Why Dels + Rasha?

Wizard
Prev 1 7 8 9 12 Next
Riiight. Guess someone should tell that KR player who used DelRasha to clear gr57 almost a minute and a half faster than the current US #1 that he's using a noob spec.
05/06/2015 10:33 AMPosted by BDF
05/06/2015 10:25 AMPosted by Boozor
That's sorta the bones of the thread as the "why?"


Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P


I'm disappointed in comments like this. One of the things I really like about this community (of which I have been a lurker a long time, but only recently started posting) was the constructive feedback and support it offered. Not to mention innovative ideas and builds from players like yourself @BDF.

Comments like this just diminish the effort the overall community, comprising serious and casual players alike, is making to find and enjoy new builds - something I'm sure we can all agree has been lacking from Wizards for a little while.
Primus + 5 parts Delsere + 2 parts Tal set + RoRG combined with TP, ST, MI, FO, MM Conflag and BH with Even Horizon = greatest fun I ever had in this game.

Too bad Mirror Images do not profit from the Delsere set bonus or Primus special ability.
05/07/2015 12:15 AMPosted by SkinkyAidy
05/06/2015 10:33 AMPosted by BDF
...

Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P


I'm disappointed in comments like this. One of the things I really like about this community (of which I have been a lurker a long time, but only recently started posting) was the constructive feedback and support it offered. Not to mention innovative ideas and builds from players like yourself @BDF.

Comments like this just diminish the effort the overall community, comprising serious and casual players alike, is making to find and enjoy new builds - something I'm sure we can all agree has been lacking from Wizards for a little while.


You're willingly and knowingly giving up enough dps to substantially lower your clearing potential in favor of a more consistent, safer, and lower dps build.

I'm not sure how you guys wanna spin it, but that is exactly what is happening. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that this can ever approach the same level on the leaderboards as the glassy all-dps options will in a full zombie/teddy bear grift.
05/07/2015 04:32 AMPosted by BDF
...

I'm disappointed in comments like this. One of the things I really like about this community (of which I have been a lurker a long time, but only recently started posting) was the constructive feedback and support it offered. Not to mention innovative ideas and builds from players like yourself @BDF.

Comments like this just diminish the effort the overall community, comprising serious and casual players alike, is making to find and enjoy new builds - something I'm sure we can all agree has been lacking from Wizards for a little while.


You're willingly and knowingly giving up enough dps to substantially lower your clearing potential in favor of a more consistent, safer, and lower dps build.

I'm not sure how you guys wanna spin it, but that is exactly what is happening. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that this can ever approach the same level on the leaderboards as the glassy all-dps options will in a full zombie/teddy bear grift.


The DH forum crunched the numbers and they were convinced that UE was the only way to go and Nats was garbage, then a couple of weeks ago Nats players suddenly took all the top spots on the solo DH rankings. I'm not totally up to date on what's going on with them now but last I heard a solo gr61 was cleared with Nats and I think the highest UE users have gotten so far is 58, maybe 59?

Most people I see on wizard forums are convinced that it's SS/hydra or bust and everything else is 2nd tier. Now the top eu wizard cleared 59 using an AW and no hydras, and as already been mentioned there's that KR player who pulled off that 57 with an AW and DelRasha. While I have no idea how their builds would hold up in groups, how on earth is that "not on the same level" for the solo ladder?
one thing is certain, each build has its strenghts, its about abusing them. An hydra build cant push forward and herd as well as a delrash or aw build while those cant compete on dps... other are better for mid dificulty fast clearing while other will give better group support.... to each its own.

but you guys might also want to consider that mabe not everyone is after those top leaderboard spots, maybe just pushing your own records and having fun is enough?
05/07/2015 05:05 AMPosted by Shrike
The DH forum crunched the numbers and they were convinced that UE was the only way to go and Nats was garbage, then a couple of weeks ago Nats players suddenly took all the top spots on the solo DH rankings. I'm not totally up to date on what's going on with them now but last I heard a solo gr61 was cleared with Nats and I think the highest UE users have gotten so far is 58, maybe 59?


It was never the case that they thought UE was the only way to go for solo, but for groups yes. What was discovered since then was that Area Damage is bugged and not scaling with most new damage multipliers. It still after that might be the best option for group play.

05/07/2015 05:05 AMPosted by Shrike
Most people I see on wizard forums are convinced that it's SS/hydra or bust and everything else is 2nd tier. Now the top eu wizard cleared 59 using an AW and no hydras, and as already been mentioned there's that KR player who pulled off that 57 with an AW and DelRasha. While I have no idea how their builds would hold up in groups, how on earth is that "not on the same level" for the solo ladder?


Again for high lvl groups everything IS poop compared to a properly built hydra. But again solo is a different game. Aether walker traded dps for a ridiculous amount of movespeed greatly increasing the ability to skip through a rift only clearing the highest value white mobs...totally ignoring elites and then relying on pylons to clear the RG within time. They've short-circuited the time-table for fishing for good rifts by just skipping anything that wasn't.

But it is still behind what the best case scenario would be for a higher dps build....that being the perfect rift with low-threat, high-value, very dense mobs. In this scenario what determines your maximum potential clear is only your dps, for which there is no option that touches mammoth hydra.

Slow time neither has mobility, or DPS, so its clears necessarily have a lower maximum potential.

Trading DPS for anything will ALWAYS lower your maximum potential in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions being what eventually make their way to the tip top of the leaderboards due to fishing.

05/07/2015 05:11 AMPosted by ximae
but you guys might also want to consider that mabe not everyone is after those top leaderboard spots, maybe just pushing your own records and having fun is enough?


Yeah that's fine, and I'll likely be using a form of del-rasha because I'm not hardcore about solo clears. But lets call a spade a spade here.

You could make an identical argument for delrasha vs hydra tals by saying it is better to take Esoteric over Trapped. Sure you die less and might even more consistently clear your grifts....but no1 is ever going to claim that you have the same potential as when you were running trapped.
05/07/2015 05:05 AMPosted by Shrike
The DH forum crunched the numbers and they were convinced that UE was the only way to go and Nats was garbage, then a couple of weeks ago Nats players suddenly took all the top spots on the solo DH rankings. I'm not totally up to date on what's going on with them now but last I heard a solo gr61 was cleared with Nats and I think the highest UE users have gotten so far is 58, maybe 59?

Most people I see on wizard forums are convinced that it's SS/hydra or bust and everything else is 2nd tier. Now the top eu wizard cleared 59 using an AW and no hydras, and as already been mentioned there's that KR player who pulled off that 57 with an AW and DelRasha. While I have no idea how their builds would hold up in groups, how on earth is that "not on the same level" for the solo ladder?


AMEN.

And remember slow-ball? It took almost TWO MONTHS before people realized it was the best DH build last year... even with all the napkin math, peeps didn't realize how the constant stream of balls played in real testing.

Or how about Halo with Wizards in season 2? A bunch of the same wizards in this thread panned it hard in multiple threads (look them up) then bamn chumly show's what's really possible when you do REAL testing.

Moral of the stories is open your eyes and quit being douches around here. Wizard forums used to be way more open to both testing and creative thinking collaboration.

#napkin-math.is.for.the.lazy.
05/07/2015 05:05 AMPosted by Shrike
...

You're willingly and knowingly giving up enough dps to substantially lower your clearing potential in favor of a more consistent, safer, and lower dps build.

I'm not sure how you guys wanna spin it, but that is exactly what is happening. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that this can ever approach the same level on the leaderboards as the glassy all-dps options will in a full zombie/teddy bear grift.


The DH forum crunched the numbers and they were convinced that UE was the only way to go and Nats was garbage, then a couple of weeks ago Nats players suddenly took all the top spots on the solo DH rankings. I'm not totally up to date on what's going on with them now but last I heard a solo gr61 was cleared with Nats and I think the highest UE users have gotten so far is 58, maybe 59?

Most people I see on wizard forums are convinced that it's SS/hydra or bust and everything else is 2nd tier. Now the top eu wizard cleared 59 using an AW and no hydras, and as already been mentioned there's that KR player who pulled off that 57 with an AW and DelRasha. While I have no idea how their builds would hold up in groups, how on earth is that "not on the same level" for the solo ladder?


The other thing you guys are forgetting is it is just not about the build itself but this game revolves around gear, you either have it or you don't

A paragon 10,000 player with perfectly rolled ancient gear in every slot and high leveled gems can run either build and be way beyond the other 99% of players.

i have been playing my seasons wizard and still haven't even found a TNT or F+R rings so the build debate is pointless for me as i cant even try it.

Out of curiosity i loaded up my NS wizard last night just to test the tal-hydra build out. still need to find boots but i went through a couple T6 rifts slower than my season delrasha setup.

I am thinking the only point of this debate relates to high grifting which I am not trying yet.

On a side note the idea that people can skip elites and complete a grift is an insanely retarded oversight on blizzards part and should be fixed.
05/07/2015 05:15 AMPosted by BDF
Yeah that's fine, and I'll likely be using a form of del-rasha because I'm not hardcore about solo clears. But lets call a spade a spade here.

You could make an identical argument for delrasha vs hydra tals by saying it is better to take Esoteric over Trapped. Sure you die less and might even more consistently clear your grifts....but no1 is ever going to claim that you have the same potential as when you were running trapped.


you see, the thing is no one is claiming any of these other builds have a higher potential. Really people are vouching for the consistency, the not having to fish for those perfect rifts which is annoying when u dont have too much time or specially access to keys.

that for example is my case, i dont ahve a netwrok of high tier friends anymore, i just play casually with my rl friends and i still havent set up a real push forward group since 2.2 released. we usually are just sitting around the mid 40s coz there is always someone gearing an alt, no support, what ever.

So that means either my higehr keys are scarce or pretty time consuming to get to do all the fishing bull!@#$, also i have the gems at a level where i need those higher grs to level them and since keys are scarce i cant afford to throw them away. So after a few push attempst with awfull rifts, you sort of prefer a conststent build where rift rng doesnt screw you over so bad. Also because at least at my lvl dps isnt an issue even with suboptimal dps builds, its a matter of watching the res timer for too long or not being able to advance more agressively.

then there is also the i like to have fun and try crazy stuff and builds just for kicks or see how far i can push a certain build.... im just not taking the game the game as seriously as others are
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

"Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P"
05/07/2015 06:23 AMPosted by BDF
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

"Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P"


I suppose if you're definition of "playing" is just basically "what does the most damage" then that is correct.

That's a pretty narrow and sad definition of what "playing" this game means though.

-dolynick
05/07/2015 06:23 AMPosted by BDF
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

"Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P"


if you mean " .... then it is to L2P a new build you are still uncomfortable with" I can agree. But I don't think there is less L2P to clear a 57 with Delrasha or a 57 with a pure Tal glascannon build. In one case you have to learn how to efficiently make use of your bubble dot and do enough dps and in the other case you have to learn how to survive consistently.

In the highest GR levels there is no free ticket. Otherwise we would see the leaderboards swamped with the easy-peasy cookie cutter builds all clearing 57+ easily. That doesn't happen. Neither with Delrasha nor with full Tals.
05/07/2015 06:23 AMPosted by BDF
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

"Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P"


That's bull!@#$ elitist reasoning and you know it : "Oh someone prefers a more consistent and safe build over fishing rifts? He must really learn how to play this game!".

Fact of the matter is that no amount of L2P is going to help you beat certain GR's. No amount of L2P is going to stop you from getting killed often with glass cannon builds, even on those GR's you manage to clear. Delrasha builds, like that of bjornh, make that RNG a lot more manageable. It's the exact same reason as to why I prefer Unity over CoE, eventhough I'm currently using CoE anyways because I want to progress somewhat. Skipping Unity suddenly makes a bunch of GR's hardly bearable and means I have to pray for atleast some GR factors to go my way.

But ofcourse people dieing with glass cannon builds and fishing for rifts while abandoning a lot of them all need to L2P, right? Eventhough that includes the vast majority of the top players.
05/07/2015 06:42 AMPosted by Shiimiish
if you mean " .... then it is to L2P a new build you are still uncomfortable with" I can agree. But I don't think there is less L2P to clear a 57 with Delrasha or a 57 with a pure Tal glascannon build. In one case you have to learn how to efficiently make use of your bubble dot and do enough dps and in the other case you have to learn how to survive consistently.

In the highest GR levels there is no free ticket. Otherwise we would see the leaderboards swamped with the easy-peasy cookie cutter builds all clearing 57+ easily. That doesn't happen. Neither with Delrasha nor with full Tals.


Yup, pretty much.
05/05/2015 11:01 AMPosted by Machado
05/05/2015 10:36 AMPosted by bjornh
Made a d3planner snapshot for you: http://www.d3planner.com/626050012

Does CoE work correctly with the bubbles ? Or do you have to time the bubbles to take advantage of the correct element ?

Also, I hate this word, bubbles.

It updates dynamically, you don't have to time anything.
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

" its easier to hide behind a bubble " or an apd + cc combo " than to have to deal with this games Grift rng."


here there you go, corrected you so u sound less like a prick
Well.

That escalated quickly.
05/07/2015 06:23 AMPosted by BDF
So yeah, that's why I still stand by my characterization of:

"Because it is easier to hide behind a bubble then it is to L2P"


This has got to be the single most inane statement made in this whole thread.

That's like saying that it's easier to hide behind Calamity stuns or Blizzard slow/freeze, than it is to L2P.

Slow Time is just another means to an end, every build has CC or it wouldn't be remotely competitive in GRs.

Nobody in here is trying to make the claim that Delrasha (or whatever you want to call it) deals as much single target damage as a Tal6/FR/SS Hydra build.

All that has been said, and that nobody can contest, it that it has the capacity to break into the low 50s (and apparently 57 in KR) without needing to farm until RNGesus gifts you with an Ancient SS. That is the major draw factor of the build to a lot of people... that the gear is significantly easier to acquire than some of the other "top tier" builds like AW and Hydra.

This isn't an L2P issue. This is simply a matter of RNG for a lot of people. I would love to have an ancient SS that I could use to try out other builds with. I'd love to have an ancient AW. But I don't have them. So I play this build, because it is easy to gear for. I can break into the 50s with relative ease, and for that reason alone, is why people are playing Delrasha.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum