear I think a GR of 65-70 is achievable, so back to relying heavily on Paragon pts
Continued from previous post...

04/15/2015 11:43 AMPosted by Syntax
Actually the thing with UE is fairly similar to IK and Morticks. UE wouldn't be that problematic, since Multi Shot is limited in terms of ressources, since it is quite expensive. And the primary-skills don't deal that much damage. However with the ability to use Chakram and Elemental Arrow the set goes way beyond in terms of damage compared to any other set. And even though using Elemental Arrow requires a rather rare item, Chakram does not it even is a quiver making it cheaper to gamble (most people likely get one before they get the full UE, and due to being a quiver getting an ancient one isn't that important).


Chakram is not a build you want to use with UE. You sacrifice a ton of damage from DML or Krider + Meticulous Bolts because Seething Spines only turns Chakram into a generator without confering any secondary capability like KS + MB or DML + Multishot does.

04/15/2015 12:33 PMPosted by Exia
So I agreed it need to be fix ASAP EA from kridershot and chakram from quiver shouldn't count as generator.


The devs stated that it was intended for EA to work with UE. This probably won't be changing anytime soon.

04/15/2015 12:48 PMPosted by Deccode
I don't understand why people are saying bracers are giving you everything from berserker permanently, and then claim it's only 1 item, even an MVP lol.
The bracers were giving you every rune for 20 seconds, if you wanted it permanent you had to take 4 pieces of immortal kings set as well. So it's basically 5 item combination and not 1 item that gives you all the effects permanently.


While Mortick's interacted with the IK 4pc bonus, it was still a singular external item that enabled perma WotB again. No other item in the game enables that anymore, just that one item. And with IK6 being horribad currently (and on the PTR as well), the devs knew that leaving Mortick's in (again, one item) would also mean having to deal with balance issues caused by IK4/WW in combination with Mortick's. But as Drothvader mentioned, the end result was caused by terrible planning and lack of foresight and not being forthcoming about intentions. Sadly that end result was essentially the destruction of several playstyles and set interactions (again, by one item).

As silly as this sounds.

I think the main problem with UE is that it can run Focus and Restraint with minimal drawback because UE's build is so passive (relatively low interactivity with other items) that RoRG is not required whatsover. Also, the way most UE builds go there's always a permanent uptime on bastions of will.

Personally I think its focus and restraint that's overpowered cuz UE doesn't seem to do as much damage without it.

>.> I think same can be said for alot of classes.


This is very possible. Unfortunately, without BoW, we're back to RoRG/Unity or RoRG/SoJ as the only combo again. The devs had to make BoW good like this to justify taking both ring slots.
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Thats the thing. RoRG functions as a replacement for any slot of set armor which opens up alot of possibilities.

That coupled with new rings its actually far worse to have an OP ring set take up ring slots as opposed to having 10 other options which would have been viable if it weren't for bastions being that strong.,
04/15/2015 06:20 PMPosted by TheTias
While Mortick's interacted with the IK 4pc bonus, it was still a singular external item that enabled perma WotB again.

No it didn't lol. What are you talking about...
04/15/2015 06:20 PMPosted by TheTias
Sadly that end result was essentially the destruction of several playstyles and set interactions (again, by one item).

Because it was balanced around that one item. IK went through numerous changes while still factoring the bracers into it. At the end, bracers removed IK changes stayed the same.
@ TE
I dunno how you can compare 6 piece Bonus with a SINGLE ITEM.

ATM UE is fine as it is, if you would tune down the DMG, you could simply run Marauders instead, with nearly the same results. I guess it's around 10-15% difference.

For the trolls thinking that every tick of Lightning Bolt deals 300% damage I can assure them that they are wrong.
It's about 150% / Tick => if you hit 11times(pretty rare btw) it's 1650%(lower than CA DMG btw).

Your OP item called DML cumulated DMGbonus is around 40-55%(depending on hp of the enemy more hp = more dmg). It's not even used in parties. ;)

It's correct that UE can deal an insane amount of DMG, but what it can't do is nearly facetank a riftguard on 55+. If you checked some vids you would have noticed that barbs were able to do so while dealing, also an insane amount of DMG when it was a summoner RG, thx to blood explosions (amplified btw).

What UE also isn't capable of is amplifying dmg of gems/ damage of procs etc.
Mortick' s was able to do so. Main problem behind this !@#$ is the multiplicative behavior
e.g. 1*1,5*1,5*1,5*2= 6,75 overalldmg amplifier. Now we take WoL-Gem on 50 for example:
1100% * 6,75 = 7425% Weapondmg/ Sec, or Mirinae 4000*6,75 = 27000% etc.
Blood Explosion proccs [just given by morticks, and even proccing proccs ;)] 300% * 6,75= 2025%, Arreats Wail explosion 3400*6,75 = 22950%.

Overall you got 50% DMGcut + Chance of 300% AoE DMG on Crit + 3400% Weapondmg explosion while entering berserker + 5364 Life per Fury spend + 50% increased Dmg (modified with other multiplicators you got 225% more dmg) from a SINGLE item.

If you want to compare an item you have to compare it with another item, like DML the DH "OP" item.
Cumulated dmg bonus 40-55% vs all runes of Berserker and you should notice which one is "OP".

I'm aware of the fact, that the new barbs sets were balanced around mortick's and that the removal of the bracers was a harsh cut, especially regarding build diversity and i would agree to increase IK6 Bonus to 200% for this season to compensate the loss of the bracers.
(if you ask why 200%, it's the same amount of dmg you get for using the + 50% Dmg rune, so you are still able to take the 50% dmg cut in addition).

For everyone who loves the maths behind the UE-Set (I wont include other DMGamplifiers like passives, buffs etc.):

81(max discipline)*15= 1215% + 100% regular dmg = 1315*1,2 (2 piece) = 1578%

Multishotdmg = 360%
Arsenalrune = 3 rockets at 300% (600% with Ballistics)
360%*15,78= 5680,8% DMG AOE + 600%*15,78= 9468% on 3 targets
= 15148,8% Singletarget (DH weapon dmg is 25% lower in comparison, with quiver still around 15%, pls don't count ASP it's fake dps if you don't use a channeling pylon)

For the F+R lovers:

15148,8%*1,5*1,5=34084,8% on Singletarget

With Kridershot assuming 7 & 11hits with Lightning Bolt, not rly viable SP:
1050%*15,78*1,5*1,5= 36451,8 (realistic)
1650%*15,78*1,5*1,5 = 58471,875%, (optimum)

Remember that thanks to the sets disicpline interaction and the regular socket, a wearable ancient Kridershot is the rarest item available.

If you compare the pure DMGvalues in a party DH dmg is definitely higher than barbs, but a DH can't stand a hit, a barb can.
You can't bring in the argument that melee classe need higher sustain but in a party sustain is irrelevant thx to CC.
Equivalent DMG would ruin SP-board balance and please don't gimme the argument MP-boards are more important than SP-boards the relevance is the same relying on fun and game experience.
It's pretty hard to fix MP-boards properly but with the removal of perma CC next season DH will have a harder life, while other classes may shine.

Just my 2 cents and sry for the long post, pls don't ask for hasty nerfs just because the DMG of a class performs pretty well, while another doesn't.
I guess everyone who is honest with himself knew that the removal of Mortick's in their current state was necessary, thx to their insane performance. But they're should have been a slight buff concerning IK and Wastes aswell.
04/16/2015 12:44 AMPosted by Shadoweye
I dunno how you can compare 6 piece Bonus with a SINGLE ITEM.

Because it's not a single item. This was brought up before, your argument is invalid.
@ Deccode

You should reread the headline again. ;)

BTW UE is also not even close to OP without a whole gear build around the set.
@TheTias

"The devs stated that it was intended for EA to work with UE. This probably won't be changing anytime soon."

Yeah I know but devs intended ruin other DPS classes since slowball UE can deal twice more damage. I am ok with standard Fire UE even damage a bit lower but not for slowball UE.

Here from what I tested in d3planner by throw the best gear in many build
Slowball UE 10B damage !!! WTF (not even include Ambush passive yet)
Standard fire UE 3.8B damage
Fire M6 4.3 damage
ROV Nat DH and Pets dart WD 4.2B damage (not include blizz con ring buff)

I suggest go d3planner.com and do ur own test with best gear in any DPS build u will see.
04/16/2015 01:13 AMPosted by Shadoweye
@ Deccode

You should reread the headline again. ;)

BTW UE is also not even close to OP without a whole gear build around the set.

I don't have to. I have read everything you wrote and funny thing is, I agree with you. In fact I couldn't care less how OP demon hunters are or any other class in Diablo 3, honestly. I play DH myself, it's just that I like barb more. Demon hunters could clear greater rift level 100 I couldn't care less. It's just the false statement and biased arguments that I am against, like motricks giving you perma wotb, perma wotb achieveable with 1 item etcetc.
@ Deccode

04/16/2015 02:59 AMPosted by Deccode
I don't have to. I have read everything you wrote and funny thing is, I agree with you. In fact I couldn't care less how OP demon hunters are or any other class in Diablo 3, honestly. I play DH myself, it's just that I like barb more. Demon hunters could clear greater rift level 100 I couldn't care less. It's just the false statement and biased arguments that I am against, like motricks giving you perma wotb, perma wotb achieveable with 1 item etcetc.


I guess everyone know that it is necessary to run 4p IK to achieve permazerker but with the Bracers + IK6 it would give more DMG to Charge than whole Raekorset for example. Especially combined with Corpsethrow.
With Wastesset you can decide if you prefer 6 IK+ 4 Wastes or 4 IK + 6 Wastes, with elementalring for Rend.
I guess the Bracers are to essential for every build, that's why they removed them and bring them back later with 50% Dmgcutrune or smth.
04/16/2015 03:36 AMPosted by Shadoweye
I guess everyone know that it is necessary to run 4p IK to achieve permazerker but with the Bracers + IK6 it would give more DMG to Charge than whole Raekorset for example. Especially combined with Corpsethrow.
With Wastesset you can decide if you prefer 6 IK+ 4 Wastes or 4 IK + 6 Wastes, with elementalring for Rend.
I guess the Bracers are to essential for every build, that's why they removed them and bring them back later with 50% Dmgcutrune or smth.

First of all, everyone is using insanity with wotb anyway, with or without the bracers. I doubt slaugther will give more DPS to reakor than strongarm bracers, and if that is the case I don't see why that is bad? And if they bring back bracers with 50% dmg reduction rune they will be essential again, and I don't see the problem with that as well. And 6xIK 4xWotW doesn't come close to DPS vs 6x WotW 4x IK, that's because the 6 piece set bonus from IK was, as you already said earlier, balanced around the bracers.
04/16/2015 02:08 AMPosted by Exia
@TheTias

"The devs stated that it was intended for EA to work with UE. This probably won't be changing anytime soon."

Yeah I know but devs intended ruin other DPS classes since slowball UE can deal twice more damage. I am ok with standard Fire UE even damage a bit lower but not for slowball UE.

Here from what I tested in d3planner by throw the best gear in many build
Slowball UE 10B damage !!! WTF (not even include Ambush passive yet)
Standard fire UE 3.8B damage
Fire M6 4.3 damage
ROV Nat DH and Pets dart WD 4.2B damage (not include blizz con ring buff)

I suggest go d3planner.com and do ur own test with best gear in any DPS build u will see.


Again, that's an issue with Ball Lightning, not Kridershot or UE.
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04/16/2015 04:35 AMPosted by TheTias
Again, that's an issue with Ball Lightning, not Kridershot or UE.

No, for people it's an issue with ball lightning together with UE and kridershot.
04/15/2015 06:20 PMPosted by TheTias


While Mortick's interacted with the IK 4pc bonus, it was still a singular external item that enabled perma WotB again. No other item in the game enables that anymore, just that one item. And with IK6 being horribad currently (and on the PTR as well), the devs knew that leaving Mortick's in (again, one item) would also mean having to deal with balance issues caused by IK4/WW in combination with Mortick's. But as Drothvader mentioned, the end result was caused by terrible planning and lack of foresight and not being forthcoming about intentions. Sadly that end result was essentially the destruction of several playstyles and set interactions (again, by one item).

[/quote]

The bracer isn't what allows perma WOTB but it was overpowered no doubt, really we could have done with a bracer adding the striding giant one rune (50% damage reduction)

I also disagree with you on that the set working as intended means it's fine and balanced, this was said in one of your first posts in this thread.

Comparing DH current performance to other classes such as wizards is no strawman argument either, we're striving for balance and DH !@#$s on everything? How is it a strawman to argue how much more powerful it is than other classes?

If you want to compare an item you have to compare it with another item, like DML the DH "OP" item.
Cumulated dmg bonus 40-55% vs all runes of Berserker and you should notice which one is "OP"


Who cares how powerful a single item is? What matters is the overall build and how it interacts with the current sets/builds... The OP DH item isn't so great without the 6 set but with it, it's insane..

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