The obvious problem with D3: nothing matters

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06/13/2015 10:57 AMPosted by Cupcakes
Bullcrap. Any player can play any way the player wants to play. Sometimes the "rewards" will be greater, and sometimes less. No player deserves any item or any other reward of any kind (other than the inherent, entire-point-of-the-game monster-killing, natch).

OK. Go play with whites.

06/13/2015 08:39 PMPosted by whitemike
Here's the plan: make new sets every season for each class to keep us coming to check em out

When new sets come out I'll try me out and play a lil while.

Definition of casual game.
06/14/2015 04:02 AMPosted by DarkSol
Do you realize why 99% of legendaries are "pointless"?
Cause they are raining on us. We outgear ourtselves faster then we could get those legendaries to use.

Tiny piece of gold #1.

06/14/2015 04:02 AMPosted by DarkSol
Remember those days in Vanilla when legendaries were even crappier but they were LEGENDARY? Miss those days.

Tiny piece of gold #2.

Nice post.
its just sooo sad that the item system is still so poor :(

whites, blues & yellows = insta trash ... salvage all button hello !
legendaries = also 90+% insta trash and just no good experience overall to pick something up and beeing exited about it ... its just like another yellow item you can instantly salvage because u have no use for it ! back in d2 even a common unique was not useless .. at least you could have traded it for some other useful items but in d3 u can only get another soul .. that is just so unsatisfying,
sets = almost same as legendaries ... once u got them u got them and every other piece just need higher numbers = BOOORING

the complete loot in d3 is still soo booring even in d3V the loot was more exiting than its now
I can gear a character in under 2 days, and then spend 1000 hours just to look for a single item as progression. Blizzard thinks thats ok.
What made D2 so enjoyable for me was playing different builds. The lack of skill trees and real choices in this game is what i dislike the most about it. I really can't believe that there is a Diablo game without skill trees and magic find. Once you get a character to a certain point there is no reason whatsoever to play the game. Once you have tried all of the characters there is no longer a build or skill that is new or exciting. Even if they had a set for every skill in the game, the fact that you can change skills at will and that you have already tried every skill in the game makes the replay non-existent.

The only reason for hunting items in higher levels of D2 was to gear OTHER characters so that you could try different builds. With "smart drops" you can really only farm for your current character which makes no sense whatsoever because once you have a toon that can farm efficiently there is no reason to farm more gear for them.

Greater Rifts and competition are for the people that seem to have give their entire life to playing the game. 99% of the player base has no chance to compete with people that spend their entire day and half the night playing nonstop.

The bottom line is that we have already tried every skill in the game which is why there seems to be no point in playing at all.

There is not another game in the genre that made these mistakes and no other game has less replay value for the players.

Yes, there are some people that love the game as it is but most people stopped playing this game a long time ago and will never return unless they give it a major overhaul with an entirely new system of skills and items that make replay fun.
06/12/2015 11:44 PMPosted by Tohki
White items don't matter.
Blue items don't matter.
Yellow items don't matter.
99% of orange items don't matter (with no exaggeration).
Skills don't matter.


i have made 2 of each class and geared them all this season.

characters don't matter.

when the new season starts, i will have to delete them all, because i won't play non-season, and i will need as many character slots as i can get to do it all over again. my progress is all for naught.

this needs to be addressed, and i don't know how at all. i have made quite the glorious effort to get all these things and progress so far, further than any RPG i have ever done (yes, 2 of EACH class, with gear for almost all the real builds and their variations in the game.)

this effort has an abrupt end when those characters get merged down and all that progression will not have mattered in any way. i will delete those characters and their gear all just to get the new stuff on new characters. they don't even get a "fallen heroes' kind of tombstone. perhaps switching from seasons to a kind of ladder system that doesn't separate my characters, but somehow will reset... idk...

something must be done about that, and i don't know what...
06/13/2015 09:26 AMPosted by coh
every decent multiplayer should have a working trading system.


this. seriously. we got the far opposite end of having an auction house: 2 hours to trade ONLY with those in the party WHEN THE ITEM DROPS.

they sure showed those chinese scammers... there MUST be a better middle ground.
ITT: People get butthurt upon realizing that a well crafted Skinner Box is still, in fact, a Skinner Box.

06/12/2015 11:44 PMPosted by Tohki
Nothing in this game allows the player to play the game as they'd like to play it.


This is true of literally every game that has ever been made. That's why games are a system of rules upon rules upon rules, all interacting with each other based on the player's choices within that system.

Perhaps you'd enjoy a game with a less rigid rule system? Like Minecraft? Or Garry's Mod? Or sheets of paper and a box of crayons? The only rules in those "games" are the limits of your imagination!

"But I want Diablo 3 to play like Diablo 2!"

You know, there's already a game out that's very similar to Diablo 2 and plays just like it. It's called Diablo 2. Perhaps you've heard of it?
I agree completely with the op and it is quite well written. I will talk about something not for the purpose of boasting but to illustrate a point. I was #1 ranked Magic the Gathering player in Nova Scotia and far ahead of the guy in second place. I was innovative and proud of it and I spent a huge amount of money and time playing the game, it was just awesome. I haven't played in over 10 years. Why? Because all of a sudden the company designing the game decided it would be a good idea to make cards that were so powerful that they could not be ignored. Oh you used Card A? It has great synergy with card B! Now all you need is filler C and D and your deck is complete!

The new cards were so powerful that my deck designing abilities became pointless and I was given the choice of either playing the popular decks or quitting, I chose to quit. This is why I don't play Diabo 3 as well, I feel that Blizzard thinks we are all idiots too dumb to make builds on our own. This hand holding design philosophy has ruined the game for me. The only reason I still post from time to time is for the glimmering hope that one day things will change and I can play again and have fun playing MY way.
06/14/2015 06:30 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
ITT: People get butthurt upon realizing that a well crafted Skinner Box is still, in fact, a Skinner Box.


There's nothing wrong with a Skinner Box. The problem with D3 is that it's not a well crafted Skinner Box; it just happens to be the prettiest. If it were well crafted, then participating would offer some form of reward for the player. D3 is losing players because there's no payout for investing time in the game. There isn't even a way to weed out tiers of items via difficulty, which is extremely bizarre in an ARPG. The only difficulty threshold is the torment only gear, but t1 and t6 are not equal; and GRift30 and GRift50 are not equal, but the quality of the items found in either mode doesn't reflect that.

More importantly though, D3 doesn't give the players any leeway to experiment with the variables in the game. The devs have created sets that increase the damage of specific skill by 500%; it doesn't matter how clever and creative a player can get with their skills, there is no way to compete with that. In the D3 Skinner Box, 90% of the food is wax, and the other 10% have a good chance of being stale, or rotted (bad rolls).

D2 was also a Skinner Box, but the variety offered in the skill trees across 7 different classes did a great job to cut through the monotony. Because the power of a build was in the skill trees instead of weapon damage, there were a multitude of builds that were competitive in Hell mode using all rare items, unless the player found a very rare blue item with +3 to x skills. Maybe they were even using a runeword, which gave value to white gear with the proper amount of sockets. Finds were less frequent, but they mattered. In D3, you have six legendary items dropping per rift, but it's all garbage; and the yellow and blue gear stays on the floor unless you're short on mats. At a certain point, all progression, which already revolves around gear, will revolve around Kadala. Players have a way better shot at finding an ultra rare legendary with a .5% drop rate, or even just a better version of a set item they already have (item effectiveness variance in this game is a joke; random stats on set and legendary items never should have happened) by using Kadala than by getting drop in rifts. My whole gameplay experience became collecting blood shards and EVERYTHING else went to salvage.

Around 75% of the gear on my two crusaders (and the DH) all came from Kadala. If memory serves, ONLY the weapons didn't come from Kadala. Did I find any copies of that gear in rifts? Yes, but the versions on my characters came from Kadala because I needed the "right version" of that gear. It blisters my !@# to even say that; the "right version" of a set or legendary item. What a massive joke.
06/14/2015 06:30 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
This is true of literally every game that has ever been made. That's why games are a system of rules upon rules upon rules, all interacting with each other based on the player's choices within that system.

Perhaps you'd enjoy a game with a less rigid rule system? Like Minecraft? Or Garry's Mod? Or sheets of paper and a box of crayons? The only rules in those "games" are the limits of your imagination!

"But I want Diablo 3 to play like Diablo 2!"

You know, there's already a game out that's very similar to Diablo 2 and plays just like it. It's called Diablo 2. Perhaps you've heard of it?


Yes, every game has rules. But plenty of games allow unexpected gameplay to develop from those rules. This is present is just about every successful multiplayer game. It's also present in athletic competitions, which also have strict rules.

D3 clamps down doors on gameplay. There's no such thing as emergent gameplay when the difference between using the sets and using not the sets is foregoing a 500% damage amp of a main spender. A game with this many variables in the skills and gear should have at least some room for experimentation and emergent gameplay that is as effective as what the devs are pushing in the sets, but not if sets are boiled down to "6p: this skill now does insane damage". How drab.

The irony of D3 is that you have a skill system with many possibilities, and you add in a gear system with many more possibilities, and then the devs balance endgame gameplay by dictating which builds are viable for it via the sets, and then all that variety doesn't matter anymore. Even the affix variety, which should be really exciting and deep because hey, any combination of affixes can roll on any item. Is there a better framework for endless possibilities? Yet it doesn't matter because monster defensive scaling is designed around player plowing through them, stacked on crit and crit damage, and rocking a 500% damage amp from their set bonus. There's no defensive arrangement of stats that will still provide enough damage to kill something like that.

You're coming from this position of "the devs are right, and you're all wrong/nostalgic/whining", but all you're arguing is that more options for players will turn the game into something designed for children? What would you call the game now? Now there's no decision making for the player consider when gearing out their character or picking out skills; that whole process has been set in stone, and there is only one, linear way for someone to progress.
06/12/2015 11:44 PMPosted by Tohki
White items don't matter.
Blue items don't matter.
Yellow items don't matter.
99% of orange items don't matter (with no exaggeration).
Skills don't matter.


My friend just started playing the game and he just hit level10.
Apparently, every thing you just listed matter for him.
My position is very simple:

None of your complaints about Diablo 3 matter. If they did, Blizzard would have made the game you think they have should have made. Instead, they made the game we have before us. What you or I or anyone else here think about that game is ultimately irrelevant because it's not our game, it's Blizzard's. When we bought Diablo 3, we just paid for the privilege of experiencing it. In doing so, we consented to being subjected to the system of rules around which they designed the game.

You are free to not play Diablo 3, and clearly you don't as evidenced by your admittance that you have not played this game since patch 2.1. But for those of us who exercise our right as players to choose play this game, it's very frustrating to be repeatedly told by some arrogant jagoff that we're wasting our time playing a terrible game because said jagoff wishes it was more like Diablo 2.

Who are you again, and why should we give a crap what you think about our taste in games? We're capable of exercising independent thought; don't you think that if we wanted to play Diablo 2, we would be? Don't you think that if we thought Diablo 3 was bad, we wouldn't be playing it? Why does us disagreeing with you about the quality of this game incense you to the point where you choose to start threads about how bad it is? Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than pen self-indulgent rants about games you don't play and fish for sycophants to clap their flippers and bark in agreement?

As an advocate for player choice, perhaps you should exercise that choice and choose to play any one of the thousands upon thousands of games readily available to you. I choose to go months at a time without playing this game, and then I choose to pop back in to play it for about two or three weeks before I choose to stop again. At no point during those windows of time where I'm not playing Diablo 3 do I feel the need to come to these forums and whine about the game. In fact, at no point during those windows of time where I'm not playing any of the thousands upon thousands of games readily available to me do I insert myself into the communities that have formed around those games and proceed to complain about them. Because I'm not an entitled a-hole who thinks my subjective opinions about video games are some gospel truth that everyone must agree with.

Now kindly piss off.
06/13/2015 12:04 AMPosted by Blade
Ahh...... This is a holiday for me. After 3000++hours playtime. Have been a blast. Will come back after seasons. Recommend a change of playstyle. Have been blasting energy twister in t6.
Yeah this.

It seems that the game is not friendly to toxic players that just want the best gear to fall out from the sky or something.

White items are useful in level < 3. Blues are useful in level < 10, rares are useful throguhout the game until paragon ~50 , trash legendaries are useful the first couple hundred paragons and so and so. There's a progression. It would be excellent if white and blue items stopped dropping once you are level 60. But otherwise you can just ignore them.

Rares would work pretty well if there was trading. But the community is too toxic and ruined trading when the game was first released. So that's not something we can fix :(
legendary item is only trash because we get so many of them so easily. Imagine you play all day and only get 2 or 3 max a day. You be happy if any even drop for you because they will be an upgrade over white or blue you equip. I remember the initial release, legendary was very rare and where very happy that any legendary even drop, however ever most where utter crap. They where even weaker than blue item, can roll any primary stats, and even stats that belong to low level. like a level 70 item would get only 100 or 200 str on it.
If any legendary today where to drop at initial release everyone would be extremely happy.
sad but true. i found this out before season 3 started. i had a barb. then i find out wait... i have to charge? wtf i really dont like to play like that. but if i wanted to do well i HAD too.
now im on a demon hunter on season 3. somewhat better except i cant engage any monsters cuz the whirlwinding barbarians get to have all the fun while i follow them on a minimap ..
game is getting boring fast. just installed PoE today to check it out. also just started up on d2 ladder season. so far d2 has offered much more enjoyment. even though i've played it since its release.
ive made 2 characters in d3 so far. neither is fully geared and im already bored. mostly with the idea that im being forced to play a certain way for my character to be even remotely as effective as the rest of the players. who also play with the same items and nvm i could go on forever with this. game will die unless its fixed. items should enhance builds and offer creativity. they shouldn't be the builds themselves and stifle creativity.
06/14/2015 07:48 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
None of your complaints about Diablo 3 matter. If they did, Blizzard would have made the game you think they have should have made. Instead, they made the game we have before us. What you or I or anyone else here think about that game is ultimately irrelevant because it's not our game, it's Blizzard's. When we bought Diablo 3, we just paid for the privilege of experiencing it. In doing so, we consented to being subjected to the system of rules around which they designed the game.


So, never have an opinion or offer feedback.

06/14/2015 07:48 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
You are free to not play Diablo 3, and clearly you don't as evidenced by your admittance that you have not played this game since patch 2.1. But for those of us who exercise our right as players to choose play this game, it's very frustrating to be repeatedly told by some arrogant jagoff that we're wasting our time playing a terrible game because said jagoff wishes it was more like Diablo 2.


I never told anyone to stop playing D3. I stated why I stopped playing D3. Apparently it was a popular opinion.

06/14/2015 07:48 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
Who are you again, and why should we give a crap what you think about our taste in games? We're capable of exercising independent thought; don't you think that if we wanted to play Diablo 2, we would be? Don't you think that if we thought Diablo 3 was bad, we wouldn't be playing it? Why does us disagreeing with you about the quality of this game incense you to the point where you choose to start threads about how bad it is? Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than pen self-indulgent rants about games you don't play and fish for sycophants to clap their flippers and bark in agreement?


I never told anyone what to do. I'm not sure what you're reading, but it's not anything I posted. I only used my own experience with the game in this thread. A handful of people could relate. If you'll take a quick glimpse at the most popular threads, then you'll see that they all pertain to disappointment with features in the game.

06/14/2015 07:48 PMPosted by Rumpelfugly
As an advocate for player choice, perhaps you should exercise that choice and choose to play any one of the thousands upon thousands of games readily available to you. I choose to go months at a time without playing this game, and then I choose to pop back in to play it for about two or three weeks before I choose to stop again. At no point during those windows of time where I'm not playing Diablo 3 do I feel the need to come to these forums and whine about the game. In fact, at no point during those windows of time where I'm not playing any of the thousands upon thousands of games readily available to me do I insert myself into the communities that have formed around those games and proceed to complain about them. Because I'm not an entitled a-hole who thinks my subjective opinions about video games are some gospel truth that everyone must agree with.


Apparently, you think the only right choice is the choice that you would make. The point of a forum is to discuss things. If you disagree with someone's opinion, then that's fine; discuss it. You seem to be taking the stance that you're on a moral high ground of some sort, and your opinions matter beyond what anyone else in this thread has to say. This entire wall of text is you calling me a bad person, or a bad gamer, or a bad something for having an opinion. You also seem to think that the existence of this opinion means it's being dictated directly to you.

I haven't told anyone not to play D3.
I haven't attacked anyone for continuing to play D3.
All I've offered here is my play experience, and why I believe the game goes stale so quickly for so many players.
You're in here telling everyone to adhere to your opinion on D3 or else shut up. A real "listen and believe" mindset; and you've done it with a consistently arrogant air. If you don't agree with the points made, attacking the point, or refuting the logic behind the point would contribute to the discussion. Rolling in and jiving like you're the king of opinions, so everyone just shut up, does nothing.

I keep thinking to myself, as I read through your posts, that the projection is fascinating.

To make it clear to you, the major gripe from my "camp" is that there are items, skills, and features that exist within the game, which are rendered meaningless in existence after only a moderate amount of time invested. For items, on a long enough time line, eventually nothing will matter. However, for skills, it is severely frustrating that so many variations of skills exist, yet only a small grab of them see the light of day. Players aren't asking for a rash of new skills or gear. Players are asking that what currently exists in the game becomes relevant. It is tantalizing to see all these skills and items, and maybe even get excited at the thought of using them, only to realize that it hasn't been selected by the devs to be useful.

Hell, in D2, most builds had interchangeable sets of gear. A general set for caster and melee could cover all the general bases for builds that fit those styles. The diversity came from the skills, because gear didn't favor specific skills obtusely more than others. So with one set of gear, I could experience 3 or 4 builds on one class that all employed a different play style to be most effective. Like it or not, I'm allowed to say this, and people are allowed to agree with it.
Posted by Tohki
Nothing in this game allows the player to play the game as they'd like to play it.

Well put.


or when we can play it the way we'd like to play it.....
they change it...... ie nerf nerf, nerf nerf nerf nerf..... ok you can play again now

(what's that, you found a new way to play that you like and is powerful even after all those nerfs.... nerf nerf, have a nice day)

having said that a lot of nerfs have been necessary.... but they were put there in the first place
it feels too much like we are being controlled on how we can play rather than exactly what was said, how we'd like to play

I mean there are so many builds and great items to choose from..... unless you want to really push high, which is kinda the whole point of the game so we are ultimately restricted to the most powerful option

and again, we have found a way to perma cc the impossible to kill in under 35 minute bosses at gr60+ so we can progress......

here

comes

the

NERF

(note* although having said that and gotten my frustration out of the way in doing so, I do sincerely hope that the changes coming will allow other classes at least to compete in higher grifts without purely being the support role)
06/12/2015 11:44 PMPosted by Tohki
The inescapable truth about D3 is that Blizzard just doesn't care.
Give it up.

It was clear right from the start the new Blizzard didn't understand this franchise.

From dark-ish gothic horror to disney style comedy. From character development to all gear = power. The complete removal of immunities (which means there is no sacrifice to player choice at all)...

It's well known for a hundred years by now that giving a player everything without consequence is BAD game design. OP said it correctly: nothing matters. Not even complaining about it. The foundation of the game is broken at its core.

Only a new Diablo game can safe it. And yes, if done properly, I'd buy it.

I won't bother much with this one anymore though. The only reason I'm here again was to see if something changed for the better. But with Blizzard's year-long development cycles I should have known better. Maybe I'll play it some again this year, or maybe not.. not so excited about it.

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