Killing a yellow should reward greater progression.

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09/27/2015 10:39 PMPosted by Taurea
09/24/2015 10:01 AMPosted by MeWhenum
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This is an interesting idea, but it would lead to a new strategy; "2+ elite packs right at the door? No? Quit."

Elite packs late in the rift would still be insta-skip, while very early elite packs would be almost required to finish the rift in time. Solves one problem (kinda) and creates another.


Mmm.. damn you for being right. I get what you're saying, but it seems like with every possible fix, another problem occours.
All elites at the end of a rift are allready an instant-skip, what does it matter if they become ´just a Little bit more of an insta-skip?
Most rifts you don't have to walk very far to get your first packs of blues/yellows. Everything about rifts is already all about fishing, so what if packs close to the door is just a win too, that you have to hope for?

This topic was about all blues/yellows being skipped. At least this way, you get to kill a few..


This could maybe work. Only issue is that blues >>> yellows in efficiency, so you'd still probably skip all yellows, and hope for a couple blues at the door, unless yellows gave a HUGE progress boost.
09/28/2015 04:46 AMPosted by donkiam
but then anarch and exarch friends should give more xp too


Given how much of a pain these are, you should just be given the auto-you-win-diablo achievement and a third of a completion bar after chasing all these zooming bastards around ;D
I hate to say it but we're talking meta game at this point. If you kill yellows in 99% of rifts and only skip them in the top 1%, I.E. the maximum progression you or your group can complete, then the game is working as intended. A fundamental part of all competitive gaming is knowing the mechanics, and learning how to play around them effectively. In these harder rifts you might not always be able to achieve a competitive score and it might slow you down, but that's the point really.
What about also adding 1 progress globe per minion?
09/28/2015 09:01 AMPosted by nismojoe
What about also adding 1 progress globe per minion?


They just need to balance HP and progress better. If an elite has 15x the health of an equivalent normal monster, then it should at MINIMUM give 15x progress of the normal monster. I say minimum because the elite also has affixes. The more dangerous or difficult the mob the more it should move your progress bar. That way rifts full of winged assassins or other act 5 mobs arent insta quit. The wasps are also particularly unbalanced, highly dangerous but give no progress.
Agree 1000% OP. At higher grifts, killing yellows is simply a waste of time. You move past them or you're guaranteed a loss. Make them worth taking the time to kill and the game will be much better for it.
09/28/2015 09:20 AMPosted by Gbrav13
They just need to balance HP and progress better.

exactly. in high grifts, nobody kills mallet lords either. not because they don't give enough progress, but because they simply have too much HP. same with yellows. one yellow should have just a little more hp than one blue; blues are in a good spot imo.
I agree completely that the current meta of higher grifts is undesirable.

As an alternative to more xp, killing an elite could set the timer back by a bit. This may lead to slightly different gameplay. I say may, because conceptually, time=xp.

This time-adjustment approach also opens up things like freeze-time pylons where the timer doesn't move for 30 seconds.
09/28/2015 01:11 PMPosted by Derplord
also opens up things like freeze-time pylons where the timer doesn't move for 30 seconds.


That has potential!
09/26/2015 10:40 PMPosted by Spiral
The function to count the given progress could be something as easy as this:
1. Progression given by a monster scales linearly by its health. If you kill a mob A that has twice as much health than a mob B, you are given twice as much progression when compared to the mob B.
2. The damage or danger is a multiplier. All monsters are given a multiplier according to the amount of damage they do. If a monster is slow and weak it has a multiplier as low as 0.1 whereas Mallet Lords could have a multiplier of 2.


This is wrong, and not seeing the problem.

AoE is the culprit here, no doubt about it. Two mobs with 50hp worth 50 points will always be better then 1 mob with 100hp worth 100 points. Except a more practical scenario would be 20 mobs with low hp vs 1 high hp mob. You're going to be doing over 20times DPS vs the pack.

AoE isn't the issue being spoken here.

But since you mentioned it I don't see AoE as the problem here. It simply can't be. True, you are correct that AoE damage currently is much more effective than single target damage, because it's always better killing 20 monsters at the same time than one at a time since by killing multiple monsters at the same time you're effectively multiplying your damage by the amount of mobs. You want high AoE damage because you want high density in your rifts. High density is a must, because it equals to good progression. Density will always mean more progression compared to a rift that has very few, yet tough mobs. This is simple math and has always been so and the same would also apply to any viable single target builds. That, however, does not make my suggestion wrong.

I'm all in for build diversity and as such would love to see high damage single target builds that excel in going through large packs of mobs one monster at a time. I hope the future DH build will be something like that. However, even if they boosted single target damage by 10x allowing you to kill 10 mobs in the same time an AoE build kills them all, you'd still want good density in your map... You'd just rather prefer lots of big mobs contrary to swarms of small and weak mobs.

Even if the rifts were identical, the only difference it would make is you now have two options to deal with the mobs:
1. Lots of AoE damage to gather and kill all the mobs slowly, but at the same time.
2. Insane amount of single target damage to quickly kill them one by one.

In an ideal case the progression per minute in the same kind of rift would remain the same and you as a player get to choose which play-style you prefer. However, in reality that would never happen. E

Even if we boosted single target damage, being it 5x, 10x or 20x, there'd always be a point where AoE becomes better. The line might be drawn at 10 mobs, 15 mobs or 20 mobs at the same time, but at certain point the damage output of AoE will grow stronger. Similarly single target builds would be better and faster in rifts that don't have insanely high density of small mobs, but has a lot of tiny packs of 1-3 big monsters that give good progress. Where AoE builds would skip them, Single target builds will kill them and get very quick progression. Bottom line is, even if we boosted Single Target damage, one will always be better than the other depending of the situation. Therefore AoE vs Single Target Damage is not the problem.

That being said, you're wrong in your example. You say in my above system one would rather want 100x1hp mobs than 1x100hp mobs (much like everyone do now). True if the progression was counted solely based on their health. However, you forgot to take into account the "Damage/Danger multiplier". Naturally the 100 1hp mobs that die to one hit would give less progression than the 100 hp mob since the danger multiplier of such weak monsters are a lot lower compared to a tough heavy hitting mob. These two factors together would hopefully bring it closer to balance. You'd get to choose your best approach: You can stop for a moment to kill one tough and hard mob to gain X progression or you can rush through dozens of little mobs to get the same progression. If done perfectly, in my system you'd do both without the need of skipping any, because your progression per minute remains the same since it no longer matters which monsters you kill.

Although, again, in a perfect world we'd have a team that has one guy with high AoE and one with great single target damage. Where the AoE guy goes through the packs of weak monsters and minions, the single target guy focuses on the big mobs and Rares.
I don't get what the big deal is. Is this more of a single player issue?

Because whenever I join a good 4 player game, the monk just basically pulls in everything (before it was the WD / crusader pulling), usually when there's an elite or 2 we'll stop to kill the giant pack of stuff he has pulled including the elite. So as not to risk triggering too many elites at once. Or if the pack is so big that trying to pull in more simply isn't viable, whether there is an elite in the pack or not. We actually end up skipping some of the trash really, the stuff that doesn't get pulled for whatever reason.

Occasionally we'll skip a yellow - either A - because it has a bunch of health left and no monsters around. Killing a single monster is never a good idea, unless it is a yellow with a very small amount of health left. Or B - it is proving to be too difficult for the party. In which case we skip everything that was pulled along with the elite, as we have no choice. Or C - we're so close to triggering rift guardian that it makes sense to skip.

Often though if there is just a few monsters left, of any kind be it elite or not, the monk will just pull again onto the next big pack and we'll finish em off there.

And the only time we skip huge packs of monsters if danger is not an issue, is when they are monsters that cannot be pulled (because of the loss of the strongarm bonus, and also because the monsters that cannot be pulled have a ton of health).

Granted we're not #1 but it's still 60's grifts. Pretty much the limit for our gear and paragon.
DeadDragon, it only becomes a problem on a bit higher G-rifts.

The problem isn't even about skipping them. When you go high enough, you simply must do so at least if you plan to have a good time not to mention a record breaking time.

There's no problem in that sense...

... the real problem is that the whole idea of skipping elites is stupid. Killing elites is fun, but when it's not worth it, you don't do that. Is that really how the game is intended to be played? The answer to that question I hope is NO! I'd love to stay and kill the blue and yellow packs even on the record breaking rifts, but sadly it simply isn't worth the time or the risk of dying. I can live with taking a risk of dying (I play on HC), but it simply is a waste of time so we just jump over them.

If they gave linear progression according to their increased health with a multiplier given by their increased difficulty, then it'd be worth killing even if it takes you a longer time. Then it'd be worth keeping the packs after you, slowly killing them as you push through the rifts getting more and more packs... and with them more risk of dying, with an increased chance of greater reward in terms of awesome progression.

That's how at least I'd like to see it. With great risk should become great reward.
The issue really is the huge gap between yellow health and everything else's health (which wouldn't be a problem, if the progression was correct). The time gap between killing trash and killing a yellow gets hugely inflated, too, since the difference scales exponentially too. It will be very tough for them to balance yellows at very high GR levels, unless they change the base health they have so the gap between yellows and trash doesn't grow so big so quickly.
I skip yellows and Elites due to this, somebody really dropped the ball thinking something with 30x more health and taking so much longer to kill should reward less progress than a mob of whites.

If I stop to kill the Elites I lose almost half the grift time, if I kill whites only I can finish with a few minutes remaining, it's utter madness considering the 2.3 patch notes stated they had fixed this or at least improved it!
09/22/2015 02:56 PMPosted by Apathy
It is a BAD design if you're suppose to skip most of them in high tier rifts.


I didn't know that they were not higher experience.... I will now skip them when pushing.
AoE is part of the issue. A 100 hp mob NEEDS to give more progress than 2 50 hp mobs, etc.
10/02/2015 07:26 PMPosted by Nineunbuffed
09/22/2015 02:56 PMPosted by Apathy
It is a BAD design if you're suppose to skip most of them in high tier rifts.


I didn't know that they were not higher experience.... I will now skip them when pushing.


Yeah, you'll find your ceiling is 3-4 GRs higher if you can skip elites. Exception: you're a WD.
09/28/2015 11:57 AMPosted by psySPY
09/28/2015 09:20 AMPosted by Gbrav13
They just need to balance HP and progress better.

exactly. in high grifts, nobody kills mallet lords either. not because they don't give enough progress, but because they simply have too much HP. same with yellows. one yellow should have just a little more hp than one blue; blues are in a good spot imo.


I don't think the HP is the sole factor to making hammer lords not worth while.

- They can't be controlled, aka, you can't bunch them up to AoE.
- They tend not to spawn in large groups conducive to AoE damage, and even if they do, see point 1, and even if they are bunched as tight as they can be, since they are so big you need a very wide AoE to hit them all which most classes do not have.
- You can pull a bunch of crap mobs on top of the hammer lord to AoE, but everything else will die with the hammer lord still at 50% health, then you're stuck with single target damage which is inefficient.
- and of course they can be fatal for melee characters

09/29/2015 06:02 AMPosted by AleisterB
Although, again, in a perfect world we'd have a team that has one guy with high AoE and one with great single target damage. Where the AoE guy goes through the packs of weak monsters and minions, the single target guy focuses on the big mobs and Rares.


I didn't quote the whole post, because it's huge, but it all seems to be focused around the idea that a character is either single target, or AoE, and any balance will settle on one or the other.

If you read my whole post one of the major points was giving all classes (read: sets) single target and AoE options. Then, whether encountering singles, or packs, you can still be efficient.

As someone else pointed out, I think Blizzard is aware of this issue, hence the items that read "x% bonus dmg when you hit less then x targets". But they have not gone far enough IMO.
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