Whirlwind Re-Design: 2.5 And Beyond

Barbarian
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Introduction And Goals

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In the first phase of the 2.4 PTR, end-game WW builds were broken due to the altered relationship between WW and attack speed. While this was reverted, it's quickly become clear that the WW skill and the Wrath of the Waste set are no longer top-tier builds. In the spirit if achieving some semblance of equilibrium between Barb sets, this thread aims to theorycraft how all things WW could be changed with the following goals in mind:

1. Reduce server lag by diminshing WW's reliance on Dust Devils.

2. Provide elemental diversity in WW builds.

3. Provide weapon and item diversity in WW builds depending on goal.

4. Provide viable build options for all level of play (from speed farming to GR pushes).

5. Remove WW's reliance on the BK swords.

6. Ensure the Waste set remains the end-all, be-all for end-game WW builds.

7. Ensure that Waste-focused WW builds are viable with other Barb builds and sets (Raekor's, MOTE, etc).

For an abbreviated read:

Five Ways to "Fix" WW Builds

1. Let damage scale with attack speed and/or move speed
2. Buff skill damage and AOE
3. Multipliers to skill and skill runes
4. Move leg powers to bracers and belts
5. Build Fury gen into set and Buff BK weapons

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Redesigned Sets, Items, and Skills

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The following is the most up-to date draft of redesigned Waste and BK sets, additional items meant to compliment and diversify WW builds, and an overhaul of the WW skill. Unless otherwise noted, buffs are multiplicative. My reasoning for each item is listed in italics below its corresponding entry.

I encourage my fellow Barbs to chime in and critique my ideas, particularly if my math (which is wonky at best) is off-base.

Wrath of the Wastes -- Version A
This version of the set aligns with what has been revealed for the 2.4.1 PTR patch.

(2) Set:
    * Whirlwind's and Rend's damage scales with attack speed.
    * Whirlwind gains the effect of the Blood Funnel rune.


(4) Set:
    * During Whirlwind and Rend casts you gain 50% damage reduction.
    * Rend gains the effect of the Bloodbath rune and applied Rends deal triple damage.



(6) Set:
    * Whirlwind deals 800% additional damage against bleeding enemies.
    * Critical hits on bleeding enemies cause an explosion of blood dealing 5000% weapon damage to all enemies in a 10 yard radius.


The theme here is that WW and Rend are all about getting into the thick of things, shredding monsters like a human buzz saw, and surviving while bathed in gore.

The 2 pc bonus is intended to fix the problem of having to choose a Physical (Blood Funnel) rune. And since we don't get Dust Devils automatically, players have to make a choice: elemental diversity or more damage through Dust Devils?

The 4 pc bonus insures you don't lose your DR when Rending -- the number one reason people don't like Rend's inclusion in the set. This would be like dropping the DR for leaping. If we should be using Rend, we should be reaping the benefit. The Bloodbath rune and triple damage insures that Rend deals decent damage with one-handers.

The 6 pc bonus will offer some truly meaty damage to WW (against bleeding enemies) and give the players an AOE damage source that is not based on Dust Devils. When a player adds Skull Grasp, Area Damage, attack speed, and Elemental damage into the mix, this will produce a very powerful build that should be able to compete with the other sets.

Wrath of the Wastes -- Version B
This version of the set abandons Rend to focus on what makes WW a unique skill -- mobility, speed, and the risk-reward factor inherent in spinning into mobs.

(2) Set:
    * Increase Fury Generation by 10
    * During Whirlwind you gain 30% increased attack speed and movement speed.

(The bonus to Rend, while an interesting idea, is contrary to the play style of WW -- constant movement and aggression -- and is completely neglected by most Barbs in the build, particularly for top clears and speed farming. By moving the BK set bonus to the Waste set, we solve resource management issues with the skill in question and pave the way for build diversity in terms of weapons. This also elevates the Waste set above IK WW in terms of IAS and its corresponding tick rates and proc coefficient.)

(4) Set:
    * During Whirlwind you gain 60% damage reduction.
    * Whirlwind gains the effect of the Blood Funnel rune.

(Raising the set's inherent damage reduction means less reliance on other rings (Unity) to provide enough mitigation in higher tiers. Adding Blood Funnel here solves the healing problem for the build and paves the way for rune and elemental diversity in the build)

(6) Set:
    * Whirlwind's damage is increased by 800%.
    * You gain 2% increased damage for every second during which you channel Whirlwind. This effect stacks 15 times and lasts two seconds.

(The idea here is that a WW barb is a cyclone of death, shredding enemies in all directions. This damage boost is multiplicative [the secondary stacking bonuses are applied as a percentage of the 800% buffed damage value, not the original skill damage] and is meant to encourage players to remain in the thick of combat, making WW a high risk, high reward build. The damage boost is multiplicative and is applied rune effects such as Dust Devils, though complimentary items discussed below insure that Dust Devils is the not the sole end-game rune. This means the build can be tuned to deal AOE or single-target damage, depending on what is needed. At last, WW can do some single-target damage!)

Wrath of the Wastes -- Version C
This version of the set retains Rend in a way that does not force the skill onto the bar and does not open players to moments of vulnerability.

(2) Set
    * Rend deals 1000% more damage.
    * Rend gains the effect of the Blood Lust rune.

(If we're going to keep Rend, let's make it useful. Blood Lust helps lessen our dependency on Blood Funnel and the extra bleed damage doesn't hurt, even with light one-handers.)

(4) Set:
    * Whirlwind automatically applies Rend on critical hits.
    * While channeling Whirlwind or casting Rend you gain 60% damage reduction.

(This prevents us from having to stop channeling to cast Rend. The added damage reduction is meant to lessen dependence on Unity and other forms of mitigation.)

(6) Set:
    * Whirlwind deals 2500% more damage to bleeding enemies.
    * Bleeds caused by Whirlwind stack up to five times. Enemies who die while bleeding explode, dealing 500% weapon damage to all enemies in a ten yard radios.

(Stacking bleeds works on single targets, and the extra damage vs bleeding enemies means that WW is useful in groups. Any other skills (or items) that bleed mobs would grant the WW Barb the damage bonus.)

Whirlwind

Cost: 10 Fury

Deliver multiple attacks in a 15-yard radius for 400% weapon damage.
While whirlwinding, you move at 100% movement speed.
(Can't find data on the current radius of WW--help? I think it's 10 or 12, so the buff is intended to synergize with AD and runes. The buff to damage is paltry as WW without the Waste set will not be end-game viable. Not included in this tool tip is an increase of the proc coefficient to 0.4)

Dust Devils (Physical)
    Generate harsh tornadoes that deal 120% weapon damage to enemies in their path.

Hurricane (Cold)
    Pull enemies toward you from up to 35 yards away while channeling Whirlwind. Whirlwind's damage turns into Cold.

Blood Funnel (Physical)
    Critical Hits restore 1% of your maximum Life.

Wind Shear (Lightning)
    Gain 1 Fury for every enemy struck. Whirlwind's damage turns into Lightning.
    Since Fury problems are solved by the Waste set, this rune becomes the optimal choice for speed farming).

Volcanic Eruption (Fire)
    Gain 25% movement speed and leave a trail of volcanic ash that deals 120% weapon damage while channeling Whirlwind. Whirlwind's damage turns into Fire.
    (The ash trail does not proc Bloodshed, but might proc AD [haven't run the math on that and wouldn't know where to begin]. The intent here is to offer an AOE elemental alternative to Dust Devils.)


Skull Grasp
Primary
    Attack Speed Increased by 5-7%

Secondary
    Whirlwind's damage now scales with attack speed (75% of total IAS as a multiplier to WW's damage).
    (This is intended to boost WW's damage based on the 2.4 PTR iteration of the skill. It's also intended to be a viable replacement to CoE in the build as it grants IAS and further augments the relationship between WW and IAS. It also would be the ring of choice if using fast one-handers).


Bracers of Vasily
Legendary Bracers
366-421 Armor
Primary
    Attack Speed Increased by 5-7%
    Elemental skills deal 15-20% more damage (single element)

Secondary
    All damage dealt by resource spenders is converted into the following element: (depends on which is rolled: Fire, Cold, Lightning, Physical, Poison, Holy) regardless of selected skill runes.
    (This is intended to provide elemental diversity to all builds across all classes and allow WW players to get away from BK swords as the only viable weapons. The legendary affix will roll as one of the four elements available to a class and that will be the element that all elemental skill damage deals. The additional guaranteed elemental damage primary affix is meant to further bolster elemental damage, but the IAS roll could will factor into Skull Grasp's multiplier.)


Bul-Kathos's Oath

Primary
    Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Physical Elemental Damage Type
    Strength
    Attack Speed Increased by 7-10%

+3 Magic Properties
Whirlwind deals 150-200% increased damage.

Lacuni Prowlers
Legendary Bracers
366-421 Armor
Primary
    Attack Speed Increased by 5.0-7.0%

Secondary
    Whirlwind's damage is increased by 25% of your movement speed.
    (If you're using a slow two-hander, ditching IAS in favor of move speed can be a viable alternative.)


Bul-Kathos's Wedding Band
Primary
    Critical Hit Chance Increased by 4.5-6.0%

Secondary
    Ignore Pain gains the effect of the (randomly rolled) rune.
    (This is intended to help lessen reliance on the Pride of Cassius belt, offering WW Barbs alternatives in the form of Witching Hour, String of Ears, and others.)


Brawler
You deal 35% additional damage to three or fewer enemies.
(This is intended to help WW and other builds solve the single-target damage problem that plagues our class. It also lessens reliance on Stricken in lower GR tiers.)

Butcher (formerly Sword and Board)
Bleed damage caused by items or skills is increased by 5% for every bleeding enemy in 30 yards up to maximum of 25%.
(Let's be honest: Sword and Board is garbage. At the very least, this will offer a DPS buff.)

Juggernautt
Gain 25% movement speed when using a two-handed weapon.
(Meant to help incorporate the use of two-handers into more builds.)

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FAQ

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Q. What happened to the WW skill in the first iteration of the 2.4 PTR?
A. In the first iteration of the 2.4 PTR, the relationship between WW and attack speed was altered. Prior to 2.4, the relationship could best be summed up as this:

Relationship between WW and APS in 2.3
    - WW hits faster (breakpoints) based on IAS
    - Higher breakpoints spawn more DDs (more total damage output since each procs Bloodshed and AD)
    - More frequent WW hits mean more crits, which means more healing from Blood Funnel
    - Higher APS means more Zodiac procs (the faster WW hits, the more you proc Zodiac)
    - More Zodiac procs means perma-IP and perma-Wrath (required for pushing GRs)
    - More frequent WW hits mean better Stricken snapshots (required for pushing GRs)

But during the first iteration of the 2.4 PTR, it was changed to this:

Relationship between WW and APS in 2.4
    - WW doesn't hit faster based on APS -- this eliminates all WW breakpoints
    - Higher APS now eats more Fury and WW and DDs do more damage
    - Since there are no breakpoints, we spawn fewer tornadoes (net DPS loss)
    - Fewer tornadoes means less AOE damage (another net DPS loss)
    - Fewer and slower WW hits means fewer crits
    - Fewer crits means much less healing from Blood Funnel (only heals on crits)
    - Fewer WW hits (ticks) means fewer Zodiac procs
    - Fewer Zodiac procs results in loss of perma-IP and perma-Wrath (can be made up by more CDR rolls on gear, but that also results in net DPS loss as we lose potential Str, AD, CHC, or CHD rolls)
    - Fewer WW hits means lower Stricken snapshot (major DPS loss vs RG compounded with other net DPS losses listed above)


Needless to say, WW Barbs had the end-game rug pulled out from under them in the 2.4 PTR.

What prompted this change? Good question.

I made a thread about the problem here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/19877177602?page=1

Before long, Nevalistis posted the official explanation:

11/12/2015 01:40 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Let's start with clearing some basics up:

The changes made to Whirlwind (and Strafe) were not made because of concerns with balance. The changes to Whirlwind and Strafe were made to improve server performance. Our server logs indicate that Whirlwind was a significant factor in server performance issues experienced by all players (even if there isn’t a Barbarian in your game). The intention is to improve server performance without affecting the power of Whirlwind.


Direct link to full response: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/19877177602?page=4#70

Outcry against the change was strong, and Nevalistis did a good job of touching base with the community and clarifying the issue. Within two weeks, the change was reverted and WW was reverted back to it's 2.3 mechanics. [u][/u]
I would it become true ^^
Awesome ideas. I really hope the developers take this post to heart and make some changes to keep whirlwind alive.

Switching from wastes WW to the Raekor set and using charge makes me not want to play barb anymore.
Whatever they do if they keep Rend and Dust Devils in the build, Lamentation needs to buff Rend more synergistically with Wastes not IK and Skull Grasp needs to buff devils.

My ideas for a quick fix.. knowing we will need about 3-4x more damage to keep up with IK6R4:

- Skull Grasp : Dust Devils now do half damage but hit each target 3 times (1.5x multiplier). Also works better for zodiac procs, and simple tick rate matches Whirlwind.
- Lamentation : Whirlwind automatically applies Rend. Rend can be applied to each enemy twice, either by Whirlwind or by Rend itself. Bloodlust can also apply a separate Rend, which itself can stack twice (making opaque mechanic transparent...)

W2: While channeling whirlwind, gain 20% cooldown reduction and 30% resource cost reduction. Life per fury spent in increased by 43% (mathematically keeping it as is).
W4: If you are dual wielding, Rend's damage is based on combined weapon damage of both of your weapons, does 5x more damage and lasts for 15 seconds.
W6: 3,750% devils.
11/14/2015 09:03 PMPosted by Free
Wind Shear (Lightning)

While channeling whirlwind, gain 20% increased movement speed. Whirlwind's damage turns into Lightning.
Since Fury problems are solved by the Waste set, this rune becomes the optimal choice for speed farming).


20% MS is nothing, the bigger area from your cold variation would work much better in comparison for speedfarming.
should be more like 100% MS. (have u seen how much MS chicken got in ptr? )
Some good ideas in this thread. Here's my pitiful attempt as a Demon Hunter player who took up playing a Wastes Barb this season because why not?

Whirlwind skill

Base skill: increase damage to 400%.

Hurricane: slow pulled enemies by 50% for 2 seconds.

Blood Funnel: increase healing to 3% of maximum life.

Wind Shear: 25% chance on Critical Hit to deal an additional 300% weapon damage as Lightning to all enemies within 15 yards.

Volcanic Eruption: Leave a magma trail in your wake that deals 200% weapon damage per second for 3 seconds as Fire.

Guessing on numbers with skill redesigns.

Wastes Set:

(2) Set:

The cooldown of Ignore Pain, Wrath of the Berserker, Earthquake, Avalanche, and Call of the Ancients are reduced by 30%.

I included all 5 long cooldown skills so the 2 piece maintains utility for other builds. Who knows, this may shake up the choice of utility skills for Wastes Barbs as well? Probably not.

(4) Set:

During Whirlwind you gain 30% increased attack speed and movement speed and 40% reduced damage.

Combine the existing 4 piece bonus with the attack speed movement speed bonuses of the BK set.

(6) Set:

Whirlwind gains the effect of the Blood Funnel rune.
During Whirlwind you deal 400% increased damage.

Avoids Blood Funnel being the mandatory rune choice. Boosts all damage (including skills which don't interrupt WW like Overpower) by a bit more than the current 6 piece boosts Dust Devils. Hopefully this is enough to compensate the fewer tornado hits. Obviously increase the boost if not.

Skull Grasp:

Secondary:

During Whirlwind your Fury costs are reduced by 50% and your Life per Fury spent is increased by 150%

Since the 6 piece boosts all damage, not just Dust Devils, I figured Skull Grasp is a good place to solve the resource problem. I liked Samir's suggestion of reducing resource usage and boosting LPFS to compensate so much I stole it and added a bit on top. Hopefully 50% reduction is enough.

Bul Kathos' Wedding Band

Secondary:

During Whirlwind gain (25-35)% increased damage against enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

A way to help deal with single targets like stubborn elites and rift guardians. Inspired by the DH Single Out passive.

Bul Kathos' Immolation

New Legendary Amulet

Secondary:

When wielding a 2-handed weapon, Whirlwind has a 25% chance on Crititcal Hit to cause monsters to burn for 1000% weapon damage as fire per second for (2-4) seconds.

This may be a total flop, but an attempt to give 2 handed weapons a boost that is a bit less boring than "increase damage by 50%".

Bul Kathos' Oath:

(2) Set:

During Whirlwind gain 1 Fury for every enemy struck.
Overpower gains the effect of the Revel rune.

Extra resource boost for going the fast attacking dual wield route. Taken from the Wind Shear rune, which would obviously be altered to some other effect. Revel doubles the damage of Overpower, making this weapon set (hopefully) inviting for those who like to run this skill instead of War Cry.
Thank you Free for opening a real discussion about how we can change WW to meet the current mechanics. You have far more sway than I do.

The idea about DDs hitting 3 times instead of 1 would solve part of the tics for zodiac procs. Changing the Skull Grasp into a RCR and APS item is probably the best idea. Giving the 2 piece an LPFS or Blood Funnel rune at 3% would solve healing. What is missing in my opinion would be an item that gives the Windshear rune. This would open up the ability to use other elements and other weapons and make WW usable with other builds.
@Free: Great post and awesome ideas :)

+1 and more to you, good sir
11/14/2015 09:03 PMPosted by Free
Higher APS now eats more Fury and WW and DDs do more damage
- Since there are no breakpoints, we spawn fewer tornadoes (net DPS loss)
- Fewer tornadoes means less AOE damage (another net DPS loss)


  • First of all
  • honestly i am not trolling here :)

  • Secondly
  • How can i help you to understand that if is balanced correctly the APS Multiplier it will give u same damage in the end
    I am genuinely honest here, help me to help you :)

    Typical example:
    2.3 If before with 3 APS u had 6 DD per second and each did 2500% wep damage=6*2500
    2.4 And now with 3 APS i will spam normalized 2 DD per second but they will 3times more damage because of APS= 2*3*2500=6*2500
    Blizz just need to get the APS multiplier right
    OFC before we had WW/DD as floor function, so maybe add a passive 1.1*AP multiplier from start
    or something similar

  • Thirdly
  • APS multiplier need to be factored in all Procs related stuff, this way u dont lose All the balance u had from procs in 2.3
    AKA if u have that 3APS
    When u crit u get healed by 3*1%mas health
    When u proc Zodiac u get 3*1sec, or u get ur Proc coefficient raised to from default 20% by APS multiplier aka get it at 60% now
    And so on

    OFC we can get also the option to make as default for WW to hits always 5 times in 1 sec aka every 12 frames
    And DD to spawn 3.33 times per sec, aka every 18 frames
    Because of how different items ICD have different values:
    Llike one refers to 1 sec or 60 frames as base
    Other item refers to 0.9 sec or 54 frames as base
    Other item refers to 0.8sec or aka 48 frames as base
    and so on...

    And balance things around those ticks WW/DD at 5/3.33 with dmg and procs

    Edit: Totally Sneaky edit TroloLOL
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/20742934194?page=3#42

    Since devs and set already have Rend there pushed in to ti...
    Lets just buff it decently to be worth taking on skill bar, no need to fight it and remove it from set

    Only way to buff rend damage and OP to Wastes and not messing balance in IK combo is only with:

    6p
    And put Rend and OP directly there with that 500-800% damage bonus
    Together with WW damage all runes
    Or even with current that is DD at 2500

    Or Bul-Kathos's set
    and make the set Chantodo similar

    IF we give all runes to WW in set This must be only on 6p NOT 2p or 4p
    BK sword can bring that extra damage to OP and Rend like 500%

    Or to make it more interesting the set like chantodo:
    Option A)
    While channeling WW increase the the damage of Next Rend or OP by 10%
    This effect stacks And can go as high as 100(Raekor like-hood)


    Explanation:
    And using OP or rend consumes all
    AND with no ASI at all would take us 10 sec to reach it
    But since BK increase attack speed and Dust devils help and etc
    And OFC with decent ASI(and more attacks speed) we can take stacks to stack easy in 5sec or even less
    So we will consume Rend only with max stacks and will last for 15 sec
    While for OP wil be used whenever ready wont matter if we consume them at full stacks or half stacks or third stacs damage actually will only increase for OP, because this is how works :)
    So Rend will do like always 1000% increase damage
    While OP since it reset like twice sooner before can get max stacks will do like 500% increased damage


    Option B
    While channeling WW increase the the damage of Next Rend or OP by 70%
    This effect stacks up to 100 every use consumes up to 10 stacks


    Explanation again:
    here the damage is switched towards more damage to OP
    ((the above Option A is kinda more towards Rend damage...kinda...))
    Mechanics will work like above more or less
    Meaning we can get 10 Stacks like... in 4 sec?
    While OP will reset sooner than 4 sec ofc with high attack speed and is ok to happen that

    With high enough Attack speed(also GG at having stricken at 10 stacks per second with WW in all 2.4 and nearly non seen it, and maybe 2.4.1 lol lets hope it passes. and a little CDR even from default minimum gear) we would reset OP with crits from WW like every 2 seconds
    For example have OP on fire and WW on physical
    Before getting to physical u will be sure to have left enough charges to expend in Physical phase
    Because if u consume up 10max charges per cast, and OP resets in 2 sec, u will do only 3 casts inside Physical phase, so having stored up 30 charges before that is enough :)
    The second u get to Physical phase We will press OP on every cool-down
    While outside Fire we will wait to have at least 10 charges before using OP

    Meaning Rend wil do 700%increased damage
    While OP will do 700% increased damage

    -->But the fact u can accumulate stacks to unload in COE own phase things change completely from option A

    Ofc numbers tweeked for good so "More or less" the WW/DD package does like 60% of total damage
    While Rend and OP bring each 35%
    So this is what I have been reading so far. WW itself if broken right now. It does not increase procs with increased attack speed from the BK bonus. I noticed that my Stalgards is throwing far fewer axes, and it is the same for sash of knives. I have also read that the same problem is occuring with shard of hate.
    11/15/2015 06:12 AMPosted by Enoone
    First of all
    honestly i am not trolling here :)


    No worries--I've never taken issue with you. As always, I appreciate your input, particularly when you are much, much better at math than I.

    11/15/2015 06:12 AMPosted by Enoone
    How can i help you to understand that if is balanced correctly the APS Multiplier it will give u same damage in the end
    I am genuinely honest here, help me to help you :)


    Oh, but I agree! In fact, that's exactly the intent behind my re-design: output roughly the same (or slightly more with synergizing legendaries) DPS without the reliance on Dust Devils (perhaps the main culprit in server lag).

    However, losing or reducing Dust Devils does reduce the AOE effect of WW. Simply put, a player can spawn a DD that will travel across the screen, hit a mob, and proc AD, which will hit surrounding mobs. Sans DDs, a Barb needs to be much, much closer to proc AD (and Bloodshed). This is one of the reasons I created legendaries that boost the DPS beyond what the current Waste DDs can achieve--if we give up AOE, we need more DPS to compensate, particularly on RGs and elites.

    11/15/2015 06:12 AMPosted by Enoone
    Thirdly
    APS multiplier need to be factored in all Procs related stuff, this way u dont lose All the balance u had from procs in 2.3


    Look, a conclusion! ;)

    But yes, I agree 100%. In my re-design, I increased the proc coefficient to compensate for the lack of Dust Devils. My thinking was, we'll hit less often, but if the coefficient is higher (and if APS can be factored into it), we'll be just fine.

    11/14/2015 11:15 PMPosted by Samir
    Whatever they do if they keep Rend and Dust Devils in the build, Lamentation needs to buff Rend more synergistically with Wastes not IK and Skull Grasp needs to buff devils.


    Really, I just want them to get Rend out the WW set. It's a great skill with the buff and Lamentation, but it's also a difficult and squishy build to play. I would much prefer they shift it to a separate item (such as my example) or a new set altogether.

    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    Some good ideas in this thread. Here's my pitiful attempt as a Demon Hunter player who took up playing a Wastes Barb this season because why not?


    No disclaimer needed. I appreciate your input. This is just an idea thread and anyone is welcome to post and try out ideas. :)

    I'd like to comment on a few of your ideas and discuss a few finer points.

    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    Hurricane: slow pulled enemies by 50% for 2 seconds.


    I feel this is too similar to Iceblink. One of my intentions was to avoid duplicating the effects offered by other legendaries or gem. For example, this is too similar to Fire Walkers:

    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    Volcanic Eruption: Leave a magma trail in your wake that deals 200% weapon damage per second for 3 seconds as Fire.


    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    (2) Set:

    The cooldown of Ignore Pain, Wrath of the Berserker, Earthquake, Avalanche, and Call of the Ancients are reduced by 30%.

    I included all 5 long cooldown skills so the 2 piece maintains utility for other builds. Who knows, this may shake up the choice of utility skills for Wastes Barbs as well? Probably not.


    Skills such as EQ, Avalanche, and CoTA aren't really used in WW builds, and this doesn't do anything to help WW. In addition, those skills require us to momentarily stop channeling, and that means death in high tiers of GRs. I would much prefer the focus of a WW to set to be about mobility, speed, and constant, unbroken channeling. That, to me, is the fun and essence of a WW build--constantly on the go, making strategic decisions on the fly, and picking fights based on surrounding conditions.

    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    During Whirlwind gain (25-35)% increased damage against enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

    A way to help deal with single targets like stubborn elites and rift guardians. Inspired by the DH Single Out passive.


    An interesting idea, but not suited for a WW build. We want groups of mobs and adds on RGs for AD and Bloodshed damage, so getting them to separate for a small, presumably additive bonus isn't worth it. We also need Blood Frenzy from PE on lots of mobs to reduce cooldowns via Zodiac.

    11/15/2015 05:26 AMPosted by Greg
    What is missing in my opinion would be an item that gives the Windshear rune. This would open up the ability to use other elements and other weapons and make WW usable with other builds.


    You wouldn't need Wind Shear. Here's what I put in my OP:

    11/14/2015 09:03 PMPosted by Free
    Wrath of the Wastes

    (2) Set:
    Increase Fury Generation by 10 (Barbarian Only)
    During Whirlwind you gain 30% inceased attack speed and movement speed.


    Bracers of Vasily
    Legendary Bracers
    366-421 Armor
    Primary
    Attack Speed Increased by 5.0-6.0%
    Elemental skills deal 15-20% more damage

    Secondary
    Whirlwind's elemental damage type is converted into (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Physical) regardless of selected rune.
    (This is intended to provide elemental diversity to the WW build and allow players to get away from BK weapons as the only viable weapon for any and every level of WW builds. The legendary affix will roll as one of the four elements available and that will be the element that WW and all effects. The additional guaranteed elemental damage primary affix is meant to further bolster elemental damage, but the IAS roll could factor into Skull Grasp's multiplier.)
    Oh, but I agree! In fact, that's exactly the intent behind my re-design: output roughly the same (or slightly more with synergizing legendaries) DPS without the reliance on Dust Devils (perhaps the main culprit in server lag).

    However, losing or reducing Dust Devils does reduce the AOE effect of WW. Simply put, a player can spawn a DD that will travel across the screen, hit a mob, and proc AD, which will hit surrounding mobs. Sans DDs, a Barb needs to be much, much closer to proc AD (and Bloodshed). This is one of the reasons I created legendaries that boost the DPS beyond what the current Waste DDs can achieve--if we give up AOE, we need more DPS to compensate, particularly on RGs and elites.


    Things is that this doesn't changes at all, if they are fewer, but still travel same distance like before and have same AOE hit box
    Its a math related thing if APS Multiplier for damage is balance 2.4 and 2.3 It is same thing even if u spawn 2 now and before did spawn 6
    Common i did write this >.> explaining it perfectly

    Look, a conclusion! ;)

    But yes, I agree 100%. In my re-design, I increased the proc coefficient to compensate for the lack of Dust Devils. My thinking was, we'll hit less often, but if the coefficient is higher (and if APS can be factored into it), we'll be just fine

    hey i concluded before also :P
    In 3 different posts!!!

    Is just what u offer is curious different and yes could work with some a lo of number crunching :P , but requires a complete redesign and revamp of the set and new items and so on

    What i offer is a easy fix to Now since we certainly know wastes wont get redesigned at all, not now at least

    How ever BK weapons DO need to get a redesign NOW
    OR just added wind-sheer rune to it also , and transform the speed buff to WW in something else

    PS: your name as always disappears from quoted posts >.>
    If you Bracers roll a certain element, then they won't be cube-able the same as the Halycon Amulet is at the moment.

    @Enoone, I think if you edit the quote the name disappears, but don't quote me on that ;)
    11/15/2015 01:02 PMPosted by xRageamok
    If you Bracers roll a certain element, then they won't be cube-able the same as the Halycon Amulet is at the moment.


    That's a bug. The intent here is that the bracers would be worn while Hexing Pants of Channeling Mantle is in the Cube.


    11/15/2015 02:41 AMPosted by nswhorse
    During Whirlwind gain (25-35)% increased damage against enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

    A way to help deal with single targets like stubborn elites and rift guardians. Inspired by the DH Single Out passive.


    An interesting idea, but not suited for a WW build. We want groups of mobs and adds on RGs for AD and Bloodshed damage, so getting them to separate for a small, presumably additive bonus isn't worth it. We also need Blood Frenzy from PE on lots of mobs to reduce cooldowns via Zodiac.


    And what happens with RGs that don't have adds? Obviously you can leave isolated elites behind once their mobs are gone, but I was trying to think of some way to add just a bit of single target potential, because we can't leave an isolated RG behind. Perhaps my motivation is I keep forgetting to snapshot Stricken. ;-) Anyway, here's a couple of alternatives:

    - During Whirlwind you have 40% chance on Critical Hit to deal 200% of your Area Damage to enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

    40% chance x 50% crit chance (most WW Barbs will have at least this) = 20% chance, the normal proc rate for AD. Double AD because Bloodshed obviously doesn't work on single targets.

    - During Whirlwind your Critical Hit chance is increased [by 25%/to 100%] against enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

    25% crit is what Single Out (where I stole the idea from) offers, though it has a 20 yard radius, not 10. 100% crit might actually be necessary to make this worthwhile.

    - During Whirlwind you have 1% chance on Critical Hit to deal 5% of a monster's remaining life as physical damage to enemies at least 30 yards away from any other enemies.

    Yes, I'm resurrecting Crushing Blow from D2. This becomes less effective as the monster loses more life and Stricken becomes more effective. 5% may be overkill.

    Obviously the concern with something like this (trying to add single target potential via an item to a skill that is all about doing lots of damage quickly to lots of grouped monsters) is that by making it strong enough to be worth the bother, you probably end up making it OP.
    Crushing Blow is too strong in Grifts, they took it off The Furnace for this exact reason when they first introduced them.

    11/15/2015 01:28 PMPosted by Free
    11/15/2015 01:02 PMPosted by xRageamok
    If you Bracers roll a certain element, then they won't be cube-able the same as the Halycon Amulet is at the moment.


    That's a bug. The intent here is that the bracers would be worn while Hexing Pants of Channeling Mantle is in the Cube.


    I meant if they roll with "all runes change to fire/physical/lightning" and you cube them, what happens? Is it going to just pick an element, or match the element rolled onto bracers, or match your highest element?

    edit: I figure Halcyon's is easier to fix because it's one per class, is it cube-able yet on the PTR?
    11/15/2015 03:35 PMPosted by nswhorse
    Yes, I'm resurrecting Crushing Blow from D2. This becomes less effective as the monster loses more life and Stricken becomes more effective. 5% may be overkill.


    You're not replacing it.... you're just adding another must-have item/affix. I do not wish for our skills / procs to be balanced around the addition of such items. Even 0.5% is overkill at the end of the day due to mechanics.
    11/15/2015 03:35 PMPosted by nswhorse
    And what happens with RGs that don't have adds?


    You quit and remake.

    At the highest tiers, this will always be a fishing game. No adds means no AD, no Bloodshed, and thus far less damage. Stricken goes a long way to kill the RG, but a successful clear still relies on so much RNG that fishing is in the mix.

    For my re-design, I tried to incorporate a way to make non-add RGs more tolerable. The Waste 6-pc bonus (multiplicative), along with the new Skull Grasp (IAS as a damage multiplier), would go a long way in making those fights less fishy.

    11/15/2015 03:35 PMPosted by nswhorse
    - During Whirlwind your Critical Hit chance is increased [by 25%/to 100%] against enemies at least 10 yards away from any other enemies.

    25% crit is what Single Out (where I stole the idea from) offers, though it has a 20 yard radius, not 10. 100% crit might actually be necessary to make this worthwhile.


    It would be better to make this a passive. Again, WW builds require you to group mobs. Reworking Brawler would be the best option: You deal X% (multiplicative) more damage against three or fewer targets.

    11/15/2015 03:35 PMPosted by nswhorse
    Yes, I'm resurrecting Crushing Blow from D2.


    Because of how HP scaling and weapon damage work in this game, that mechanic is absolutely broken. Not a good idea. It was so OP a few PTRs back.
    With enough resource reduction on PTR i could channel WW no issue but at loss of area dmg and cooldown.
    then of course recovery loss from lower attack speeds.

    to be honest i think 2 set bonus of rend should be replaced with:
    2 set) increase fury generation by 10 and cooldown reduction by 25%
    which would free up 3 gear slots of CDR stats as well as help on the fury generation.
    you could roll more RCR if needed or a better DPS or mitigation stat for shoulders, rings, weapons etc.
    Then just increase damage and recovery in some form or other as needed.

    They could also mess with the idea of some vanilla D3 mechanics. into the fray gave fury on critical hits. revert or incorporate fury on crit into something else maybe?
    CD on wrath was lowered for fury spent on a rune like the IK set does now as a bonus.

    I had even thought of the idea of extraction of set bonus through kanais cube, like replacing 2 set bonus from Waste set with set bonus from IK set for CD on wrath/ancients. in effect causing Waste set to have no 2 set bonus but double 4 set bonuses and a 6 set.
    basically all classes able to cut and paste together desired set bonuses. But im sure there would be some overpowered build from one of the classes becoming mandatory cookie cutter.
    Update! I've updated the OP with the following changes:

    1. Folded the BK swords into the Waste set and changed their bonuses.

    2. Buffed the damage of Waste 6-pc bonus.

    3. Revised Bracer of Vasily.

    4. Added a revised Lacuni Prowler.

    5. Added reworked Passives.

    On to comments.

    11/17/2015 08:13 AMPosted by InnerTurmoil
    to be honest i think 2 set bonus of rend should be replaced with:
    2 set) increase fury generation by 10 and cooldown reduction by 25%
    which would free up 3 gear slots of CDR stats as well as help on the fury generation.
    you could roll more RCR if needed or a better DPS or mitigation stat for shoulders, rings, weapons etc.


    I'm a big fan of CDR in the build, but considering the set is built around a spender without a cooldown, it feels like an unnecessary addition. Currently, Barbs don't need CDR beyond weapons, paragon, and a diamond to maintain perma-IP and (near) perma-Wrath. More CDR would actually jack this build's DPS through the roof and the intent isn't to make the build considerably more powerful (though a little buff wouldn't hurt).

    11/15/2015 03:59 PMPosted by xRageamok
    I meant if they roll with "all runes change to fire/physical/lightning" and you cube them, what happens? Is it going to just pick an element, or match the element rolled onto bracers, or match your highest element?


    My apologies for neglecting this comment--it got buried.

    My intent with Vasily's (who is the brother of Bul-Kathos, by the way) is to completely open WW and other builds to total elemental diversity. Here's a sample of the revised item and how it works:

    Bracers of Vasily
    Legendary Bracers
    366-421 Armor

    Primary
    Fire skills deal 20% more damage
    500 Strength
    500 Vitality
    Attack Speed Increased by 6.0%
    Critical Hit Chance increased by 6.0%

    Secondary
    All elemental damage dealt is converted into Fire regardless of selected skill runes rune.

    In this case, imagine you were running the Dust Devils rune on WW (since my revised Waste set no longer grants that rune for free). Dust Devils is a Physical rune, but this item would convert your elemental damage type to Fire. In fact, all the damage you deal will be converted to Fire, and this would apply to pets as well. These bracers would completely open up the WW build to elemental diversity, but would be applicable to other builds as well. Since that power is a legendary affix, it could be Cubed, and I imagine the code to implement this would be relatively simple. It would also be a valuable (or semi-valuable) item for other classes as well. The added elemental damage might also make it viable in place of Strongarms (currently the most useful and necessary bracer for Barbs).

    Note that the inclusion of IAS is meant to augment the revised Skull Grasp, and the fact that it comes with CHC makes it a viable alternative to Lacuni Prowlers.

    11/17/2015 08:13 AMPosted by InnerTurmoil
    basically all classes able to cut and paste together desired set bonuses.


    Personally, I'm not a fan of mixing and matching sets. I'd much rather have a set and complimentary legendaries that change the way they work (like Lut Socks with MOTE, for example).

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