FROZEN is out of control

General Discussion
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09/15/2015 08:52 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
This discussion is to help the dev team determine how to allow us to progress further as difficulties scale ever more in (most prominently) GR. As of right now, at the limit end of 70+ (lol 60+ for me), some affixes begin to one shot me. Whereas a GR lvl or two below that limit, I am still just fine. Like I said, it's at this point the data is beginning to skew.

There will always be a balance in stacking effective toughness to help survive at such high damage levels. The point of the discussion is to figure out how can players stack the "right amount" and still progress 5 more GR levels. In that regard, frozen (and other things I've tried to sum up) are features that need a closer look. There is a difference between whining and discussing.


It's a fair point that small inequalities will scale into life-or-death differences at extremely high greater rifts, but the thing I remain to be convinced of is why that's bad. You guys have this notion that Frozen should be equally deadly as every other affix out there. By roughly the same logic, I should complain that Plagued doesn't do enough damage. It's already -fact- that Frozen does more. The premise shouldn't be that "Jailer didn't one-shot me on GR71 and Frozen did, therefore Frozen is overtuned." My assertion is that Frozen is fine as is, it's okay to have differences. It's not particularly deadly at anything Torment X and below, and it's something to keep an eye on when you go higher. If you're getting to the point that something like Frozen is one-shotting you, perhaps you're a bit outside the range of rifts you should be running.

As you pointed out, there is a difference between whining and discussing. As a discussion point, what role is it that you guys want Frozen to play in the game (or for that matter, what roles should all the affixes play)? What is it that makes Frozen a fun (or not fun) affix? Those will be far more valuable feedback and will give other members of the community an opportunity to share their insight. I don't think tweaking the individual numbers here will fix the core issue that players are complaining about. There's clearly a disconnect between what Frozen is, and what players believe it should be.
09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
As a discussion point, what role is it that you guys want Frozen to play in the game


To briefly answer your question. I think Frozen is unique in the sense that it is an AOE crowd control affix that is deadly if caught. It should slow you down while charging (and not do damage) and freeze you (as is) to allow monsters to pound on the player.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
What is it that makes Frozen a fun (or not fun) affix?


It's fun in the sense that you have to actually try to actively avoid it if you don't want to be helpless when it freezes you.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
By roughly the same logic, I should complain that Plagued doesn't do enough damage.


Yes you can but I'm sure being the sensible person that you are, you can understand nerfing one affix is easier than buffing every other affix.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
for that matter, what roles should all the affixes play


Quite a lot to list and discuss but to be brief... Arcane is similar in its charge time but obviously as the beam moves you have to avoid massive damage as it rotates, different from Frozen (as it should be by damage vs no damage) but fun and unique. Plague does very little damage as you mentioned but it is meant to stack over time. This is an affix that was meant to stack and deal damage progressively more. This is where Frozen should not be doing (but if the damage is taken off, than it's not as big of an issue). Hope that's more clear and constructive.

P.S. Literally had to go back and fix several grammar and spelling mistakes... It's late. Have mercy Grammar !@#$s. (Gets shot by Theyire Gun).
09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
You guys have this notion that Frozen should be equally deadly as every other affix out there. By roughly the same logic, I should complain that Plagued doesn't do enough damage.


Not equal logic. Plagued is persistent and will stay up for the duration of a fight. Arcane Enchanted and Frozen Pulse, for example, aren't. So assuming they work correctly and aren't being spammed like machine guns, you should always have room within range of an elite combat zone to find safety from those affixes. Thus if you get hit, it's on you.

Like mentioned earlier:

Frozen starts under your character (unlike Arcane enchanted and Frozen Pulse), has no tell (unlike...) comes with a built in hard-CC compenent (unlike...) thus equal logic should dictate Arcane Enchanted and Frozen Pulse should hit harder than Frozen.

Arcane Enchanted, like Frozen, is equally bugged however. Should not have 15+ beams in tight corridors because that defeats the purpose of the skill as a high damage, avoidable, area denial affix and turns it into a PERSISTENT affix like Plagued, which gains its persistence at the expense of its damage.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
My assertion is that Frozen is fine as is, it's okay to have differences.


Differences that make categorically make sense.

What should hit harder? An affix you're guaranteed to be hit by, or an affix you can dodge?

What should hit harder? An affix that comes with a tell, letting you know where it's going to land, or an affix that instantly hits you?

What should hit harder? An affix that comes with a built in CC component, or an affix whose soul job is damage?

Get it? Frozen hitting harder isn't the problem. Frozen hitting harder and doing literally everything better than every other affix in the game, is the problem. Why have other affixes? Why not just give every elite Frozen for maximum difficulty?

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
If you're getting to the point that something like Frozen is one-shotting you, perhaps you're a bit outside the range of rifts you should be running.


Statement doesn't make sense when the leader boards don't care what affixes the elites have in the rift you beat. The response to your claim by any serious player will just be "I fished around it". That there is a clunky workaround doesn't make Frozen any less overtuned.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
As a discussion point, what role is it that you guys want Frozen to play in the game (or for that matter, what roles should all the affixes play)?


The role it used to play might be nice. For starters:

If it's going to cover the whole ground anywhere within the vicinity of elites like it does now for the duration of an elite fight, it should do damage comparable to plagued.

If it's going to hit you without warning from elites behind a door, it should do less damage than frozen pulse.

It it's going to have an unavoidable CC component due to its persistence, the explosion should do about as much damage as jailer.

09/15/2015 10:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
What is it that makes Frozen a fun (or not fun) affix? Those will be far more valuable feedback and will give other members of the community an opportunity to share their insight. I don't think tweaking the individual numbers here will fix the core issue that players are complaining about. There's clearly a disconnect between what Frozen is, and what players believe it should be.


I laid it out here like I laid it out several pages ago. Succinctly: The problem with Frozen is that it does the job of every affix better than every other affix. If Frozen were the only affix in the game, the other affixes wouldn't even register on our radar.
the build up dmg they do before exploding is way out of control in higher GRs.
09/15/2015 04:41 AMPosted by Sethanor
for most classes, the cc is not the problem (zerker, akarat, epi, etc say hi).its the dmg while its building up that is the pain here ... literally :)(same goes for jailer & vortex alltho those dont hurt as much, cause they cant stack)


I think OP meant that the frequency of which frozen is cast is out of control, not the damage it does...

What should hit harder? An affix that comes with a tell, letting you know where it's going to land, or an affix that instantly hits you?What should hit harder? An affix that comes with a built in CC component, or an affix whose soul job is damage?


Wel logically an 1 hit explosion (with or without CC) should hit harder than let's say arcane sentry or plagued which last longer. It's stupid to say those affixes should do the same amount of damage.

If frozen was meant to be CC only, then it wouldnt have an explosion and be more like the webs that slows your movement.

The frequency which elites can cast their affixes is a true discussion point.
ice climber boots dawg
09/16/2015 05:19 AMPosted by Blitz81
Wel logically an 1 hit explosion (with or without CC) should hit harder than let's say arcane sentry or plagued which last longer.


Depends. Are the explosions going off constantly covering roughly the same local area as plagued? Or are they covering a smaller area with lots of holes to avoid the radius? One should do plagued/jailer level of damage because it's the same type of affix, one should do Arcane Sentry / Orbiter level of damage because that's the type of affix it is.

09/16/2015 05:19 AMPosted by Blitz81
The frequency which elites can cast their affixes is a true discussion point.


Exactly, and I brought that up numerous times. If they're going to cast it as often as Plagued, it should do the damage of plagued, else it just replaces plagued in every conceivable way.
09/16/2015 08:01 AMPosted by scorpionx1
ice climber boots dawg
Read the thread, dawg...or should I say, noob...? lol
09/16/2015 05:19 AMPosted by Blitz81
I think OP meant that the frequency of which frozen is cast is out of control, not the damage it does...
Right and wrong. The spamming is out of control, but the damage done by the "apron," the growing circle, the feature that was originally introduced as a perception aid to players to judge the radius of the explosion, and avoid it, and was just that and had no other effect, is so far out of line and excessive compared to other similar ground-effect AOE affixes, that it is also out of control.

PS: no one really cares about the damage the actual Frozen explosion does, or the freeze effect thereafter; that seems fine.
09/16/2015 10:41 AMPosted by OldPro
Read the thread, dawg...or should I say, noob...? lol


I think the "dawg" was ironic sarcasm painting the people who WOULD suggest that as a fix are illiterate buffoons.

I could always be wrong, though I try to have some optimism for humanity. Most days I just crank Aenema by Tool full blast.
09/16/2015 08:01 AMPosted by scorpionx1
ice climber boots dawg


If I had a cent for every time someone recommended ice climbers to deal with frozen, I would be able to retire at 20 and live on a private island. This is the forth or fifth time I've said this is this thread:

The issue of the affix is the spammability and the fact that the DoT does lethally high amounts of damage, and can stack in the same spot. It is unavoidable and on certain maps utterly uncounterable. ICE CLIMBERS WILL LITERALLY DO NOTHING, except maybe give you a false sense of security because you think "well, now I can stand in the explosion without consequence....dang it still one shots me, never mind."

Reading comprehension; it's a thing. If someone else recommends ice climbers I might get an aneurism.
09/16/2015 10:47 AMPosted by MeWhenum
Reading comprehension; it's a thing. If someone else recommends ice climbers I might get an aneurism.


And that's exactly why people are starting to recommend iceclimbers.

If Arthas's mount is called Invincible, how come I can see it?

Same concept.
09/16/2015 10:49 AMPosted by Logos
09/16/2015 10:47 AMPosted by MeWhenum
Reading comprehension; it's a thing. If someone else recommends ice climbers I might get an aneurism.


And that's exactly why people are starting to recommend iceclimbers.

If Arthas's mount is called Invincible, how come I can see it?

Same concept.


It's driving me nuts lol. This thread is 5% people actually discussing the issue logically and 95% people telling everyone else to stop whining, or paragon 150 people telling us "get gud and use ice climbers" (as if there were even a spot in any competitive build for them...)
09/16/2015 10:45 AMPosted by Logos
09/16/2015 10:41 AMPosted by OldPro
Read the thread, dawg...or should I say, noob...? lol


I think the "dawg" was ironic sarcasm painting the people who WOULD suggest that as a fix are illiterate buffoons.

I could always be wrong, though I try to have some optimism for humanity. Most days I just crank Aenema by Tool full blast.


Based on his post count and para level, I am pretty sure he was being serious.
besides even if ice climbers fixed the issue it still wouldnt be viable because theyre forcing us to play with 6 piece sets. wasting a item slot or cube slot on that would be foolish.
09/07/2015 12:47 PMPosted by OldPro
In all the stupid corridor/cave maps for Rifts and GRifts, Frozen is ridiculous.

Elites now spam it like it's the only skill they have, and they lay it out such that even when I Vault 105 yards (3 consecutive Vaults), I still can't get out of the way before it explodes and freezes me.

So they patch Jailer, and totally bugger every other affix, especially Frozen.

Why not just modify the rule set that governs the behavior of all Elites and their affixes?

Makes too much sense to do that? Not complicated enough a solution? Wouldn't have a high enough chance of failure, thus guaranteeing future work in fixing it?

What's the reasoning behind Diablo III devs doing what they do?

Oh, look, somebody else complaining that the game is too hard.

Just play on Normal difficulty if you can't handle the more difficult situations.
09/16/2015 01:31 PMPosted by MountainMan
09/07/2015 12:47 PMPosted by OldPro
In all the stupid corridor/cave maps for Rifts and GRifts, Frozen is ridiculous.

Elites now spam it like it's the only skill they have, and they lay it out such that even when I Vault 105 yards (3 consecutive Vaults), I still can't get out of the way before it explodes and freezes me.

So they patch Jailer, and totally bugger every other affix, especially Frozen.

Why not just modify the rule set that governs the behavior of all Elites and their affixes?

Makes too much sense to do that? Not complicated enough a solution? Wouldn't have a high enough chance of failure, thus guaranteeing future work in fixing it?

What's the reasoning behind Diablo III devs doing what they do?

Oh, look, somebody else complaining that the game is too hard.

Just play on Normal difficulty if you can't handle the more difficult situations.


For real? Why did you bother posting this? And how can you possibly understand anything in this thread when you are paragon 170?

Why does every forum junkie with like 5 hours played think it's cool to come on the forums and troll or otherwise derail threads that they honestly have no business commenting on?

I've never had a sip of alcohol in my life, so the equivalent of what you're doing would be for me to go into an Alcoholics Anonymous group and tell them that they should just man up and stop drinking, FFS, because it's so easy to drop an addiction that I've never experienced.
09/16/2015 01:48 PMPosted by MeWhenum
For real? Why did you bother posting this? And how can you possibly understand anything in this thread when you are paragon 170?

Oh, look, it's somebody else using the "My character can beat up your character" argument.

Seriously, man the game is supposed to be challenging at higher levels. If you're running into mobs that you're unable to handle then that's your clue that you're playing above your level and should probably drop the difficulty down a notch or two. I like that certain affixes and combiations make me sweat and that I have to fight to keep my character alive. I'd hate to see Diablo 3 nerfed down to a "click to win" game.
09/16/2015 01:06 PMPosted by MeWhenum
Based on his post count and para level, I am pretty sure he was being serious.


/shrug

What can you do?

Guess I'ma crank up some Tool.

09/16/2015 01:31 PMPosted by MountainMan
Oh, look, somebody else complaining that the game is too hard.


Oh look, someone else that doesn't understand that D3 is two different games.

09/16/2015 01:31 PMPosted by MountainMan
Just play on Normal difficulty if you can't handle the more difficult situations.


Or you can play GR 60+, ie. REAL Diablo 3 and understand what's being discussed.

09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
If you're running into mobs that you're unable to handle then that's your clue that you're playing above your level and should probably drop the difficulty down a notch or two.


Oh look, someone who doesn't understand how leaderboards work.

09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
I like that certain affixes and combiations make me sweat and that I have to fight to keep my character alive.


Oh look, someone who doesn't understand how instant-fatal-unavoidable damage works at higher levels of the game he doesn't play.

09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
I'd hate to see Diablo 3 nerfed down to a "click to win" game.


Even if it were, you'd still lose. /drops mic
09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
09/16/2015 01:48 PMPosted by MeWhenum
For real? Why did you bother posting this? And how can you possibly understand anything in this thread when you are paragon 170?

Oh, look, it's somebody else using the "My character can beat up your character" argument.

Seriously, man the game is supposed to be challenging at higher levels. If you're running into mobs that you're unable to handle then that's your clue that you're playing above your level and should probably drop the difficulty down a notch or two. I like that certain affixes and combiations make me sweat and that I have to fight to keep my character alive. I'd hate to see Diablo 3 nerfed down to a "click to win" game.


Nowhere did I reference my own characters, but nice try.

Since you've never been outside probably t4, I'm just wondering how you can possibly make a comment on what happens in high rift levels? As in, 60+? Where the damage taken from enemies is quite literally 100+ times as severe as t4? And why did you decide that even though you will probably never see these levels, that you are an expert on what should or should not be happening?

Challenging, yes. Fair, not at all. The point of this thread is that frozen is an extreme outlier to the point where finishing the rift or not is determined by whether or not you encounter frozen. That's broken. And if you suggest talisman of aranoch, then I would point out that being forced to use an item because of one particular affix speaks volumes about the balance of said affix.

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