how do we look into fixing our defense issues

Monk
It has been mentioned more than once that our defense needs another look. But what would be reasonable solutions?
Would it be worth considering bring back our old one with everything passive. When we were losing our dodge increase from mainstat some suggested making our mainstat give a hybrid boost of armor and all resist. New passive all together? What are your thoughts?
06/02/2015 12:10 PMPosted by Blackglitch
Would it be worth considering bring back our old one with everything passive.

Jeez no. I don't want to deal with that one again, always having to worry if the secondary resistances will match is/was horrible.

I have a question; how are the Barbs dealing with this issue? Don't really know anything about them tbh, so could someone explain?
On paper, the Monk's defense doesn't look that bad, Dex gives us free armor, we have Harmony and Sixth Sense, Epiphany/Desert Shroud and so on. But we are still considered to be squishy.
To be honest I think our defense is quite OK. You can be as tanky as you want. Of course it depends on the situation and in some cases you try to get as much DPS as possible, which comes at the expense of defense, but that is fine. You have to find your balance. For solo greater rifts, APDs on non-season give us a lot of defense, while for season we have spirit guards and the new Fire RCR spec gives you 100% uptime on Epiphany and Inner Sanctuary, which is a lot of defense, coupled with activating mantra if you need it. So, yeah I personally don't think monk's biggest concern is defense at all.
i've been playing Barb recently as I've hit a wall with my monks...

Barb feels a heck more solid than Monk. I'm literally running through grifts hardly taking any damage albeit haven't tried a high grift like my monk. Barb seems to me to have better ways of deflecting the damage... immortal follower plus the CoTA spreading damage is crazy. their defense against affixes hurt a bit more though.

Monk has to have Harmony or Sixth Sense or both, NDE, MoS-Agility, a defensive gem and LoH to survive. And Beacon is mandatory for CDR which goes to Desert Shroud/serenity/inner sanctuary uptime... thats alot going into defense.

just my 2 cents
Blizzard took out OWE because nearly all monks have to use it to survive. Ironically, almost every monks now have to use Epiphany and Inner Sanctuary to survive. I find that Barb and Monks (2 truly melee classes) is more or less the same defensively. However, I observe that the monk 1st hit has a slight delay in it while the Barb does not has it. The delay may reduce the LoH possible and hence reduce survivability.
In the sense of barb vs monk comparison. For barbs they have more skills than us that can cut global damage off
    CoTA 50%

    WoTB 50%

    ignore pain 50%

    new whirlwind set 40%


We only have epiphany and inner sanctuary but IS will instantly lose it's effectiveness against monsters that are known for kiting. barbs beat us out by having not only better defensive options in that they can be be easily maintained constantly but more than us.
Making mantra of salvation a flat damage reduction would be a major help for our defensive options as a start.
If you look at this patch's reworked Wrath of the Wastes set 4pc, Reworked Nat's 6pc, and UE's 4pc, they all have 20-40% damage reduction built into the set via some easy to achieve trigger for a short duration in the same vein as Spirit Guard only requiring a generator.

So my guess is the *NEW* monk set in 2.3 will also have 40% Damage reduction integrated into a set bonus, and put us on equal footing after they remove perma-CC, even if we have to supplement with SoE, SG, or a gem. Let's just hope the new set isn't the only viable one, and do enough Damage*Area to be viable in group dps role! ^_^
I would think that spirit guards and a good set with 40% reduction would just be a little op. The only thing I can think of that would make that work is have one of the pieces be bracers forcing you to use rorg if you want both.
06/03/2015 06:52 AMPosted by Davlok
So my guess is the *NEW* monk set in 2.3 will also have 40% Damage reduction integrated into a set bonus

Isn't the new set supposed to be a SSS-themed set? I mean, if we would use SSS all the time we wouldn't really need DMG-reduction tied into the boni.

@Backglitch
ty
06/03/2015 08:28 AMPosted by Volun
06/03/2015 06:52 AMPosted by Davlok
So my guess is the *NEW* monk set in 2.3 will also have 40% Damage reduction integrated into a set bonus

Isn't the new set supposed to be a SSS-themed set? I mean, if we would use SSS all the time we wouldn't really need DMG-reduction tied into the boni.

@Backglitch
ty


Davlok put a good point I think with the set that I neglected to think about. IF the pattern in followed with what blizz did with the other newest sets then I think it is reasonable that we expect some form of damage reduction. I am sure that blizz will find every way to make sure that we can't be in a permanent state and in the worst case I can see SSS getting the same treatment as serenity in that the cooldown will only start after the skill finishes.

In the case about spirit bracers being mixed with this potential it would simply make the playing field more even between us and barbs, with barbs still having the slight advantage in defense.

Another addition I would say making IS being able to be locked to your monks movement, a lot I think.

Also sorry whats the ty for, i can't think of what I did.
06/02/2015 05:57 PMPosted by Slime
Blizzard took out OWE because nearly all monks have to use it to survive.
The reason Blizzard took out OWE is because the introduction of the Mystic would render the monk indestructible.
06/03/2015 11:07 AMPosted by FredVIII
06/02/2015 05:57 PMPosted by Slime
Blizzard took out OWE because nearly all monks have to use it to survive.
The reason Blizzard took out OWE is because the introduction of the Mystic would render the monk indestructible.


But we are now seeing that we are noticeably the squishiest melee class. I only suggested that idea for the sake of discussion. I am aware that it was a major hurdle for the lower end players and caused a rift in the monk community for those being able to get to T6 when that was the highest gameplay and we are the weakest class overall without some of the rarest items in the game at the time.

Now it is MUCH easier to gear up so I don't think it would be unreasonable to put it on the table to bring back OWE.
Time goes on and games become easier, not harder; Diablo 3 caters to the casual player for better or worse.

That said, even with the increased drop rate, I imagine it would still be a serious grind to find full sets with the correct resist. This would make the monk class even more unattractive to play.

9 pieces of non-ancient gear and I've only got 1300 resists; I would argue against our old OWE passive.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Justinian-1734/hero/39560949
Well how about something that increases your all resist by an equivalent percentage of your armor?
Bringing back OWE just means all monks will be re-rolling element resists into a particular element resist. This would take away any decisions about what to re-roll and make going to the Mystic a chore. A really boring chore.
06/03/2015 07:13 PMPosted by FredVIII
Bringing back OWE just means all monks will be re-rolling element resists into a particular element resist. This would take away any decisions about what to re-roll and make going to the Mystic a chore. A really boring chore.


Well she is really only a set above kadala in terms of who is the highlight of my day
06/03/2015 08:28 AMPosted by Volun
06/03/2015 06:52 AMPosted by Davlok
So my guess is the *NEW* monk set in 2.3 will also have 40% Damage reduction integrated into a set bonus

Isn't the new set supposed to be a SSS-themed set? I mean, if we would use SSS all the time we wouldn't really need DMG-reduction tied into the boni.

I doubt it will promote perma SSS gameplay, and revolve more like the current Natalya's set where maybe we do 400% more damage and take 40% less damage for 7 seconds after using SSS.

Then we can use Inner Fire again! ^_^
06/02/2015 03:09 PMPosted by Lazar
To be honest I think our defense is quite OK. You can be as tanky as you want. Of course it depends on the situation and in some cases you try to get as much DPS as possible, which comes at the expense of defense, but that is fine. You have to find your balance. For solo greater rifts, APDs on non-season give us a lot of defense, while for season we have spirit guards and the new Fire RCR spec gives you 100% uptime on Epiphany and Inner Sanctuary, which is a lot of defense, coupled with activating mantra if you need it. So, yeah I personally don't think monk's biggest concern is defense at all.


I'd have to agree with this. Monks have a lot of defense options at their disposal and it's not their top concern. I tend to think the barbarian has it worse in this case.

Monks now have Spirit Bracers that give you 40% reduced damage.
You can get 50% from Epiphany.
Inner sanctuary gets you 55% with a 30% damage increase rune. Only drawback is you have to stand in it.
Mantra of Salvation gets you 20% AR with 35% dodge rune.
Blinding Flash negates a lot of damage and gives you a huge DPS increase and is very spammable.
Dashing strike's cold rune will even give you 40% dodge chance.

Monk's have access to a lot of defensive options and you don't have to give up too much to get them. There are always tradeoffs.

The tradeoffs with the barbarians though are huge. You get 40% damage reduction from the WW set while WWing. That's easy. 50% reduction from CotA is really good. But if your ancients die at higher GRifts or you die, the time it takes to wait for CotA to come off CD is huge and you are very vulnerable. 50% reduction from WotB comes at a cost of not picking up a 50% DPS increase. Ignore pain's 50% is really good and can be up 100% of the time with enough CD and a belt slot. That's not too painful to achieve.
Monks have a large trade off. I made a post about it before but it is directly related to our top priority requirement of CDR in all all items for all our high end builds. I know the first response that will be put to it is "but we have obsidian ring" or "just use spirit bracers". Not every monk is playing seasons I think it is simply foolish to lock item's especially build defining items behind season since it alienates a significantly large group, but that is off topic.

I think a reason why so many are saying that our defense is in a good place is simply out of the memory of it now compared to our days of dex giving dodge and monks being killed simply if a monster farts in your direction. Compared to then yes it is most definitely better, but there is no doubt that there is still need for improvement.

I think we could use another skill that gives flat damage reduction. I am confident that is the factor that puts barbs over us. That can be fixed through mantra of salvation, make the base effect a flat damage reduction of 25%, it shouldn't end up over the top like that and would be an effective buff over the current option. Make inner sanctuary's center be locked to the monk's movement either as a built in mechanic or through an item induced effect, that would make it truly reliable. Obsidian ring was a great idea and even monks are able to enjoy the boost from it but other classes like barb with IK, DH with nats, and WD with SMK are able to pair up their class specific item and effectively double dip the effect. Since our best defensive skills are time based maybe look into making item effect(s) that will increase the time they last by a certain amount. The changes don't really have to be drastic to be a massive improvement.
06/04/2015 05:36 PMPosted by Blackglitch
I think we could use another skill that gives flat damage reduction. I am confident that is the factor that puts barbs over us.


I am not sure what metric you are using to make the assertion that barbs are over us. Highest GR clears for non-season are within a couple of levels of each other and on season monk is 2 levels ahead of barb. In 4-man groups neither barbs nor monks are in the high end, but for speed rifts monks are always a good choice and don't really have any defensive issue whether they run a full support spec or as an EP monk. On the other hand there are some very innovative builds for 3-man groups, where monks play a lockdown/support role and actually tank mobs. But all-in-all it is quite difficult to make cross-class comparisons and these will never be quite fair. We don't want to have the same skills or skills that essentially give the same effect as barb's skills, right?

06/04/2015 05:36 PMPosted by Blackglitch
That can be fixed through mantra of salvation, make the base effect a flat damage reduction of 25%, it shouldn't end up over the top like that and would be an effective buff over the current option.


If they make such a fix, Mantra of Salvation might become too good and would almost become mandatory.

Finally, as I've mentioned earlier in my opinion monks can be as defensive as they want if for example you stack full defense, but of course that is usually not the point. I think it's more about finding a balance, where your defense is up to par, but your damage is also high enough. This can be done through a combination of items and their effects (obsidian ring and spirit bracers on season) or skills (windblast or tsunami and APDs on non-season). For example, I don't have many issues surviving in a solo 56 rift on non-season, just because mobs are always frozen and APDs provide amazing survivability with density. I usually find that damage is what I'm lacking and I even go with green gems in gear, while white gems would give me an even bigger boost in defense.

In what context do you find that monks have defensive issues?

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