FROZEN is out of control

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09/16/2015 05:19 AMPosted by Blitz81

If frozen was meant to be CC only, then it wouldnt have an explosion and be more like the webs that slows your movement.

[/quote]

I would just like to point out that Frozen was originally meant as only a CC. It was much later they decided to add damage to Frozen and Jailer. The spammable nature of them at that time was fine because it was meant to hold you in place for other damage sources. The issue is that they have adjusted Jailer now to spam less and deal less damage but did not also adjust Frozen. So it still gets the spammable benefit of when it was a CC only PLUS the high damage of damage only affixes.

If they basically did the same thing they did with Jailer and also waller that they did with this patch, it would balance frozen much better. 50% less damage, increase the cooldown between monsters in the same pack casting it, and prevent monsters from summoning it with 3+ yards of another frozen.

They could also increase the cooldown and prevent the summoning distance on Arcane sentry. That would help bring it back to its intended purpose of a laser grid you can dodge rather than a ground affix that covers the floor.
09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
09/16/2015 01:48 PMPosted by MeWhenum
For real? Why did you bother posting this? And how can you possibly understand anything in this thread when you are paragon 170?

Oh, look, it's somebody else using the "My character can beat up your character" argument.

Seriously, man the game is supposed to be challenging at higher levels. If you're running into mobs that you're unable to handle then that's your clue that you're playing above your level and should probably drop the difficulty down a notch or two. I like that certain affixes and combiations make me sweat and that I have to fight to keep my character alive. I'd hate to see Diablo 3 nerfed down to a "click to win" game.


Basically this. He has the right idea.

09/16/2015 01:54 PMPosted by MountainMan
I like that certain affixes and combiations make me sweat and that I have to fight to keep my character alive.


Oh look, someone who doesn't understand how instant-fatal-unavoidable damage works at higher levels of the game he doesn't play.


If the damage you're taking is instant, fatal, and unavoidable, then stop playing at that difficulty or ramp up your toughness some. It's one thing when your argument is "It's not fun because they repeatedly cast it and I spend all my time dodging.". But then here you are claiming that the real problem is that you instantly die on the first one from a single tick which has nothing to do with frequency.

I'll give you a hint. You have no idea how to build a character. I'd even venture to say that you've never actually even cleared up to the point of greater rifts that you speak of. The profile you're posting from sure as hell has no chance. I'd like to actually hear these arguments from players that have an idea of what they're talking about. Players that aren't dumb enough to try 60-70+ with 15m toughness and complain about instant death.

On topic though, willing to concede they cast them a bit too often. There's definitely a point where you're spending more time running around than you are fighting.
Basically this. He has the right idea.


He has no idea, but at least he exposed your ignorance too, so there's that.

09/16/2015 04:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
If the damage you're taking is instant, fatal, and unavoidable, then stop
playing at that difficulty or ramp up your toughness some.


Sure don't take my word for it. Let's watch and learn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16NWcKivNAc

Seriously, how hard is it to hit up youtube before looking stupid? You would think people might try a stopgap and say, "Huh, thread full of people, some of which have lv 70 gems saying something. Nah, clearly I know more because I can do GR 25."

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MeWhenum-1465/hero/57709280

Mewhenum, just ONE PAGE BACK. Dismissing mr. "mountain man" for the EXACT SAME reasons I am. You couldn't even be bothered to look. Would have taken 10 seconds dude. 10. Seconds.

09/16/2015 04:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
I'll give you a hint. You have no idea how to build a character.


I'll give you a hint. Not all people that play this game, play it on PC.

09/16/2015 04:05 PMPosted by Deathshiver
I'd like to actually hear these arguments from players that have an idea of what they're talking about.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MeWhenum-1465/hero/57709280

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MeWhenum-1465/hero/57709280

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MeWhenum-1465/hero/57709280

There's 3. I'm optimistic to think you'd click on the link, but seeing as how you couldn't even be arsed to look one page back, might be too much effort. /shrug
The issue is frozen. The issue is not my toughness. My DH has over 50 million toughness with wraps of clarity active, and I'm not even using esoteric or a defensive gem. The issue is not being beaten. That happens 90% of the time when pushing your limit. The issue is that frozen is so much stronger than every other affix save reflect and maybe thunderstorm that if I don't get frozen, I easily pass the rift, where if I do, I fail unavoidably. I have sufficiently prepared for 60+. Inspect my characters if you want, I have at least 4 that are 60+ capable. I am on the demon hunter AND witch doctor top 250. I can take 3+ jails and 3+ thunderstorm hits in gr60, yet frozen instagibs me, and is cast at such a rate that my defensive skills are meaningless against it. And no, my frost resist is not way lower than my other resists or something.

If the game is well balanced, then I should fail because I am overwhelmed by a combination of lack of DPS, survivability, and my ability to kite/maneuver.

Right now, 90% of my failures are due to frozen. I am not a random QQer who has no business in 60+. This is an actual problem and I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to establish some kind of credentials because it's easy to dismiss someone's opinion if they haven't experienced the thing in question.
Haha, so much argument. Let's get back on track and talk some more productive things?

Don't need to justify to those who make crass comments. When they get there, they'll understand through experience.

Meanwhile, if we give in to their silly remarks, we diverge from the real intent of this thread:

That is discuss the imbalance of frozen and how we may want to change it for the better.

End of rant haha.
09/16/2015 05:55 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
Haha, so much argument. Let's get back on track and talk some more productive things?

Don't need to justify to those who make crass comments. When they get there, they'll understand through experience.

Meanwhile, if we give in to their silly remarks, we diverge from the real intent of this thread:

That is discuss the imbalance of frozen and how we may want to change it for the better.

End of rant haha.


True. I'm only so easily provoked because of the sheer number of troll/wrong/unconstructive posts in this thread.

I think that, like others have said, if they simply must leave frozen doing damage, it should be reduced, and circles should not be able to stack damage in the same spot.
09/16/2015 10:45 AMPosted by Logos
Most days I just crank Aenema by Tool full blast.
You seen Meytal Cohen?

http://meytalcohen.com/v/aenema-1/
09/16/2015 01:31 PMPosted by MountainMan
Oh, look, somebody else complaining that the game is too hard.

Just play on Normal difficulty if you can't handle the more difficult situations.

Ummm, here...let me show you the real MountainMan:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MountainMan-1374/hero/375811

My esteemed clan leader.
09/16/2015 03:54 PMPosted by Artophwar
The issue is that they have adjusted Jailer now to spam less and deal less damage but did not also adjust Frozen. So it still gets the spammable benefit of when it was a CC only PLUS the high damage of damage only affixes.
Prior to Loot 2.0, the patch that saw Jailer and Frozen deal that damage, those affixes didn't get spammed nearly as often, nor did any other.

Only after Loot 2.0 did the Elites lose their damn minds, and with 2.3, it's worse than ever.

I reprinted in this thread a pretty good discussion I had posted of pre-2.3 Elite behavior over a year ago

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/18706416658?page=9#180
Frozen is Fine.....the Devs made all monster abilities able to be countered ...like its all about Skill and Dodging what these mobs throw at you. No such thing as Time of Death coding because skill > you will die anyway coding because death constantly = Fun. Devs know what they are doing just get more skill and Frozen wont be a problem. Kappa Kappa Kappa Kappa Kappa
09/16/2015 07:43 PMPosted by OldPro
Only after Loot 2.0 did the Elites lose their damn minds, and with 2.3, it's worse than ever.


It's just my theory, but I think as we progress higher in GR. Aspects other than Health and Damage scale. Perhaps the attack rate (cast rate) also increase leading to our observation of the frequency of Frozen being cast.

09/16/2015 06:48 PMPosted by MeWhenum
True. I'm only so easily provoked because of the sheer number of troll/wrong/unconstructive posts in this thread.


I feel ya... uh not in that way... hm unless you like it? Haha, jokes.
09/16/2015 08:46 PMPosted by Blender
Devs know what they are doing just get more skill and Frozen wont be a problem.


I can only agree to honing your skill can help remedy the situation. By that I mean, if you had near perfect reflexes, you would be able to notice where and when each Frozen is cast, thus dodge them by moving accordingly. This feat would be quite difficult in the current play setting. I don't know about you but my eyes can't keep up with it all.

So you are right but I think the way you conveyed that is going to set a fire storm haha.
It's just my theory, but I think as we progress higher in GR. Aspects other than Health and Damage scale. Perhaps the attack rate (cast rate) also increase leading to our observation of the frequency of Frozen being cast.
My recent experience says not.

I like to level up characters just for fun. In the last 3 years, on 4 accounts, I probably have over 2000 hours just into leveling up and deleting DH, Wiz, and the occasional other classes, except Crusader. Played that turd only once.

But recently, I leveled up a Wiz, and I'm doing a Barb right now (Seasonal mules), and everything was fine up until the point at which the Elites got their fourth affix. I think that happens somewhere around level 60-62. But at that point, on both characters, I've noticed the exact same condition with Frozen

And not being a Barbarian player, since I don't really enjoy melee classes that much, I can tell you that a hundred yards of Frozen in every direction is no fun for a guy that moves about as fast as a Mech Warrior.

Fortunately, at this low level, playing on Hard, with a Rank 34 Gizzard equipped, I can pretty much ignore that crap, but for the guys that do GR 60+, they would need a Rank 340 Gizzard...lol
09/16/2015 08:54 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
09/16/2015 08:46 PMPosted by Blender
Devs know what they are doing just get more skill and Frozen wont be a problem.


I can only agree to honing your skill can help remedy the situation.
I think he forgot the <sarcasm></sarcasm> tag. If not sarcasm, his position is quite bemusing.
guess yu didnt see the kappa kappa kappa
So, full disclosure, I'm a Hammerdin Crusader that doesn't have a full kit of optimal gear yet. I've pushed and completed a 45 because I'm silly, but I'm at least observant about damage levels.

Yes, Frozen affix does a disproportionate amount of damage rapidly once the AoE starts ticking. Hammerdin is probably unusual compared to most characters and most sets in that I have three sources of active toughness boosters that let me spike my survivability hard, and all three of those also counter other CC sources that could pin me in to get nailed by the full thing. As such at this time as my sheet toughness grows I don't think I'd personally need a Talisman of Aranoch.

On the matter of if the Talisman of Aranoch represents an actual massive DPS down as has been alleged, for a majority of builds at least as the worn amulet this does not seem to be the case. You can get Element% + Critical Chance% + Critical Damage% just like with Hellfire Amulet, and as long as you don't flat-out need a fifth passive but need help surviving the Talisman would help with this. I'm sure some builds need that fifth passive though so this doesn't help everybody. Jewelry Kanai's slot frequently is needed for other things too.

I can't really say if Frozen actually, "needs addressing," as many are saying in here. My main gripe is that the AoE damage starts ticking a bit too quickly for characters that can't instantly pull themselves from the battlefield on demand to get out of the way sometimes like I can with a Falling Sword, which is available 99% of the time.
09/16/2015 10:06 PMPosted by Guggerbunk
So, full disclosure, I'm a Hammerdin Crusader that doesn't have a full kit of optimal gear yet. I've pushed and completed a 45 because I'm silly, but I'm at least observant about damage levels.


I also have a seasonal Crusader. Quite the fun build, yours obviously need some tweak even with the gears on your profile currently. And I absolutely agree, with Falling Sword reducing 50% incoming damage, Iron Skin reducing a further 50% damage, and wearing String of Ear for general melee damage reduction, on top of the toughness on my character. I can confirm this same issue. I can stand in some beams of Arcane but Frozen (half the time) worries me, so I have a tendency to cast Falling Sword to jump out.

09/16/2015 10:06 PMPosted by Guggerbunk
You can get Element% + Critical Chance% + Critical Damage% just like with Hellfire Amulet, and as long as you don't flat-out need a fifth passive but need help surviving the Talisman would help with this.


You could use it, and should use it, especially if you haven't gotten the right Hellfire Amulet. That said, as you progress further with your Crusader, you'll eventually end up with one with say Holy Cause, Indestructible, Finery, etc. You get the point, otherwise proceeding into GR60+ just might become quite difficult.

09/16/2015 10:06 PMPosted by Guggerbunk
I can't really say if Frozen actually, "needs addressing," as many are saying in here. My main gripe is that the AoE damage starts ticking a bit too quickly for characters that can't instantly pull themselves from the battlefield on demand to get out of the way sometimes like I can with a Falling Sword, which is available 99% of the time.


I think you proved the exact opposite. For a Crusader, you can generally Falling Sword out of a Frozen. And if other classes aren't equipped with the same kind of counter ability, then wouldn't you say it "needs addressing". Furthermore, even when you can jump out, if Akarat is not active, the multi-cast issue gets you frozen solid. It's just another issue I think requires attention.
Yep just faced Frozen, Arcane, Fast, Horde.. with all the little minions carrying around arcane. Good thing I didn't want to clear this 65. I don't think raves even have this many bright shiny death beams. So glad you people open your damned mouths before experiencing anything higher than 40. I am a Barb sitting around 75m toughness before Unity and Call of the Ancients sets in. I highly recommend you attempt these higher rifts before claiming everything is working perfectly fine.

This game has been built on a very steep and unbalanced power creep which causes higher grifts to become more of a problem with some affixes. Every season we might see a different affix become a problem but that's because every season we're going to see higher and higher numbers. Frozen mobs often are desync'd in their cooldowns which cause the nonstop casting of frozen making it impossible to fight against. Damage on Arcane scales so highly even sitting with 200m toughness and 3k arcane resist means nothing to it past 55 grift. I shouldn't have to worry about getting 1 tick killed by arcane when there are 5-8 mobs with it.
09/16/2015 07:33 PMPosted by OldPro
You seen Meytal Cohen?


No, but I'm glad I now have. I love how she's smiling and relaxed on the drums. I'm not quite there yet. Always tense and nervous.

Also I need a second bass pedal, just so I can play songs like that easier. As far as drum covers go, I really like'd the re-imagining of "Weightless" by Animals as Leader's new drummer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmwqbJ7LpI

Edit: I'm even more impressed by her Laid to Rest cover. That cymbal work!
I was calling foul since before the patch, frozen was and still is as bad as if not worst than jailer.

It can be summon under your feet without warning and does damage IMMEDIATELY! at higher level it turns into an instant kill. It is practically an unavoidable damage.

Mobs that can use frozen seems to be able to use it without a cooldown, even before 2.3.

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