Dual wield WOL SWK instead of Torch?

Monk
http://www.diablofans.com/builds/71598-wol-swk-dw

might this work well?
For starters I'd just be an !@# and say no because you have SWK pieces in there.. Anything with SWK 2.4 is just yuk...

That said ... SWK returns the same rotten issue as always, SW stack management. (YUK)
Swap out FoT - Quickening for WotHF - Fists of Fury. The DoT effect on that rune should apply passive SW stacking as far as I know.
I haven't tried it myself, but that's the deal anyway ... that will make you able to more bell, less punching.

If you don't have something better to do, then this build can work I suppose. But you'll be better of getting more ancient items and then building a LoN setup. It will do more damage and you can completely let go of the generator..
It depends on what you want to do with it. Speed farm, push grift or just have a little fun while doing either.

Personally, I dont like your exact build. Vengeful Wind add stacks for more dmg on SW + the sunwuko 4 piece, but SW does no dmg at all - even with the belt - and you lose the passive stack generation when you go melee range. And you do go melee range when you want to use your generator, but maybe you wouldnt have to with a 2-hander and/or more passive generation over a generator ability. Could be Epiphany or blinding flash with the spirit return head in cube (dont remember the name). CDR on weapons would also be really good.

And just to compare dmg numbers of SW and WoL:
10 stacks of SW ~ 2,100 % dmg per second
4 piece with 6 stacks ~ 6,000 % weapon dmg per second
1 WoL ~ 250,000 % weapon dmg per cast.

In short, SW dmg is irrelevant. I'd skip Vengeful Wind and go with either Torch or an offhand with +fire dmg - or lightning if you wanted to cap out on grifts (pillars does way more dps than explosive light).

Next up are grifts. I think the build have a serious problem here. There simply isnt enough dmg reduction for you to survive when things start hurting and there isnt a way to add it either... As mentioned above, pillars would also be stronger here, because you cant one shot everything, but then you also need to really have the right mix between attack speed and cdr, so you dont run out of spirit (you cant use Cindercoat if you go lightning).

On the other hand, the build is really good at speed farming on T10, because you pretty much one shot everything. Though, I'd probably prefer to go with In-geom in offhand, to just spam your abilities endlessly - especially dashing strike for speed. The build is still not better for speed farming than the LoN WoL setup (one punch monk), but it is much easier to put togetter since you get all the sunwuko pieces "for free".

On a final note, dual wield would in my opinion be the best because you have the In-geom or +elemental dmg option, but it depends on what you want to do with the build and if your spirit generation is high enough.
Can you explain your math on the 250,000% figure? Even counting F&R I came out with half that. It still makes SW damage irrelevant, but I'm curious about order of operations or what I'm missing that you added in.
01/22/2016 06:27 AMPosted by NinjaKhan
Can you explain your math on the 250,000% figure? Even counting F&R I came out with half that. It still makes SW damage irrelevant, but I'm curious about order of operations or what I'm missing that you added in.


Glenhimelf missed somthing with that 250 000% dmg...

Using of Vengeful Wind fist is not realy for SW dmg, but mostly for easy management of SW stacks for WOL cast.
i am thinking of using generator(maybe antoher one...) just for triggering F&R and myabe somtimes stacking SW - picking up a monster somhow isolated from the group, so not need to stay in the middle of combat.
Only thing I may have missed is if the following items arent multiplicative:

835% base dmg on WoL Explosive Light
+150% from Tzo Krin's Gaze (maybe up to 165% if you have WoL dmg on boots)
+150% from Kyoshiro's Blade (increased to 250% against 3 or less enemies)
+150% from Pinto's Pride
+1,500% from Sunwuko 6 piece
+20% from fire skill dmg (maybe 40%)

835% x 2.5 x 2.5 x 2.5 x 16 x 1.2 = 250,500

F+R and Bane of the trapped was left out because it apply to all your dmg done.

Vengeful Wind may be needed for enough stacks with dual wielding, but i dont believe it is. In the following video Quinn is spamming WoL a few times with dual wield and not dropping below 8 stacks, which should make it possible to not drop SW even without Vengeful. Though, Vengeful will make it easier because you are at lower risk of dropping your stacks to annoying enemies. The WoL spam is from 2:15 ish to 2:40 ish, but watching the whole thing wouldnt hurt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efVpq0WGVwU

At some point he also showcase the 2-hand version in grift 70 - it's working, but keeping your distance is key.
I thought all damage that added to a specific skill was additive with each other.

So rather than 250%^3 (for a total multiplier of 1,562.5%), it's merely 550% once.

That becomes 835% x 5.5 x 16 x 1.2 = 88,176

As far as Vengeful Wind is concerned, it's more a quality of life item. Bell can refresh stacks if it crits, but if you get an unlucky no crit streak it's possible it drops. SW damage is still never relevant compared to Bell damage. The bigger issue is losing sweeping wind and suddenly losing 50% damage reduction which is awful in high GRifts.
Does anyone know wheter pintos pride legendary 150% damage bonus is additive or multiplicative?
I cant say for sure but it seems for me from rough testing it is multiplicative. But i need to be sure.
01/22/2016 07:34 AMPosted by Glenhimself

835% base dmg on WoL Explosive Light
+150% from Tzo Krin's Gaze (maybe up to 165% if you have WoL dmg on boots)
+150% from Kyoshiro's Blade (increased to 250% against 3 or less enemies)
+150% from Pinto's Pride
+1,500% from Sunwuko 6 piece
+20% from fire skill dmg (maybe 40%)

These are in fact the correct calculations, it was stated in a blue post that all of the new orange text effects added this season are multiplicative, not additive. Although the 150% from Tzo Krin's is blue text skill damage and so it is additive with things like fire ally, unity etc but this build shouldn't have much of that anyway.

My thoughts on the build you proposed are to give up melee entirely, that's the purpose of kyoshiro's belt it seems. Drop that gen for epiphany with either insight or desert shroud, although blinding flash with laws of seph in cube could work too I think. If you did want to use a gen 100% FoF is the only option, the proc rate on sweeping wind stacks is just through the roof. Also as mentioned unity is additive damage and thus not very useful, take near death experience or sixth sense instead. Bane of the Powerful is also additive damage (the buff not the elite damage) so should be replaced with stricken, i'd also replace the esoteric with zei's since you are now ranged.

As far as dual wield vs 2 handed, I haven't done a comparison with using something other than vengeful wind in the offhand but I don't think that's really going to be viable. with my current gear d3planner shows that dual wield average WoL hits are 2.5 billion, with 2 handed it goes up to 4.8 billion. I don't see any fire damage or elite damage on off hand competing with that. If you want max damage you wield torch and put kyoshiro's blade in cube. To be fair you swing slower with a 2 hander but I'm not sure the difference is enough and you also consume spirit faster with dual wield, which sometimes would leave me standing around doing nothing before i swapped to 2 handed.

The big advantage that dual wield with vengeful wind has is that you don't lose your stacks of sweeping wind when a mob runs up to you and prevents your belt from refreshing your stacks and you don't notice in time to stop spamming WoL. The result is that dual wield is far far easier to play, but if you can manage your positioning and dont mind killing some extra whites that you might have normally skipped you hit way harder with a 2 hander.

As far as LoN I haven't done any comparisons except to see that with the current amount of ancients that I have it isn't worth doing

Edit: forgot to mention when you go full range you can drop focus and restraint to use convention + SoJ or for solo a unity instead of SoJ
Did some testing and I think using F&R and going melee as much as possible is a big dmg increase for WOL SWK build. Vangeful Wind fist help when going melee with SW stack management.
The bigest deal is being able to proc F&R, which is not possbile using "ranged" build.

I even do not have yet an ancient Vangeful Wind or Kyoshiro so I used in main hand an Odyn Son and tried a Lighting WOL, even without Torch in cube(put Vangefull Wind) and replaced Cindercoat dmg red bracers. The damage feel much better than ranged version of the build.
The only problem is to survive going melee...
I don't think going melee with FnR is worth it.

A) you will die
B) Zeis doesnt work and its multiplicative
C) other rings in combination with Zeis mostly make up for it such as CoE
D) you loose a skill slot just to be able to proc FnR
E) you loose a weapon slot as you'll need vengeful winds

F) death or cake?... the cake is a lie.. you will die.
01/25/2016 12:37 AMPosted by PaulC
I don't think going melee with FnR is worth it.

A) you will die
B) Zeis doesnt work and its multiplicative
C) other rings in combination with Zeis mostly make up for it such as CoE
D) you loose a skill slot just to be able to proc FnR
E) you loose a weapon slot as you'll need vengeful winds

F) death or cake?... the cake is a lie.. you will die.


Yes, point A) seems to be a real issue.
I tried without Zei's gem.
My personal feeling was that the damage is bigger due to F&R.
Tried grift67 - (paragon 840 and not with good gear). Damage was really enough even by trying to focus a lot on defense. but died A LOT indeed.
If you die in 67 imagine what i'll be like in GR 75+ You will be dead most of the time.

I've tried melee build and i can say that it sucks. The most gain from it is that you can group large packs for area damage, but you have to sacrafice way too much for it. Zeis, survivability, skill slots. And with WoL fire rune it's AoE is big enough that you dont have to group enemys forsfully. You can just agro the whole room go to the corner and spam WoL in the midle or on elite pack and everethyng will die anyway.
01/25/2016 05:24 AMPosted by Sparki
If you die in 67 imagine what i'll be like in GR 75+ You will be dead most of the time.

I've tried melee build and i can say that it sucks. The most gain from it is that you can group large packs for area damage, but you have to sacrafice way too much for it. Zeis, survivability, skill slots. And with WoL fire rune it's AoE is big enough that you dont have to group enemys forsfully. You can just agro the whole room go to the corner and spam WoL in the midle or on elite pack and everethyng will die anyway.


yes... I like the melee playing style indeed melee builds now are dead...
hopefully, melee will get some love next patch :)
you can play melee with inna generator. WoL just isn't a melee build because you do abyssal damage with anything compared to WoL. Since Gaze lets you cast it at range it makes more sense to abuse Zei's with it.

LoN is fine with it if you manage to find every single ancient.I managed 70 with SWK but clearing has been VERY inefficient since I can't just drag stray mobs with me or they just eliminate my SW stacks.
01/25/2016 07:25 AMPosted by Avermra
you can play melee with inna generator. WoL just isn't a melee build because you do abyssal damage with anything compared to WoL. Since Gaze lets you cast it at range it makes more sense to abuse Zei's with it.

LoN is fine with it if you manage to find every single ancient.I managed 70 with SWK but clearing has been VERY inefficient since I can't just drag stray mobs with me or they just eliminate my SW stacks.


You can use SWK in melee with TR and you can equip Sage's and not lose too much. I'm still optimizing my build but it can farm T8 with holding right mouse and dash and BF when needed. With better gems and an ancient Balance I think T10 would be easy.
T10 is easy for any WoL build. The problem is GR after 70. Is there anyone who maneged to close gr 73+?
01/25/2016 07:25 AMPosted by Avermra
you can play melee with inna generator. WoL just isn't a melee build because you do abyssal damage with anything compared to WoL. Since Gaze lets you cast it at range it makes more sense to abuse Zei's with it.

LoN is fine with it if you manage to find every single ancient.I managed 70 with SWK but clearing has been VERY inefficient since I can't just drag stray mobs with me or they just eliminate my SW stacks.


but for range play I have DH... When get bored wiht range play I want to try some melee. and I do not really like generator builds, are boring.
We can discuss and come up with endless idea about SWK from here on till Season 8 drops.
The fact of the matter is that SWK is a set of broken mechanics and no matter what you try to do with it, it is just utter crap.

Take the 2 piece bonus.. Sweeping Wind dependent. Yet you consume stacks to do damage and as such you drain your stacks and you Loose your damage mitigation and you die. bad deal.
Also, the belt that's suppose to fix this, forces you to like not be in melee range at all which kindda defies the point of using Sweeping Wind at all.
And to that I can only add what has allready been said, that SW damage is insignificant at best.
Also, how many Rifts have you Guys run, where monsters are NOT trying to get up in your face, all close and personal ?? None, right.
Using SWK it's more of a moving game then it is Hack'nSlash.Stupid to say the least.

4 piece bonus - really? What's with the freaking clones already?

6 piece "bonus" ..... Riiight, soo.. yeh .. We've already covered the 2-set bonus, so now that stuff is in your face trying to kill you, you try to bell it to death using all your spirit. Then your SW stacks drop because you need to hit stuff with bells and also your SW drops.. So now you have no spirit and no SW and you do NO damage at all ...
What do we do, oh yeah, use a generator which we're also forced to have on the freaking hotbar which Again defies the point of the Sweeping Wind belt. And while we try to get SW goin, we die.. Woohoo !! Go SWK, really amazing set.
01/25/2016 10:56 PMPosted by Danutz23
01/25/2016 07:25 AMPosted by Avermra
you can play melee with inna generator. WoL just isn't a melee build because you do abyssal damage with anything compared to WoL. Since Gaze lets you cast it at range it makes more sense to abuse Zei's with it.

LoN is fine with it if you manage to find every single ancient.I managed 70 with SWK but clearing has been VERY inefficient since I can't just drag stray mobs with me or they just eliminate my SW stacks.


but for range play I have DH... When get bored wiht range play I want to try some melee. and I do not really like generator builds, are boring.


I agree that they should make classic generator-spender playstyle more appealing, but i'm merely talking from an optimization perspective. They did a slightly better job with generator-spender balance with DH, and that's more because you need to maintain focus+restraint and the fact that you can't have enough resource reduction to completely spam spenderes only.

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