More engaging endgame

General Discussion
A big problem for me with this game is that the endgame is nothing but a simple grind. I know this problem may not be fixed, if it ever is, until the next expansion, but I just wanted to throw this out and see what the community thinks. I was impressed with the boss fights in RoS, especially Malthael because he was no joke when you first came around to say hi. While the rifts are pretty good, they are the only reliable endgame content, which gets boring quickly.

I would like to see an option for a more boss or maybe even puzzle related endgame. It would be nice to have to use your head to get through a level to make it to a boss that has engaging dynamics rather than running down hallways nuking mindlessly. The rifts have bosses that are decent, but still there could be more to it.

What would everyone else like to see? Of course not everyone will be satisfied with changes and not everything can be included, but having some options would be really nice, thanks everyone.
Nothing........its fine exactly how it is. I don't see the end game as a problem, I see the balance of end game and rifts as a problem.
I would definitely be up for more varied end game content. Complex objective based missions, for example, would be cool.
This is a grind game. GR hate it or love it is the end game OP.

Bosses will be quickly forgotten like Ruins of Sescheron unless you make then meaningful like ubers.

I would say top priority is to make this game balanced for all classes before they even think about adding non-combat content.

10/07/2015 09:04 PMPosted by TattleBag
I would definitely be up for more varied end game content. Complex objective based missions, for example, would be cool.


You mean bounties? Because that basically what you described.
10/07/2015 09:04 PMPosted by TattleBag
I would definitely be up for more varied end game content. Complex objective based missions, for example, would be cool.


That is beyond vague. Objective based missions = bounties. So what is "complex" going to add in? A puzzle? Ugh... great, now we're doing puzzles in a hack and slash game. Wat?
@Chaos3115
Agreed. D3's high level gameplay needs some serious attention:

1. Stash space. Believe it or not, this long-standing, oft-requested feature ties into the end-game.
2. Build-countering monsters. Currently, whichever builds deal the most damage are the ones that are most effective. High level content is most successful when it challenges the player more than the player's character.
3. Solid fundamental mechanics.
4. New challenges: DLC, expansions, and more.

The way to address item 1, stash space, is to address itemization. After a while, the game gets boring because none of the loot that drops is useful. It either all gets salvaged, or just gets left on the ground. If every item that dropped had real value of some kind, then that would reinvigorate the item hunt. People love to bring up PoE - and for good reason: Their economy follows this simple rule.

To address item 2, build-countering monsters, different damage types have to be meaningful. Currently, they aren't. Fire damage is the same as holy damage. The only reason to spec one over the other is to fit your favorite skill. Making this a deeper choice would improve high level play.

Item 3, solid fundamental mechanics, takes things a step further. Currently, the only way to progress to the highest difficulties is to sacrifice survivability for damage. This is no good. Instead of having to choose between survivability or damage, we should be choosing equally between which kinds of damage to defend against and which kinds to deal.

There are other kinds of vital dichotomies we should be able to focus on as well. Getting into detail would require a massive post, but the gist of it is that the early game should shield the player from having to make deep decisions about stats, while the end game should open up deeper options for character customization.

Class balance is a big deal, and ultimately, what we should see is that each class is firmly mounted on the same underlying chassis but has different ways of expressing the same concepts. Ex: Melee, ranged, pets, movement, stats, gear, etc. Currently, each class kind of lives in its own little world, which is why they can't currently be balanced against each other in any meaningful way except raw dmg in / dmg out. For a great example of a well-balanced game, check out Armello.

Finally, all of the above pieces form the core mechanics, but the real fun comes when you get to pit your skills as a player -- your familiarity with your build -- against new challenges you've never seen before. DLC and expansions are a start. But on-going longevity is about allowing players to build things within the game world that have meaning to them. Killing monsters just to kill monsters is fine, but having a reason to log in other than just to gib mass quantities would really push Diablo into a higher category of game.

For example, one thing i've advocated for for a long time is the introduction of The Sin War. Basically, as a player, you get to choose which side of the war to fight on, and your actions shape your portion of the overall game world. When other players encounter the consequences of your actions, they can choose to support those consequences or fight against them. Further, the side you fight for (Heavens, Hells, Sanctuary) or align most closely with determines the most common gear you have access to.

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i made a similar sugestion about a boss rush mode, would bring alot of longevity to the game.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16202110230
10/08/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Kallizk
i made a similar sugestion about a boss rush mode, would bring alot of longevity to the game.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16202110230


it's already there as an achievement.

10/08/2015 02:43 AMPosted by Starshadow
2. Build-countering monsters. Currently, whichever builds deal the most damage are the ones that are most effective. High level content is most successful when it challenges the player more than the player's character.


You mean D2 immunities don't you? It was a crap idea btw. If not, give non-vague ideas instead of this.

10/08/2015 02:43 AMPosted by Starshadow
Item 3, solid fundamental mechanics, takes things a step further. Currently, the only way to progress to the highest difficulties is to sacrifice survivability for damage.


It's damage, toughness AND healing by the way. With a 4th - XP gain unofficially in as well. This is already ahead of the D2 meta. Again, just randomly stating a problem without a proper solution.

10/08/2015 02:43 AMPosted by Starshadow
For example, one thing i've advocated for for a long time is the introduction of The Sin War


This idea has been used in several games. Feel free to refer to how they worked out in the long run.

Just because you don't like or don't compete in the time-based GR end-game... doesn't mean there is no end-game. All the ideas see so far are in the realm of "do once and leave" ideas. The only viable end-game scenarios for a game like D3 would be PvP and endless scaling PvE, be it the typical each level = harder suggestions, or time-based like its current implementation.

World PvEvP (Dark Ages) or PvEvE (the sin-war thing the guy above posted) have all been used before, and in almost no scenario did it create the utopia scenario that users expected.
well technically this is a grind fest !!! the end game content never bothered me, to me grinding with the new sets was always a plus be it solo or group play. well i am a glitter bug after all i loove looting !!!!
Blizz doesn't want end game. They want you to keep grinding. They do this by adding new sets and missions. Plus, seasons.

No end game in sight.
this is a grind fest !! there is never an end game in a grind fest. once you have achieved your desired sets and your OPness for one season rinse and repeat for the next season. Its what D3 is all about.
Isn't the grind what ARPGs are all about?
10/08/2015 12:28 PMPosted by royalgoddess
this is a grind fest !! there is never an end game in a grind fest. once you have achieved your desired sets and your OPness for one season rinse and repeat for the next season. Its what D3 is all about.

It's what Bliz has turned it into. But it could be so much more. That said, even if the game is a grind fest and nothing else, it's still important to keep the content fresh. Fresh content means new challenges, new areas, things we haven't already seen literally a thousand times.

10/08/2015 12:33 PMPosted by cbwjm
Isn't the grind what ARPGs are all about?

Partially. But story is also part of the equation. Story and atmosphere are a big part of the reason a player will chose D3 vs. PoE vs. Grim Dawn vs. Torchlight vs. D2 (modded) vs. whatever else is out there. Some ppl like cake, others like pie. They're both made with the same ingredients, but are very different confections.
10/08/2015 12:05 PMPosted by Wilson
10/08/2015 02:43 AMPosted by Starshadow
2. Build-countering monsters. Currently, whichever builds deal the most damage are the ones that are most effective. High level content is most successful when it challenges the player more than the player's character.


You mean D2 immunities don't you? It was a crap idea btw. If not, give non-vague ideas instead of this.

10/08/2015 02:43 AMPosted by Starshadow
Item 3, solid fundamental mechanics, takes things a step further. Currently, the only way to progress to the highest difficulties is to sacrifice survivability for damage.

It's damage, toughness AND healing by the way. With a 4th - XP gain unofficially in as well. This is already ahead of the D2 meta. Again, just randomly stating a problem without a proper solution.

No. What i said was "Build-countering monsters". This concept goes beyond JUST resistances vs dmg types (nothing to do with immunities), but i included that concept as an example of one thing that would need to be addressed in that bullet point.

No. Toughness and healing are two components of survivability. By virtue of the game's design, you must give up one to get the other. And yes, i did present a solution. Just because you don't like what i proposed doesn't mean it wasn't there.

The point of my list was not meant to be an exhaustive dissertation on how to "Build A Better Game", but rather to bring up general, intentionally open-ended points that if addressed would make the game quantitatively better.
10/08/2015 12:05 PMPosted by Wilson
The only viable end-game scenarios for a game like D3 would be PvP and endless scaling PvE, be it the typical each level = harder suggestions, or time-based like its current implementation.

No. You're limiting your thinking to what we already have. We've already had several different versions of scaling difficulty promoted as "end game": Monster Power, Difficulty (Norm, NM, Hell, Inferno), Torment levels, and GRs. All of them introduce powercreep without addressing the underlying issue of why people keep complaining and asking for something better: Difficulty is not the same as challenge and variety.

10/08/2015 12:05 PMPosted by Wilson
This idea has been used in several games. Feel free to refer to how they worked out in the long run.

Feel free to name those games specifically, as well as "how they worked out in the long run", instead of "vague" references and hand waving.

10/08/2015 12:05 PMPosted by Wilson
World PvEvP (Dark Ages) or PvEvE (the sin-war thing the guy above posted) have all been used before, and in almost no scenario did it create the utopia scenario that users expected.

No. Nothing like the Sin War has ever existed in the ARPG genre as far as i know. Look at my post history if you want to find it. (I may actually post more about it in depth if you respond in a way that indicates you want to have a constructive conversation, rather than just adversarially picking apart my suggestions like a crow, or if others show any interest.) If your experience has been different though, please, name the games where you've seen something similar.

The forums aren't really a place to get anything done (at least when it comes to threads like this). It's more like a wishing well, into which we each toss our penny's worth of thoughts.


Sin War overview list of features: Four main factions (High Heavens, Burning Hells, Sanctuary, and Unaligned), alignments (angelic vs. demonic), quests*, skills* as rewards, base building*, base raids, open world PvP (with different objective modes, like KotH King of the Hill, LMS Last Man Standing, Hunter vs. Prey, Onslaught, CTF Capture the Flag, and more), open world PvE (Pandemonium), clan vs. clan battles of up to 24 players, endless dungeons, unique items (not legendary, unique), combat-based economy, resource based economy, most items are crafted not found (and what can be crafted depends on the resources and NPCs available to you), unique & rare NPCs, and character development with deep RPG flavor, all in an ARPG package.
(* = faction-specific and general)

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