I guess dmo will get nerfed in some way

Wizard
01/09/2016 02:17 PMPosted by Windgrace
Well, Crusaders have had a strong LoN build during the entire PTR. So strong that it didn't even need a typical primary or spender...

And I just read Barbarians are at 88, as well...? Or maybe it was an 86.

My knee jerk reaction to "DMO has done 88" is it should see a final number rebalance but I'm not so sure now. Witch Doctors, Demon Hunters and Monks would seem to be the odd classes out this go-around though. At least just looking at their sets on the PTR leaderboards.


For me, the more important question is whether the classes are balanced for groups. It's almost inevitable that one class would be the best for solo, but you're not going to take a 4 man group with more than 2 wizards to the top of the leaderboards with things the way they are now, and probably not even more than one, which tells me that at least in terms of team play, things are relatively balanced. Is there any class that couldn't be at the top of the leaderboards in a 4-man group?
All classes except monks.Or so it seems.

Final four i think it will decided more by synergies than raw power. Ability to bring defensive/offensive buffs will be decisive.

If we have a globe barb, Twister Wiz and LON Dart wd can benefit a lot, for example. We can even have like 2 ou 3 "ideal" groups, depending on composition. Ultimately, one will prevail, but that is not to say the others will suck. Ofc, everybody will play mostly the same setup/group until another one takes the first spot.

Sorry for the english :D
I really hope 6P Delsere and/or ET Sword will be nerfed. The build has just like 5x more DPS than ANY other build from any other class on the PTR. The more density and the more packed the mobs are, the more DPS the build has. Isn't exactly the definition of a broken build ? It's just like old flame blades in S3 meta or static monk in S4. It's broken because the more density you have, the more DPS you have, so there is no real limit to your DPS with this kind of build...

The problem is clearly the Twisted Sword and not the 6P Delsere (Even if 6P Delsere seems abit overtuned). The sword just brings a broken mechanic to the build with an infinite stacking multiplier. I really hope it will be nerfed, there is absolutely no point if we get one more patch with a broken build just like every patch... (S1 Raekor, S2 M6 DH with Legacy WD, S3 Flame Blades Wizard, S4 Static Monk, S5 Delsere ET Wizard ? Please...)

The twisted sword should be limited to a fixed number of stacks to prevent insane spamming with Mathael Bracers and thus insane AOE DPS. Mechanics which gives infinite scaling have always been at the origin of broken builds.
01/09/2016 05:36 PMPosted by Chewingnom
I really hope 6P Delsere and/or ET Sword will be nerfed. The build has just like 5x more DPS than ANY other build from any other class on the PTR. The more density and the more packed the mobs are, the more DPS the build has. Isn't exactly the definition of a broken build ? It's just like old flame blades in S3 meta or static monk in S4. It's broken because the more density you have, the more DPS you have, so there is no real limit to your DPS with this kind of build...

The problem is clearly the Twisted Sword and not the 6P Delsere (Even if 6P Delsere seems abit overtuned). The sword just brings a broken mechanic to the build with an infinite stacking multiplier. I really hope it will be nerfed, there is absolutely no point if we get one more patch with a broken build just like every patch... (S1 Raekor, S2 M6 DH with Legacy WD, S3 Flame Blades Wizard, S4 Static Monk, S5 Delsere ET Wizard ? Please...)

The twisted sword should be limited to a fixed number of stacks to prevent insane spamming with Mathael Bracers and thus insane AOE DPS. Mechanics which gives infinite scaling have always been at the origin of broken builds.


Stop this BS, there is no infinite scaling, twisters only last so long.

Some of them you listed wasn't even broke, S1 barb is just a solo fishing spec, has zero impact on group or anyone else. S3 wizard is broken? Why top NS clear is 1 wizard dps and 1 DH dps, DH and Wiz were sooo close in 4s, that was the best we can hope for.

And don't even compare that to the broken mass that S4 monk is, where you either need 2, or have the other 3 player support it as xp zdps.

Let's look at top 4s DPS of all patchs

2.1 2 DH
2.1.5 2 DH
2.2 1 DH + 1 Wiz
2.3 2 Monk
2.4 PTR 1 Wiz+1DH or 1 Wiz + 1 WD or 2 WD.

I don't see how is wizard dps an issue when they only take up 1 spot.
01/09/2016 04:48 AMPosted by ximae
either the set, some of the supporting legs or just orbit... hopefully not OID as that can get used by all sets.

there is an 88 clear already with an orbit/oid build.


Told you guys that Orbit was capable of a bit higher than people were clearing with it initially if they went with OiD. Granted, the dude does have 2700 Paragon levels and level 100 gems, but still. There are some other clears with more reasonable Paragon and gem levels, too.

Anyhow, if there is indeed a bug with Orbit and it's not a feature, I hope that they address the bug and not just jump the gun and nerf the entire set. Or since it's just that one rune that's over-performing they could just adjust it. I'm still leaning toward there being a bug with it, though. Watched Quin69 stream the Orbit build pretty much all day yesterday, he's pretty high Paragon and gem level, a decent player, and even he was struggling to beat 81s. He skipped ahead and tried for 85 clears, but after like 6 hours he still couldn't come close while playing the build "normally" (meaning he was only casting Orbit when he had 5 Arcane Dynamo stacks). People in chat kept telling him that he was doing it wrong, but he kept dismissing them.

Twister and Obliteration builds are fine as they are, and if they nerf the set then those builds will just fade away. And EB DMO builds are still lacking heavily, and those builds will go away, too.

So yea... don't nerf the entire set. Address the bug or the over-performing rune (whichever it is) and then buff the other sets and supporting Legendaries to the mid 80 level. Patch is going live in a few days, but they could have still done some adjusting over the last several days that we don't know about yet. Patches tend to go live with at least a few surprises.
^^^ I want to stress that a 2700 clears 88 when 2 other class with 1500 clear 86 faster, is not over performing in any way. 6000 stats can do a lot.
I've been active on the ptr for a few weeks now and I can tell you that no one on any class on any leader board is within 5 GR levels of what will be cleared by the end of season 5. Everyone is still well under whatever numbers will be competed.
Flavin has a twitch vod somewhere of that 88 clear he is very good and yolo augmented a bunch of lvl80+ gems as well.

The longest group of people testing have been the chinese and they apparently will never put a truly busted/bug/abuse out there for blizzard to fix (hellfire and static are good examples). According to chainer he was whispered to stop climbing on barbarian a few times by the chinese.
The only thing I can think of that feels like it under performs right now is monk, but there could be some busted EP build that hasn't been shown yet so who knows but i doubt it will be better than wizard in the long run

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Shame on us if we actually desire power and balance w/o bugs, shame on us!

Yes, players too stupid to realise the difference between a bugged skill and an OP set deserve a crappy class.


cut that tone down, im just saying that it is performing a few grs ahead of the other op classes and like 6-7 of the underdog classes which usually leads to some adjustment in some way. Basically opened the thread so people were aware that 88s have been cleared with it and what repercussions that might have.

01/09/2016 06:18 PMPosted by Malakai
Anyhow, if there is indeed a bug with Orbit and it's not a feature, I hope that they address the bug and not just jump the gun and nerf the entire set. Or since it's just that one rune that's over-performing they could just adjust it. I'm still leaning toward there being a bug with it, though.


Btw im not even sure if the orbit extra explotions are even a bug, as they are triggered only if they have contact surface when you recast, which is a similar mechanic to diamond shards ( it deals the damage when recast).

I have replicated the bug on live too, minus unstable scepter extra esplotions ofc.... so this makes me lean towards a feature.

https://youtu.be/y-ffBKzk6aE (vid of orbit on live)

There is a visual bug with the extra orbits when you use unstable scepter, but they do not deal damage, so dont do anything performancewise. Just looks cool and it is actually related to unstable scepter not the skill itself.

But yeah yeah i agree with all you said, if orbit is bugged.. get it fixed or if its overperforming just tone the numbers down and dont touch the set as the rest of the builds are fine and that would kill them.
Might even just be a hitbox bug that's not even related to orbit itself. If it is a hitbox bug and not directly related to orbit, Blizz probably won't have a way to fix it in time before patch.

Almost nobody even pushes on PTR though, so we won't know actual balance results till like mid season when people start revealing their builds. Too many people do runs and fail RG on purpose so results don't show on the leaderboards.
So this thread was created to make the wiz weaker? If you get your wish then you'll complain wiz is too weak ??
no, this thread was made to let people know gr 88 has been done with dmo which is what might make devs adjust... hopefully nothing.

But if so, lets hope its just orbit.
Why even bring it up? Just enjoy it until they take it away.
01/09/2016 05:48 AMPosted by Tarken
Isn't the orbit build abusing a bug where all the orbs can detonate at once?


Yes

01/09/2016 08:53 AMPosted by MasterJay
And how do we know the Orbit thing is even a bug?


We could never trigger it before we had the sceptre wand to my knowledge. It was a fixed 1 explosion per second regardless of how many mobs were around you or how often you recasted it.

01/09/2016 09:25 AMPosted by Jumpman
Isnt the problem with triumvirate instead?


No

01/09/2016 01:26 PMPosted by Velhoteh
The orbits explode when they touch a monster hitbox. If this is the case, why it is considered a bug?


Because they used to explode without a cooldown very very early in reaper of souls (along with moonlight ward), but then they added an internal cooldown to it because at the time it was so strong other classes were using it (the amulet) and I assume orbit used the same tech.

It is the ability to revive this once patched out behavior that makes it a likely bug.
I am not an expert but it seems the Moonlight Ward bug and this discussion, although likely related, can be separated and we should not mix both.

As per 2.3 tooltip:

Arcane Orbit

Create 4 Arcane Orbs that orbit you, exploding for 265% weapon damage as Arcane when enemies get close.

If they are exploding when surrounded by monsters, then it seems ok. 1060% dmg. It doesn't happen always as you have to meet a condition. IF the four exploded when only one was in contact with a hitbox, then we would have a bug. We still have to pay for the next orbit.

I am aware this build circumvents some stereotypes of the former wiz: a long ranged character which is not supposed to be in melee range and even less surrounded by monsters. This was never a problem before 'cause top builds were different. With the advent of the new cc thresholds, our focus (supported by new items/skills) changed to a more melee orientation thus bringing some less used skills into the spotlight. Like orbit.

The thing is it is likely performing as expected. The problem might be it's enormous power: fueled by almost infinite arcane and with solid multipliers, orbit alone is clearing gr's.

But don't be fooled by our desire, as class, to be "fair" and aim for a equal balance among classes . Ximae was being sincere about the power of this build but don't be naive and think all other classes powers have been unfold.
Top barb streamers, for example, have being whispered by chinese players not to show the real potential of some builds. There are more things out there that we just are not aware yet.

The truth might just be: it is not as powerful as we think :D

A great 2016 to all and a excellent 2.4 patch for wiz's!
I hope it gets nerfed. I doesn't make sense that one rune outperforms all the others by such a huge margin. Especially since the detonation mechanic is probably not intended.
We could never trigger it before we had the sceptre wand to my knowledge. It was a fixed 1 explosion per second regardless of how many mobs were around you or how often you recasted it.


01/10/2016 12:10 AMPosted by ximae
I have replicated the bug on live too, minus unstable scepter extra esplotions ofc.... so this makes me lean towards a feature.

https://youtu.be/y-ffBKzk6aE (vid of orbit on live)


its not as savage as on ptr but im seeing more explotions than one per second on live too.

01/10/2016 12:10 AMPosted by ximae
There is a visual bug with the extra orbits when you use unstable scepter, but they do not deal damage, so dont do anything performancewise. Just looks cool and it is actually related to unstable scepter not the skill itself.


The visual bug that makes all those extra orbits is what is related to the scepter as you cant replicate it without it.
what i mainly found offensive was the notion that the set was the thing that was overtuned when someone else was using the same skill rune to achieve the top tal rasha clear.

Post nerf Firebirds (50/600) would probably be at GR 90 in comparison, so I really don't know why (beyond general insecurities and ignorance) some are completely losing it because of gr 88 clears.
01/10/2016 12:07 PMPosted by wage
what i mainly found offensive was the notion that the set was the thing that was overtuned when someone else was using the same skill rune to achieve the top tal rasha clear.

Post nerf Firebirds (50/600) would probably be at GR 90 in comparison, so I really don't know why (beyond general insecurities and ignorance) some are completely losing it because of gr 88 clears.

It's not unheard of in this game for one skill to have only one or two runes with damage that far exceeds the other options (see Mammoth Hydra)...It could be bugged, but it's unclear right now if that's the case.

Tal and DMO both have a 21x multiplier and both specs are using the same legendary multipliers and effects, so if that one skill is far and away the strongest it would make sense that it would be the top performer with either set.

And that's the thing, Firebirds was nerfed beyond 50/600 to 25/600 (unless I missed an update note). Judging by the update cycle this PTR each patch brought every set that went above around 80-82 down. See Firebirds, Marauder, Shadow, Might of the Earth, Jade, Rainment/Inna hybrid, Invoker, and even Raekor saw a downward adjustment (though look how well Raekor/IK hybrid is doing still...). Looking at that history I don't think it's wrong to make an assumption that DMO with 88 cleared will see another adjustment before 2.4 goes live. Of course final results at the end of next season will be drastically different for all classes as not everything is tested fully and pushed, but it doesn't change what appears to have been adjustments to multipliers based on PTR leaderboards during its duration.
What is the current firebirds clear on the PTR and do you think it'll go live as it is?

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