Solo players, avoid even trying out seasons!

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04/21/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Agmo
.You can't on one hand chose to play solo and then turn around and whine you are not capable of being competitive with people who have chosen to play with others.


You can't group play then turn around using all that loot/paragon level to to show solo competitive play. See what I did there?

Some people like solo, some like group.

04/21/2015 10:11 PMPosted by Melilotus
No, it's a simple solution FOR YOU since you are not the one that would have to provide tech support for every player trying to figure out why they no longer qualify for the solo leaderboard, because they once met a friend in town to check out a neat weapon model.


Dude, If you are softcore...can you interact with hardcore? Nope.
Now do you have anything worth contributing to this thread other than trolling?

04/21/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Agmo
If you are choosing not to play in a social setting then by it's very nature you are anti-social


Great! Add me as a friend and lets go play some Grifts! Just don't ask or complain about why am I standing at the entrance and not helping when I get a phone call about some server issues and I will be afk for the next 30+ minutes. Also please point out where I am REQUIRED to group up to play Diablo.

Diablo was built on SOLO play.
I think these issues are easy to fix .

1. Look into bonus XP gear "leeching" in groups 3 players 1 leech. 50 billion xp an hour .

2. Balance the xp for doing solo grifts vs grouping

Other issues are things like levelling gems , Maybe look at the way gems are ranked up. Gems could have mini XP bars for example and you have to level them up within greater rifts .
04/21/2015 12:39 PMPosted by Tyvalir

I'll continue to watch this thread and pass along the constructive feedback I see. Again, sharing both the "what" and "why" creates the best feedback!


Let's start with contex :). I enjoy playing solo and group.

What's frustrating: I'm rewarded much more in group / much less in solo. I estimate group benefits in public games give me around 2-3 times more loot/xp than solo play.

Why it's frustrating: because when I switch from group to solo play I'm not rewarded as much as in the other mode. It makes me feel forced to play certain mode - multiplayer just to progress, and I like variety.


Group play should be better in terms of rewards, but only forgood reasons.


Good reasons for group being better:

- Actively using group strategy to own. Using build optimized for group, party buffs, cc, mob positioning, party cooldowns etc
- Loot sharing

Why they are good?

Doing these things rewards you for being team player. It's awesome to get more goods because you adapted to mode you are playing and contribute to the team.

Bad reasons for group being better:

- HP scaling. Other benefits aside, 4 players deal 4x damage, right? So the monster should have 4x HP to die in the same time as in solo. Currently it has 2.5x more HP. By the power of Math, I declare the fact: the monster will die faster, as if every 4-team member had 60% more damage. That's right, hp scaling decreases time to kill monster in the same way as giving 60% more damage to every player

- Strength in numbers buff. Killing the same monster give more xp, because I'm playing favoured mode.

Why they are bad?

These are static boost to certain game mode. They are not justified in any way. They boost game mode which would be more effective even without them. They do not promote any certain group behaviour. They just say: join group mode for more power and gainz!
04/21/2015 11:55 PMPosted by Turbodevil
Tyvalir

Here's what I think we'd all like Tyvalir to answer: so why are the devs, or perhaps those managers above the devs who are directing the devs...so adamant about undermining...and then, as it seems, maybe even set upon destroying solo play in D3?

As Ganelon has said:

04/21/2015 11:07 PMPosted by Ganelon
Diablo was built on SOLO play.


...but now the company's execs have seemingly decided to progressively bury every solo players six feet under!
04/21/2015 11:55 PMPosted by Turbodevil
What's frustrating: I'm rewarded much more in group / much less in solo. I estimate group benefits in public games give me around 2-3 times more loot/xp than solo play.


I play solo so I don't know but I have to say if this is true it's quite disturbing. That is way too much disparity.
Solo play and co-op play both have their own benefits and cons.

In solo play I have the benefit of having a follower and as such I can use Unity effectively. As such my ability to complete higher content is easier for me personally with the survivability obtained from this item. For example I could easily to a 40-41 grift solo, but I invited a friend along to help gear them up a little and I could not even complete the rift in time because I was dying to much to elemental damage. When solo i can give my follower the ability to never die, then give them unity and I will forever receive less dmg, but as soon as I give that up higher content is seemingly impossible without dropping a lot of damage for the benefit of having a helping hand.

Co-op play is fun or not fun depending on how well geared or not geared the players you are playing with are. If you are superior in gear then you are carrying the group, and that is not fun. Likewise if runs are taking to long it is even less fun because you can likely go much faster solo. The only time I find co-op fun is when all players in the group feel equally useful, or one of the players doesn't mind carrying / getting carried. I could care less about the increased exp or drop rate when in a group if I can simply get more elite / champ / rift guardian kills per hour solo than when grouping.

Co-op on the other hand does allow players to loot share. Since trading was removed co-op feels forced. Since it is in the best interest of strangers to co-op for the simple reason of being able to share items with one another in order to speed up progression, players end up co-oping even if they do want to solo. As much as you can progress on your own solo, it is nothing compared to a group of players with the same main stat grouping together as you can all share items you do not need.

I understand trading was removed because of the economy and real money AH that was created, but I really wish just basic trading was added. No trading items for money, or currency items (forgotten souls / gems) just straight up item for item, or item for nothing. (And as such this will never happen either because it allows Real World trading to grow. Although technically people could pay to have some one run them through high grifts several times currently)

In the end co-op play feels forced if one wants to progress quickly, or solo play is penalized by the lack of progression speed possible by simply playing alone. The lack of any form of trading with players outside of your game when the item drops makes co-op forced as well due to being able to share loot with your co-op team.

Can you get geared enough to wreck T6 playing solo in a short amount of time, yes it is quite easy these days to do so with a little bit of luck. Can you get geared enough to do 50+ grifts in a short amount of time solo, not likely. In less than 70 hrs of gameplay on my season barbarian I got grift 41 completed and almost paragon 300. In about the same time give or take 24 hrs people who have loot shared since start have been able to complete higher than grift 50 already with all but 1 slot of gear ancient. The difference in progression speed here is enormous and makes it seem unfair for those who also work a full time job but want to be able to even try to compete in rankings.

TLDR : I love solo play because of follower (unity combo), and ability to progress through levels without feeling rushed, carried, or doing the carrying. I hate co-op because it feels like its a forced requirement to compete in rankings.
04/21/2015 12:39 PMPosted by Tyvalir
These are some very well-written and constructive thoughts, and I'm thankful you all shared them here. As a reminder, it's particularly helpful for us to hear not only what aspects of multiplayer versus solo play cause you to feel frustrated, but why they frustrate you too. Similarly, if there are things you happen to enjoy about multiplayer, that’s also good to know since it provides a nice contrast and helps us get a more accurate picture of what your current in-game experience is like.

I'll continue to watch this thread and pass along the constructive feedback I see. Again, sharing both the "what" and "why" creates the best feedback!


Playing co-op means that you have to keep up with other players which usually results in a very fast pace game where you chase the other players or you are the one being chased. I prefer solo since I can take my time opening chest, turning over bodies, enjoy the game and not worry if the other players have already killed the RG and closed the rift. In Grifts I like to test different builds and not play the cookie ones, I can only do this in solo games, in multiplayer I have to be like everyone else or I get kicked out. Plus it is really hard to find likeminded players. I have been playing this game since the release and the only real progress I ever made was in the 1-2 months period (before patch 2.1) when I was playing multiplayer games. Since I really dislike the co-op mode, apart from the "couch" mode on XBox with my real friends, I am doomed to walk through Sanctuary without end game gear and making less progress in 3 years solo than someone playing 1 season in multiplayer games. So it's pretty much "play multiplayer or get out".

In my opinion, multiplayer buff to experience and item find should not exist. Unproportioned enemy health/damage scaling is enough as an incentive for those who want to achieve more by playing multiplayer (such as higher level grifts).
04/21/2015 12:39 PMPosted by Shackler
What about a follower special that adds the strength in numbers buff?

Excellent idea! Similar benefit might also be integrated into redesigned "follower's friendly" crafted set, e.g. Asheara.

Personally, I prefer solo play or friendly play in small group (e.g. with one other person). Few times I were carried, mostly I'm the one doing the carrying, just slightly (playing with a friend) or the actual kind, helping people level up their secondary characters or run bounties.

Other than the feeling that I'm on the clock, I have a problem with excessive visual clutter in full group play. Spells cast by other characters just take too much space, almost like walls of fire cast by Sorceress in D2, and it's often necessary to play by heart.
I hope you guys not suggesting something like removing the group bonus.

Remember that group play/co-op was so dead in early game where the monsters have insane HP scale and damage bonus that turned off many people from playing in co-op.

But I kinda like the idea of making follower more accessible and useful.
They have limited gear slot really made solo play gimped.
04/17/2015 07:13 PMPosted by zenguppy
now after 64 hours, is 397 paragon!


It's always good to see skilled players with 2.5 times the paragon level of my NON-seasonal character on their SEASONAL character.
04/21/2015 12:39 PMPosted by Tyvalir

These are some very well-written and constructive thoughts, and I'm thankful you all shared them here. As a reminder, it's particularly helpful for us to hear not only what aspects of multiplayer versus solo play cause you to feel frustrated, but why they frustrate you too. Similarly, if there are things you happen to enjoy about multiplayer, that’s also good to know since it provides a nice contrast and helps us get a more accurate picture of what your current in-game experience is like.

I'll continue to watch this thread and pass along the constructive feedback I see. Again, sharing both the "what" and "why" creates the best feedback!

(And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.)


I really enjoy Diablo 3 because it is one of the few games that can offer two things that most games do not, whether it is an action shooter, MMORPG, RPG, or whatever...

1. Short session gameplay: Many players are in college, or have careers/families and sometimes only have 15 minutes to play, 30 minutes to play, 2.5 hours late at night to play. Being able to log in, get a few quick runes/games in, and log out is very nice. Being able to log in, start up a rift, and if I suddenly have to log out due to family issues, I can do so and all that I am out is a rift key or something which isnt much. The game being flexible like this really caters to people like myself (casual in the sense that I do not have 24 hours to play like some people, but I am serious and well-versed enough to actually have a shot at leader boards each season).

2. Solo-end game gameplay: For once I am able to play a game, on my own, and progress at my own pace and see that progression. Greater rifts were a great addition for this. I can level up some gems, geat a new piece of gear or so and then go test my meddle in Greater Rifts by pushing the envelope. This is great. And, I can compete with other players on a solo leaderboard for a little added competition. Finally, I don't need to group up with several other people if I do not want to in order to push myself.

However, #2 isn't without its flaws.

1. A lot of the top players on the solo leader boards level up and XP farm in groups prior to attempting any solo greater rifts. One can call this an unfair advantage, another will say that this person has the desire to play in a group and the fortune of doing so. This person will most definitely level up faster than a solo player, paragon level much faster, gear up much faster.

2. Players that group up with their clan and farm out high level greater rift keys seem to have a higher propensity of completing these higher greater rifts. Currently my highest Grift completed is 39. I can probably push to 40, maybe 41. I doubt that in one Trials run that I can farm out a Grift 41+ key. I'll need to complete Grift keys of 35 to get to 39...then 39 to get to 40....and then 40 to get to 41. Meanwhile, the people that are in a clan can get together and easily blow past me into the upper 40s, at the very least, in Trials. Simply put, it is much easier for a group of 4 people to get a Grift 41 key(for example) than it is for a solo player. This allows each of the players in the 4 man group to get into the higher grifts earlier than solo players and complete higher grift levels on the solo leaderboards.

I do have a suggestion for #2: Separate group greater rift keys with non group. If a group of 4 players complete a Trials run and get a Grift 45, they can only use that Grift 45 key in a group of 4. If they want to get a Grift 45 key for solo, they have to complete the Trials solo and push through the Grifts like everyone else.

This will surely piss a lot of people off, but I see it as a glaring problem.
While I prefer to play solo, group runs are overwhelmingly more efficient in gaining exp and potential loot. By far. Even if I solo clear a GR35 in 4 minutes, group clears are less than 2 minutes. If you happen to have a bad chain of deaths in GR's solo play is slowed due to death timer and inability to revive, where as in a multiplayer game they can revive or continue to kill monsters while you wait. I find myself on my phone at long death timers, killing the rhythm I have with the game.

I think adjusting the speed for solo to match or come closer to group speed would make it more enjoyable. Playing a loot game, you always try to find the most efficient way to obtain it and group play as of now is just that.
04/21/2015 10:16 PMPosted by Affectation
04/21/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Agmo
If you chose to play solo then you have to deal with the results of that decision.


What's wrong with providing feedback when the rewards for solo play and group play are so far out of whack? Why do we have to accept the status quo? Just because you said so? No thanks, I think I'll continue make my case to Blizzard and let them decide.

04/21/2015 09:45 PMPosted by Agmo
If you are choosing not to play in a social setting then by it's very nature you are anti-social


You say that as if it's a bad thing... Thank you for clearly demonstrating why I like to play solo.


This is exactly what I was thinking.

It's not for you, Agmo, to decide whether or not we can play solo. It's a barely supported way of playing the game, and really your opinion on whether people should play solo or not has no bearing on that. Sorry, but I'm going to continue playing the game how I like it to be played.
04/21/2015 12:53 PMPosted by Freudian
It's a bit weird that monster HP doesn't fully scale when playing in groups. You already have such a massive advantage due to skills with synergy, do you really need less monster HP per player?
Yes, because players whined about this in D3v. They felt it was "too hard" when scaling was 100% per player as each player had to be similarly geared to feel valued.

04/21/2015 12:53 PMPosted by Freudian
It's just the path of least resistance. If soloing was equally rewarding, a lot of these players would play solo.
In D3v, it was the exact opposite experience. Grouping was torture, because well-geared people were difficult to find. Legendaries did not rain from the sky like they do today (sometimes it took a week to get a single leg drop). In response, group benefits were added, mob health per player joining was cut. It's not that single player was punished, it just didn't garner any benefits. Now the pendulum has swung the other direction.

The fact is: they can't be equal. The reasons are because different group compositions will be different. Having a Monk or Crusader or Witch Doctor that can yield buffs to every single member can not be weighed against having a Wizard that offers little to none. You're trying to balance the summation of every buff in every composition conceivable in group vs that of a solo player.

Having said that, they could still be closer.
04/22/2015 05:05 AMPosted by KevinD
I hope you guys not suggesting something like removing the group bonus.

Remember that group play/co-op was so dead in early game where the monsters have insane HP scale and damage bonus that turned off many people from playing in co-op.

But I kinda like the idea of making follower more accessible and useful.
They have limited gear slot really made solo play gimped.


It's worst for Lyndon. He's straight up missing a gear slot even as a follower. He uses Bows/Xbows, which are "2h weapons" primarily in name (so that other classes can use them if they...for some reason would want to when they can't use an off-hand), but which are itemized as 1-h weapons intended to be used with a class-specific off-hand. Lyndon can't wear a quiver. Eirena can use true 2h weapons and Kormac can wear a shield. In Dex alone this puts Lyndon very far behind the others, due to the 2.5x main stats bonus they receive. He used to have very strong skills to make up for that, but those got nerfed quite heavily when the others were buffed. He's not at all in line with the other two now, and it's a really silly sort of disparity. Granted, the idea is to create an actual build for your followers (and there are some decent CC builds available for him) rather than necessarily worrying about their damage or overall stats, but even that puts Kormac ahead of Lyndon and even Eirena. Lyndon has the most limited weapon choice, and neither he nor Eirena can incorporate an extra legendary bonus as Kormac can.

Lyndon needs to be able to equip quivers. They'll have some specials he can't activate and stats he can't benefit from, but there are already stats and specials that followers can't benefit from.

And wouldn't it be nice if we could use something other than "can't die" for them? Even without Unity, I don't feel like I can afford to have Kormac eating floor. Early in the expac I did run an all-skills Eirena though. But constant follower death becomes a real problem at higher difficulties.

Another thing is getting gear for them if you're not same-stat, but at least if you have any matching-stat alts at all (even lowbies IIRC) you can just reroll stuff for them.

It wasn't something I wanted to bring up earlier, having already written a novel, but followers are another example of something that's been rather neglected for solo play. I agree that the followers could use another look. They shouldn't be enough on their own to close the gap, other things need done for that, but they've been neglected a bit - even after a Blue in the now-defunct Follower discussion forum admitted he couldn't think of any good reason to use Lyndon other than really liking his voice work.
Problem: you get much more drops in a multiplayer game even if you carry the whole game, as long as the others just follow you, it doesnt matter if they are even doing anything else.
So unless you want to get worn down by being beyond ineffienct aka frustrating, you have to join a public game and leech or get leech off.
Anything is better than solo.
Strictly solo player here, always have been and I agree soloing is unfairly penalized.

That said, you all realize they will just nerf grouping benefits over buffing solo benefits, right?
maybe add a selection "fast moving party" and "take your time" in the "join public game " dropdown
or something along those lines
that might help collect like minded people in games instead of what it is now...
Blizzard had it right when the game first came out. Rather than 75% increase per player I believe it was 115% increase when playing on inferno. Because there were synergies between players they determined, correctly, that the monsters should be more than 100% stronger to make up for those.
So I power leveled 2 different characters yesterday in the exact same 3p Cains + Ruby in T6.

One was bounties and the other was rifts...

1 to 70 time:
T6 Bounties: 45 minutes
T6 Rifts: 25 minutes

This game does not reward based on time consumed and difficulty.

Developers want you to play a specific way and penalize you if you don't.

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