XP discrepancy needs to be addressed

General Discussion
Prev 1 16 17 18 25 Next
05/11/2015 02:21 PMPosted by Shadout
05/11/2015 02:03 PMPosted by Kotobeast
Exactly

Which is why 1 of the solutions I agree with is giving every class the ability to use exp gear and remain effective... more options

Not just cru wd or monk

Well, everybody can't be zDPS at the same time in a group.

Unless you mean giving all classes the ability to be effective DPS and use XP gear at the same time?

But there can't be a meaningful choice in that either.
Either you give up something (DPS, Tank'iness, CC-ability) in exchange for the XP, or the choice is meaningless.
You seem to be proposing that everybody should be able to make a XP build with no efficiency cost? That is not more options imo.


It is more options

Right now only zdps wd cru or monk have that ability

Soon only cru and monk

Im saying give it to every class

Either a dps or zdps spec for every class that can use exp gear and still be effective

More options... but there would still be group contention

If you like the idea of some classes being able to always gain more exp than others, that is bad design

Either that or make it so bonus exp is shared in a group, very simple
Who would ever choose the non-XP option if the choices boils down to:
1) Full efficiency and XP bonus
2) Full efficiency and no XP bonus

I can't see much of a choice there.

05/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Kotobeast
If you like the idea of some classes being able to always gain more exp than others, that is bad design

Definitely.

Though some builds being able to get more XP than other builds are also bad design.
Just really tough to balance. But the goal should always be to try.
Like I said group comp under 40, 1 person can leech no matter what the class is. The meta doesn't matter when you hold the keys - the other 3 need to be DPS. Around 42+, you can do it with sader/monk/wd. Somewhere around 45-50, you need to swap to optimal gear.

The long of short of it is, the players need to monitor and enforce their environment. When people swap gear at the last moment, you need to kick them as it isn't tolerated. People will understand that it's unacceptable and it will stop happening over time.

You teach people how to treat you.

ZDS pays. Play that way and people will catch on and also do the same. There is no other practical solution until the next patch and the whole dynamic of getting into grifts will change.
05/11/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Shadout
Who would ever choose the non-XP option if the choices boils down to:
1) Full efficiency and XP bonus
2) Full efficiency and no XP bonus

I can't see much of a choice there.


Knowing that putting on exp gear gimps the group you are in for your own personal benefit

Is that a choice people should be encouraged to make

I think not

But for the whole groups benefit?

I think yes

Right now, putting on exp gear = whole group suffers, for your personal benefit

Ideally = you suffer, but whole group benefits
05/11/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Shadout
Who would ever choose the non-XP option if the choices boils down to:
1) Full efficiency and XP bonus
2) Full efficiency and no XP bonus

1) Only occurs if there are people volunteering to carry you.
2) Only occurs if you are willing to carry those in 1).

See the issue?

Then the system becomes:

1) You hold the keys. The group needs your keys. You leech. They carry you.
2) You don't have keys. You want to run speed GRs? You want to leech these GRs? Farm your own keys and open for others to carry you. You want to run, but you don't have keys? Look for someone who has keys and is looking to be carried.

But yes, it's still a problem because what's going to happen when everyone has their own keys and is looking for a carry?

What's going to happen when a 100% EXP community buff rolls around and everyone wants to maximize using a zDPS character? Only a handful private games will have people comfortable enough to rotate amongst each other. What about all the PUGs? It'll be incredibly messy.
________________________________________________
Diablo III MVP | Forever Flavor of the Month
YouTube Channel: http://youtube.com/Jae7ch
Twitter: @Jaetch | Clan Page: http://vizjereiclan.com
05/11/2015 03:07 PMPosted by Jaetch
05/11/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Shadout
Who would ever choose the non-XP option if the choices boils down to:
1) Full efficiency and XP bonus
2) Full efficiency and no XP bonus

1) Only occurs if there are people volunteering to carry you.
2) Only occurs if you are willing to carry those in 1).

See the issue?

Then the system becomes:

1) You hold the keys. The group needs your keys. You leech. They carry you.
2) You don't have keys. You want to run speed GRs? You want to leech these GRs? Farm your own keys and open for others to carry you. You want to run, but you don't have keys? Look for someone who has keys and is looking to be carried.
The reality is most people don't have dedicated rift groups so they have to find people in communities, and almost always someone in the group switches to their zdps exp leech character, regardless of who is spending their keys. There's simply too many of them to kick every one that joins your party, and it's a significant factor of why I haven't even bothered to play in over a week.

There of course are solutions to these problems as some have mentioned, but simply avoiding these people has become too much of an inconvenience for me, and I refuse to leech myself. We shouldn't have to work around this completely broken exp system.
05/11/2015 03:04 PMPosted by Kotobeast
Right now, putting on exp gear = whole group suffers, for your personal benefit

Well, isn't the point about zDPS that the whole group does not suffer by them using XP gear, since they can do their job just fine with XP gear on?

If the whole group did suffer from zDPS using XP then it is not different from a DPSer using XP gear.

05/11/2015 03:07 PMPosted by Jaetch
1) Only occurs if there are people volunteering to carry you.
2) Only occurs if you are willing to carry those in 1).

See the issue?

That only occurs today.
What you quoted was part of an argument with Kotobeast who asked* for all classes to have DPS/zDPS specs which could be effective and get bonus XP at the same time.

In which case you would have no reason to ever NOT use XP gear.

*Unless I'm misreading him.
05/11/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Shadout
Well, isn't the point about zDPS that the whole group does not suffer by them using XP gear, since they can do their job just fine with XP gear on?


The point of zDPS is that they sacrifice their damage (they suffer) but the whole group benefits from their CCing/tanking (whole group benefits)

This is good design

Same thing should be for exp gear

1 person suffers (less damage, ability, etc)

But whole group benefits from bonus exp
05/11/2015 03:54 PMPosted by Kotobeast
05/11/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Shadout
Well, isn't the point about zDPS that the whole group does not suffer by them using XP gear, since they can do their job just fine with XP gear on?


The point of zDPS is that they sacrifice their damage (they suffer) but the whole group benefits from their CCing/tanking (whole group benefits)

This is good design

Same thing should be for exp gear

1 person suffers (less damage, ability, etc)

But whole group benefits from bonus exp


But they dont trade XP for DPS, they trade their CC for DPS. That is the zDPS design.
XP is just something they might as well throw on top of it since their DPS is irrelevant anyway.

So nobody suffers from them going XP gear.

Which kinda is the problem here. They do not have to make a trade-off to use XP gear, unlike the DPS'ers, who hurt themselves and the group if they go XP gear.
05/11/2015 01:42 PMPosted by RandyMarsh
This doesn't benefit anyone. Why cant people just accept that the current system is broken? We shouldn't have to find inconvenient ways to work around it.
Sure it does. It 100% benefits you.
Would you rather have a DH that switches 3 pieces of gear and under-performs in DPS to gain more XP? No. I'd rather kick them and replace with a DH that does their job that's required for the team - namely pew pew. Furthermore, it's a bit dishonest, especially if you set ground rules with your DPS.

Speed clears? Who cares. Progression clears? It matters. Kick 'em and force them to lose the key.

Let's look at the alternative - you have a ZDPs character. They are decked with XP gear, and nets 3x the XP.
Then that gets divided per the OP's solution - now everyone gets 75% more xp. As a ZDPs, why would I bother with that? I simply wouldn't wear it if I only get a smidge of XP boost. I'll just keep the 40% group buff, and not bother to gear in that fashion.

I swear, people didn't think the above through very well.

05/11/2015 01:59 PMPosted by Shadout
It seems like it is simply free-riding. Since the DPS'ers choice always (in higher GRifts that is) are optimized by going full DPS, and the zDPS can join in without "paying" (focusing on efficiency gear) as much as the rest of the group, the zDPS is free-riding on the choices others have made.
It's generally agreed upon that zDPS bring the keys. That saves the DPS from having to farm them up.
05/11/2015 04:01 PMPosted by Shivera
It's generally agreed upon that zDPS bring the keys. That saves the DPS from having to farm them up.

That is all fair and good, but tbh a bit irrelevant for the topic imo.
For one it is an agreement made outside of the actual game balance, to counter the imbalance. If their is a real issue here, it is Blizzard who should fix it, not the players by coming up with some meta-game rules.
Second, that whole concept might be gone in the next patch.

I do agree that it is peoples own job to kick leechers and free-riders though. That is what the kick mechanism exists for.

But if Blizzard can balance the game better, so free-riding isnt the only good option for some builds, then it would certainly only make the game better.

Unlike the solutions of shared XP which would imo, make the game worse in multiple ways.

Or the "remove all XP gear-solution, which might remove the problem. But removing a problem isnt really the same as fixing it. It is the lazy and bad solution in most cases (although not all cases).
05/11/2015 02:52 PMPosted by Phatty
The long of short of it is, the players need to monitor and enforce their environment. When people swap gear at the last moment, you need to kick them as it isn't tolerated. People will understand that it's unacceptable and it will stop happening over time.

You teach people how to treat you.

ZDS pays. Play that way and people will catch on and also do the same. There is no other practical solution until the next patch and the whole dynamic of getting into grifts will change.
THIS. +1 This. Exactly what I'm saying.
If you "let" people ride/leech/switch gear/go keyless, they will continue to do so.
The EASY way to fix this so called " issue " is for Blizzard to make it so players can BUY paragon levels!

HO HO HO!!!

I bet that'll get all your tongues wagging.... Sure would stop posts like this one.

Honestly, if someone isn't playing " YOUR game" how YOU want, wearing the gear YOU want etc, THEN BOOT THEM OUT!
04/28/2015 09:52 PMPosted by BeerLeague
No one wants to play DPS. Why would they when they can gain double more more XP as a support class?

Thanks for bringing this up, BeerLeague, and thanks to everyone who's added to the constructive discussion in this thread. This issue is actually connected with the ability to perma-stun enemies, which we'll be looking to remove in an upcoming patch.

In fact, the ability to perma-stun enemies is one of the reasons support builds in Greater Rifts are able to gear heavily toward experience gain while ignoring defensive stats. Regardless of the specific changes we make to stun skills, our goal will be for defensive affixes on gear to become more valuable. This should bring the leveling speed of players using support builds more in line with those using DPS builds.

(Also, in case you missed it, we previously mentioned our goal of addressing perma-stun builds in our last Tavern Talk livestream. At the time, Wyatt mentioned that we're "not cool" with these builds, and would be making changes to them.)
05/11/2015 04:01 PMPosted by Shadout
05/11/2015 03:54 PMPosted by Kotobeast
...

The point of zDPS is that they sacrifice their damage (they suffer) but the whole group benefits from their CCing/tanking (whole group benefits)

This is good design

Same thing should be for exp gear

1 person suffers (less damage, ability, etc)

But whole group benefits from bonus exp


But they dont trade XP for DPS, they trade their CC for DPS. That is the zDPS design.
XP is just something they might as well throw on top of it since their DPS is irrelevant anyway.

So nobody suffers from them going XP gear.

Which kinda is the problem here. They do not have to make a trade-off to use XP gear, unlike the DPS'ers, who hurt themselves and the group if they go XP gear.


Exactly, thats why the design is bad currently

Zdps puts xp gear with no trade off in speed grifts

Dps have tradeoff they lose dps

So again the possible solutions are


1)Nerf zdps so they need to use regular gear to be effective
2)Normalize or average out bonus exp in groups
3)Make it so all classes have xp gear build that doesn't gimp their capability
05/11/2015 04:37 PMPosted by Tyvalir
04/28/2015 09:52 PMPosted by BeerLeague
No one wants to play DPS. Why would they when they can gain double more more XP as a support class?

Thanks for bringing this up, BeerLeague, and thanks to everyone who's added to the constructive discussion in this thread. This issue is actually connected with the ability to perma-stun enemies, which we'll be looking to remove in an upcoming patch.

In fact, the ability to perma-stun enemies is one of the reasons support builds in Greater Rifts are able to gear heavily toward experience gain while ignoring defensive stats. Regardless of the specific changes we make to stun skills, our goal will be for defensive affixes on gear to become more valuable. This should bring the leveling speed of players using support builds more in line with those using DPS builds.

(Also, in case you missed it, we [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWFi90Hv7RQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1h20m18s"]previously mentioned[/url] our goal of addressing perma-stun builds in our last Tavern Talk livestream. At the time, Wyatt mentioned that we're "not cool" with these builds, and would be making changes to them.)

Thank you for the post

So it looks like you will be using solution

#1 - Nerf zdps/tank builds so that they must use regular gear to be effective

Fine by me
05/11/2015 04:01 PMPosted by Shivera
05/11/2015 01:42 PMPosted by RandyMarsh
This doesn't benefit anyone. Why cant people just accept that the current system is broken? We shouldn't have to find inconvenient ways to work around it.
Sure it does. It 100% benefits you.
Would you rather have a DH that switches 3 pieces of gear and under-performs in DPS to gain more XP? No. I'd rather kick them and replace with a DH that does their job that's required for the team - namely pew pew. Furthermore, it's a bit dishonest, especially if you set ground rules with your DPS.

[/quote]Kicking someone mid rift, finishing it with 3 people, then finding another zdps who isn't going to do the same thing is just a complete waste of time. Why the hell should we have to suffer this inconvenience because the game is broken. People keep giving us inconvenient solutions to a broken system but won't acknowledge that exp is broken in this game. This is getting absurd.
no zdps class will have a chance to live beyond Grift 60 because everything hits to hard, so....The Dev team is pretty much gonna push back D3 progression ten lvls and really piss off everyone. Unless of course they actually lower monster hp and dmg by an ton. As far as the xp sh#t, If you want more xp then make the class, otherwise !@#$!!!!!
Not going to dispute this with anyone, but I can't stand filtering through several people when searching for parties. It gets to the point where it's inefficient to form a party.

There's always someone in each party that wants to leech exp. I've had instances where they come in wearing their normal set and switch to exp set right before rift starts. God forbid you get 2 exp leeches in a party, then it's just GG

Hope Bliz looks into this.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum