Invokers: Vit or Str?

Crusader
I know this sounds obvious, but I listened in PTR as two side of this argument broke out, which I sum up as:
1 vit = 10 thorns
1 str = 1% increase in damage (thorns included)

Can anyone convincingly explain why one or the other is the way to go for gear and paragon?

Thanks
Vitality through Heart of Iron contributes additively to your overall thorns number. Strength is a multiplicative bonus to your overall thorns number. So strength would be a more powerful stat.

Can look at some numbers to confirm, assume a baseline of:

Strength : 5 000
Vitality : 5 000
Thorns : 200 000 (includes 5 000 x 6 = 30 000 from Heart of Iron, 170 000 from gear and gem say)
Thorns Damage : ((5000 x 10)/100 + 1) x 200 000 = 100 200 000
(Assuming multiplier of 10x Strength, since this seems to give a closer damage value to the numbers I'm seeing in PTR, I stand to be corrected. Also ignoring other skill and item multipliers for simplicity.)

So now you have a choice to either increase Strength or Vitality by 5 000, say.

Increase Vitality by 5 000:

Strength : 5 000
Vitality : 10 000
Thorns : 230 000 (includes 10 000 x 6 = 60 000 from Heart of Iron)
Thorns Damage : 115 230 000

Increase Strength by 5 000
Strength : 10 000
Vitality : 5 000
Thorns : 200 000 (includes 5 000 x 6 = 30 000 from Heart of Iron)
Thorns Damage : 200 200 000

So Strength seems to be the clear winner.
I vaguely remember seeing some math that proved you should want to get an even amount of str and vitality.
11/30/2015 08:12 PMPosted by Ravashak
I vaguely remember seeing some math that proved you should want to get an even amount of str and vitality.


That was probably one of my posts and I failed hard on that.

You technically want your Strength and Thorns to be equal when applicable (this is never possible though). I was mistakenly equating Vitality ==> Thorns, however, there are other sources of Thorns damage besides Vitality.

I would focus on Strength over Vitality. Caldesann's Augment? Go Strength. Paragon? Go Strength.

Your rolls on Gear though would ideally contain both Strength and Vitality on every slot.

Looking at the leaderboards, it looks like Diamonds are the choice du jour. Not Rubies. Not Amethysts.
With near perfect thorns rolls on every piece of gear vit becomes better than strength if you have more than 60k strength. If you have >300k thorns (Iron Maiden included) you ned 30k strength before vit becomes better. (Both examples are roughly and youll need slightly less)
12/01/2015 03:58 AMPosted by Goldarm
With near perfect thorns rolls on every piece of gear vit becomes better than strength if you have more than 60k strength. If you have >300k thorns (Iron Maiden included) you ned 30k strength before vit becomes better. (Both examples are roughly and youll need slightly less)


my sader have 465k thorns damage and items not perfect, cler 60 in 8 min solo no follower
12/01/2015 03:58 AMPosted by Goldarm
With near perfect thorns rolls on every piece of gear vit becomes better than strength if you have more than 60k strength. If you have >300k thorns (Iron Maiden included) you ned 30k strength before vit becomes better. (Both examples are roughly and youll need slightly less)


Could you explain the maths here?
I'm trying to figure out how it works in order to gear my HC crusader properly when 2.4 hits live servers.

On the other hand, how is it possible to even get close to 60k Str? 30k seems already challenging to get to.
Gotta rework the math since Invoker 2piece bonus got nerfed to 25% and Iron Maiden got reduced to 50%.
12/03/2015 03:16 AMPosted by k0rvet
Could you explain the maths here?
I'm trying to figure out how it works in order to gear my HC crusader properly when 2.4 hits live servers.


If you increase your Thorny Y by the amount X thats (X / Y) x 100% dmg increase. Increasing your Strength Z by the amount W thats a (W / Z + 100) x 100% dmg increase or rougly (W / Z) x 100% dmg increase.

With near perfect rolls you have about 300k thorns (80 rank thorns gem: 150k, topaz 64k, gear 86k+) so 10k Vit would be +50k thorns which would equal a (50/300) x 100% = 16.66666666% dmg increase. At 59900k strength another 10k strength would be (10000 / 59900 + 100) x 100% = 16.666666666% dmg increase.

So even with just the rank 80 legendary gem you already need more than 30k strength for vit to be better than strength. And yeah, ofc is 30k challenging and you probably wont be getting there anyway so TL:DR strength > vit ALWAYS (dmg wise)

12/03/2015 06:11 AMPosted by SpeyerDragon
Gotta rework the math since Invoker 2piece bonus got nerfed to 25% and Iron Maiden got reduced to 50%.


Nope, cause theyre multiplicative towards mainstat and base thorns.
12/03/2015 02:44 AMPosted by Code187
my sader have 465k thorns damage and items not perfect, cler 60 in 8 min solo no follower


300k without Iron Maiden I meant, so you have around 232.5k thorns for this equotation.
the difference in the two presentations is that the Str guy found a hidden 10x multiplier to bring his equation in line with what he saw in game for thorns damage.

Can the Vit guy claim his equations roughly produce real damage output for thorns?

I ask, because if you both agree on the 10x, then the Vit guy's output means that 1k Str added to a base of 8k would produce not 12.5% but a 125% increase; and that's a big difference.
12/03/2015 08:59 AMPosted by Grendahl
I ask, because if you both agree on the 10x, then the Vit guy's output means that 1k Str added to a base of 8k would produce not 12.5% but a 125% increase; and that's a big difference.


There is no hidden x10 multiplier... If there was Invoker would have cleared way higher. Also best place to see is RG, ith this hidden x10 multiplier you would kill the RG in like 10 seconds even at GR level 85+.
Edit: The x10 multiplier actually doesnt really make a difference. Cause the percentage dmg increase depends on the ratio between the amount of strength you already have and the amount you get, so no matter if strength counts 10 times or 100 times the dmg increase by getting X STrength stays the same (nearly the same its like 0.01% difference because of the 100% base dmg)

Also where was a Vit guy in this thread? The guy with that x10 multiplier that doesnt exist came to conclusion strength is better and I came to that conclusion too.
Admittedly, i saw the absurd 60k Str and assumed your thread was stating that it took this much Str before Str was better than Vit. I'm a reductionist, I like to reduce things to the smallest numbers I can. For example, if I were doing the math on this, i would show that 1 Vit = 7.5 thorns; and then if 1 Str was more or less than this, I would show which was superior.

But I can see where you comment on Str in the middle of a paragraph I glossed over.
So, basically, roll gear for str/vit/allress or str/vit/cdr or str/vit/as? Better use Leorics crown in cube for the CDR than using heart of iron? What about weapon in cube? 2x dmg from bombard seens good with the thorns rune...
that was the first ever thing i tried when ptr 2.4 launched... and yea, double cast bombardment flail in cube + belt of trove at 6 secs really melts trash, and with auto cast belt of trove and manual cast bombardment, u further melt RGs at an even faster rate..

but 1 thing to take note tho, the bombardment thorn runes felt kinda lackluster to me. U will understand when u do only a single cast at higher GRs.

With the current Invoker set 4pc buff right now, belt of trove is only used to keep the 50% dmg reduction uptime perma and not really making it do the main damage.

With this in mind, ur weapon cube and main hand cube will offer better build versatility like going Heaven's fury, condemn etc..which are currently the better dps builds for climbing sader leaderboards.
12/03/2015 09:27 AMPosted by Goldarm
12/03/2015 08:59 AMPosted by Grendahl
I ask, because if you both agree on the 10x, then the Vit guy's output means that 1k Str added to a base of 8k would produce not 12.5% but a 125% increase; and that's a big difference.


There is no hidden x10 multiplier... If there was Invoker would have cleared way higher. Also best place to see is RG, ith this hidden x10 multiplier you would kill the RG in like 10 seconds even at GR level 85+.
Edit: The x10 multiplier actually doesnt really make a difference. Cause the percentage dmg increase depends on the ratio between the amount of strength you already have and the amount you get, so no matter if strength counts 10 times or 100 times the dmg increase by getting X STrength stays the same (nearly the same its like 0.01% difference because of the 100% base dmg)

Also where was a Vit guy in this thread? The guy with that x10 multiplier that doesnt exist came to conclusion strength is better and I came to that conclusion too.


Yes, the 10x multiplier is incorrectly labelled. I actually had 15k strength, 40% physical dmg bonus, the 100% increase from Endless Walk, and the Invoker set bonuses, which together probably make up the missing multiplier lol.

But the analysis remains the same, just divide out the 10 from the numbers above.

Str > Vit

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