The Shadow's Mantle Set Improvement Thread

Demon Hunter
So, I'm very interested in seeing some decent ideas involving The Shadow's Mantle set. If you have any ideas of your own, please give it a go.

But first, let's address the current problems with the set:

The first, and probably the largest problem is the lack of ability to clear large groups quickly. Obviously this is a given with a skillshot based single-target ability. It's very similar to the Invoker set in that it's better to go after primary targets instead of clearing.

The second problem is the lack of quivers to accompany the main weapons. There's not a single other item aside from Karlei's point that benefits impale.

The 3rd problem comes down to a problem with the set itself. There's a lot of sets out there that (with a small amount of effort) gain 1000-2000% increased damage. But here we have a set that limits your skillset and only has a 600% damage increase. Now 600% is very small, especially when compared to other class sets.

The last major problem that I can see is the small amount of damage reduction gained by the set. Shadow Power with gloom is only 35%, and while you do gain a significant amount of life on hit, it's not enough to offset the amount of damage you're having reduced with this set. Natalyas hasa 60%, Hell UE6 has 60%, hell even marauders can get up to around 60%.

Now to get to the meat of the matter, the creative solutions. I believe that instead of buffing the hard numbers (minus the damage bonus from the set itself), adding in items of value to the set would be worth looking at.

I'd like to give a few examples of my own ideas:

1. As a SM6 power, in addition impale would gain the ricochet rune. And as an added bonus, it could state that Impale gains 40,000% increased damage on the first target, and the damage is reduced by 25% for each enemy hit afterwards (So if it did around 40,000%, the next hit would do around 30,000%, and the next hit does 22,500% damage).

2. Add a quiver that causes impale to cast Fan of Knives on hit.

3. Add a sword that causes impale hit the target directly, but it does half damage.

4. Add a belt that gives a random chance to throw an extra impale out when you throw an impale dagger.

5. Give the ability to dual wield 1handed weapons. It makes sense for demon hunters, lorewise and combatwise.

These are just among the large amount of ideas that I have, and I'm sure there's still many many more things that I haven't thought of.

Please! The demon hunter needs you!
6. shadow 2pc bonus 2000% , 6pc bonus 14.000% WD
7. shadowbelt - while under the effect of shadowpower all damage is increased by 100% (multiplicative)
8. shadowshield - shadowpower gloom now grants 70% DR instead of 35% DR, while under the effect of shadowpower you're immune to CC-effects.
My wet dream is a set sword+quiver combo, that would make spike trap viable with the shadows set.

Sword :
Normal rolls, with an added legendary affix : Spike trap gain the effect of the scatter rune.
Because that rune is very good and you can still run any element you want with it (by selecting another rune in your bar)

Quiver :
Normal rolls, no legendary affix but rolls an extra 100-150% damage to spike traps.
(numbers might be tuned)

And the 2-set bonus :
+25% area damage
enemies affected by your spike traps have 30% additional chance to trigger area damage

Then you have spike trap being not too bad on its own thanks to the quiver, and you have shadow's set users using spike trap to solve their lack of aoe. Blizz pls

And it could even revive helltrapper!


All S6 needs is a bit more AoE, They can't make the 6p bonus multi target, because people would only use ovepenetration and ricochet. They could bypass this like you did to give overpenetration/ricochet baseline, but i think area damage is a more original solution. It also mean we would gear for it, removing us from the all crit meta and by tying it to another skill (in my example spike trap) allow it to not be too strong since you need to setup for it.
That's a bit of what I was hoping to achieve with the fan of knives weapon.

However, I would also like to see some spike trap play. I almost feel like spike trap / caltrops and all those sorts of things should be tailored more towards a melee build anyway.

However, I do strongly believe that the 600% damage increase is just too low. I wouldn't mind the impale damage from the 6set being lower as compensation, as this would open more opportunities for more builds (like chakrams) to play around with.

However, a lot of the problem comes with the abilities themselves. A majority of their runes are super useless and have almost no point.
My main issue is that I can't use Karlei's, Greenstone, and Dawn all at the same time. The weakest link is Greenstone so it's not getting much use beyond T10. It'd be nice if we could dual equip daggers, and/or get a melee quiver.
Seeing as ShadowSix is essentially GrimSe\/er official version the devs should create a complimentary quiver to enable MfD:Grimreaper to do something similar to its Grim sever incarnation. or perhaps something that dramatically increases the range and effectiveness of area damage.
Blizz are unlikely to make any changes before the next patch, case in point was when M6 was grossly underpowered last season and they did not buff it until this patch

Whist s6 is underpowered it is still capable of clearing greater rifts in the high 70s and there's a couple of videos on youtube confirming this.

This patch i think our focus should be on min maxing i.e. working out a way to maximise this set as it currently is. With the other sets optimal gearing is very clear...i.e. which weapon, which offhand to use.

With S6 it is still very much in the open and the community has not yet done much in terms of calculations and testing...e.g. there are people advocating using a quiver , some say use a shield, some karlei some greenstone whilst others still go with a mace...whilst everyone is making valid points, no one has actually done maths to clear this up. My sense is to focus on this rather than asking for buffs which anyway will not be forthcoming this season...
small tunes on existing values and items should nudge it up better

1a) spines of seething hatred http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/spines-of-seething-hatred
- +75-100% chakram damage in addition to orange bonus

1b) a spike trap quiver similarly to sak/DML

2) divert power into s2 @800% / s6 +30,000% impale

3) re-work grievous wounds to 900% base & cost reduced to 18
02/05/2016 10:29 PMPosted by Alagos
Blizz are unlikely to make any changes before the next patch, case in point was when M6 was grossly underpowered last season and they did not buff it until this patch

Whist s6 is underpowered it is still capable of clearing greater rifts in the high 70s and there's a couple of videos on youtube confirming this.

This patch i think our focus should be on min maxing i.e. working out a way to maximise this set as it currently is. With the other sets optimal gearing is very clear...i.e. which weapon, which offhand to use.

With S6 it is still very much in the open and the community has not yet done much in terms of calculations and testing...e.g. there are people advocating using a quiver , some say use a shield, some karlei some greenstone whilst others still go with a mace...whilst everyone is making valid points, no one has actually done maths to clear this up. My sense is to focus on this rather than asking for buffs which anyway will not be forthcoming this season...


I'm just a bit disappointed at what little they did to make it a viable spec. Like dangling a piece of meat in front of a pack of dogs.

They REALLY should have added more quivers to benefit this set though. And more diversity in the abilities that can be used with the set. Similar to how M6 has SEVERAL abilities that can be used with the set.
I think everyone's a bit too harsh on the set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-qELKZrmaY
http://www.diablofans.com/builds/72344-gr-79-highest-impale-dh-european-season-5

This guy cleared a GR78 on EU little less than 2 weeks ago. He states in comments also having cleared 79, and was trying to get to 80. It seems he gave up though, because his profile now show his seasonal DH in full marauder set, But the point is, he tought 80 was possible, and looking at his time, it sure seems like it is.

Beating a GR79 on US, even with the worst possible time, would put you at rank 31 on the leaderboards. I don't think anyone can say that a set is bad if it has the potential to be in the top 100 of all players.

And sure, it's only one guy, maybe he got an extreme perfect rift after days of fishing. But it doesn't remove the fact that it's still possible to attain high rankings with this set.

Regarding his playstyle, it's a very interesting melee style. There's an absurd amount of toughness there that allows him to stand in packs like nothing and crowd control them with vault, only spamming impale and hoping for area damage procs. I'm surprised that such a "in your face" build is even possible.

Anyway, i'm trying my own cold variant, way more focussed on sniping mobs offscreen. Total ranged playstyle. My best is only 65 right now, but i havn't given that much effort into it. There's still optimization to be done on my gear. I'm sure i can reach at least 70.

Shadow's set has more flexibility than any other DH set. Sure, not every gear combination can reach late 70s, but there's a lot of viable options that can still reach 70. Like i said in my previous post, the only thing this set needs is a little bit more AoE. Giving it a lot more would be really op, if 79 can be cleared with a single target skill relying on a 20% RNG area damage proc, just imagine the madness that it would be with reliable AoE.

TL;DR : Set is underrated, not the best but still quite competitive and would only need a slight aoe buff.
02/06/2016 12:56 AMPosted by Omnyth
02/05/2016 10:29 PMPosted by Alagos
Blizz are unlikely to make any changes before the next patch, case in point was when M6 was grossly underpowered last season and they did not buff it until this patch

Whist s6 is underpowered it is still capable of clearing greater rifts in the high 70s and there's a couple of videos on youtube confirming this.

This patch i think our focus should be on min maxing i.e. working out a way to maximise this set as it currently is. With the other sets optimal gearing is very clear...i.e. which weapon, which offhand to use.

With S6 it is still very much in the open and the community has not yet done much in terms of calculations and testing...e.g. there are people advocating using a quiver , some say use a shield, some karlei some greenstone whilst others still go with a mace...whilst everyone is making valid points, no one has actually done maths to clear this up. My sense is to focus on this rather than asking for buffs which anyway will not be forthcoming this season...


I'm just a bit disappointed at what little they did to make it a viable spec. Like dangling a piece of meat in front of a pack of dogs.

They REALLY should have added more quivers to benefit this set though. And more diversity in the abilities that can be used with the set. Similar to how M6 has SEVERAL abilities that can be used with the set.

I know and i feel the same...and really the Nerf to the two piece bonus from 1k to 600% DMV was really uncalled for...

But having said this, I think lets move on and look at how we can play this set to its best potential because they really wont be making any further chages and its still early into the season
02/06/2016 01:40 AMPosted by Alagos
I know and i feel the same...and really the Nerf to the two piece bonus from 1k to 600% DMV was really uncalled for...


that nerf made S2 weaker than LoN.....
02/06/2016 01:40 AMPosted by Alagos
02/06/2016 12:56 AMPosted by Omnyth
...

I'm just a bit disappointed at what little they did to make it a viable spec. Like dangling a piece of meat in front of a pack of dogs.

They REALLY should have added more quivers to benefit this set though. And more diversity in the abilities that can be used with the set. Similar to how M6 has SEVERAL abilities that can be used with the set.

I know and i feel the same...and really the Nerf to the two piece bonus from 1k to 600% DMV was really uncalled for...

But having said this, I think lets move on and look at how we can play this set to its best potential because they really wont be making any further chages and its still early into the season


Oh, I agree. And I know they won't be changing it THIS season. But I want the set to be phenomenal for NEXT season. Recently it seems like blizzard has actually been working with the community to REALLY step up the quality of the game. I'm just hoping that maybe these ideas might see the eyes of a developer.

Group brainstorming tends to come up with new ideas!
obviously most sets are type casted where you pretty much can only use the offensive abilities they specify in their boost. You wouldn't use RoV without Nats, and you certainly wouldn't use Nats without RoV. The problem is that really one one ability gets buffed with the set. Impale is good, but you end up just impaling over and over. Being a melee build, the set needs to buff fan of knives as well as an alternate ability.

My changes:
1. Allow dagger in off-hand. No need for anything else in off-hand.

2. Bonus to fan of knives. Maybe extend the range, or damage boost.

3. Items that can roll ranged and melee damage.

4. Lower the cool down time of vengeance. But that matters more to every build, but it would help this one significantly.
02/06/2016 04:41 AMPosted by wolpak
You wouldn't use RoV without Nats, and you certainly wouldn't use Nats without RoV.


not sure about RoV without nats part.
LoN offers more damage overall (1.300% bonus LoN vs. 900% bonus N6 + F&R)

02/06/2016 04:41 AMPosted by wolpak
3. Items that can roll ranged and melee damage.


as competition to elemental damage? then there should also be min-max dmg as competition for elemental rolls (mainly on bracers/quiver/andariel's for multi-elemental & multi-range builds)
I agree with pyromancer on this one. I think SM6 is fine, people are clearing decent level rifts with it, it just takes more effort then our other sets to pull off and personally I think that is a good thing.

-N6 takes a fair bit of learning to pull off the game play right, and has high gear requirements but it seems like it's a little weak compared to the other sets now.

-UE is the absolute most mindless spec, you spam multishot. That's it. Maybe use a generator if you use FnR, but some people have moved to EW+SOJ, which requires even less thought. Still, the set is fun

-M6, although easy to pull off once the sentries are on the field and in firing range does require thought on sentry placement and and deciding if you should waste the charge.

-SM6 is a set that requires a lot of attention while playing for most specs, (I haven't seen that uber toughness one from EU) and requires a lot of effort for the reward. It is a fun set that doesn't have high gear requirements but demands a lot of effort from player input. I would absolutely hate if it became a mindless set like UE and M6 like so many people want it to be.

What SM6 is missing is proper supporting items, what we have now really doesn't cut it and there aren't enough.

Impale:
It has karlei's point which is actually designed pretty poorly. It's function is achieved and works well but the item falls short in a few ways. For starters, dagger have TERRIBLE, dmg ranges on them, this makes things like area damage and grim reaper fairly weak overall. They have aps but that doesn't help when you procs from AD don't happen to often and when they do they're weak cause of the terrible dmg range, and grim reapers "dmg split clause" makes the daggers weak dmg range really show.

We need them to implement some supporting items like quivers, belts and bracers to help the weak dagger out. Maybe some things to give us an increased chance to proc area dmg with impale, some items that come with a large inherent amount of area damage its self as a "secondary" primary. Maybe something to tweak grim reaper so it doesn't split the damage

Fan of knives
If you have the old sash of knives belt, you're in luck, everyone without one or playing seasons only has this weird clunky dagger to help FoK. That dagger has a few issues though; once again, it's a dagger that hits like a wet noodle with a skill that people are waiting up to 30 seconds to use. That is a total fail in design, the "nuking" potential of this weapon is cut down huge because it is a dagger. Now the whole stacking overtime thing has its ups and downs, most FoK runes have a CD so that lines up well, but if you want it as true AOE, all the waiting around will make you eventually hit a GR ceiling where the dmg from it isn't enough and the time spent waiting is too long.

This item should have been a sword, not a dagger, and it also suffers from not having other supporting items. I really wish the old sash of knives still dropped, they need to remove the 0.5 second cool down on FoK-knives expert and also add in some new items to help it out. Maybe something like a new quiver/shield that increases the range and dmg of FoK by 50%, or causes you to use two quick spams per click.

Chakrams
This skills items seem to be in a good place, the sword is designed well and has the quiver to compliment it, but it's missing other synergies. The skill does have AOE but the AOE is awkward to utilize to max potential at times, or its straight line AOE that doesn't feel like true AOE. I'm no sure IMO what to do to "fix" it or if it needs fixed at all, but some new items would be neat. Maybe some bracers like "+15% dmg reduction for every active chakram on the field"

Then there's the whole plethora of other runes available that have no easily usable support items tied to this set: sentry's got rucksack, spike traps had nothing because the cube is usually consumed, caltrops jagged spikes dmg is total trash since RoS released and disabled stacking/the skills dmg was never buffed. Maybe if they fixed jagged spikes dmg and stacking abilities and made it so Cape of The Darkknight doubled the amount of caltrops you could have on the field as well as retaining its on hit spawn rate the skill could be used for AOE. Maybe if SM2 were to give generators an even bigger boost "spenders deal 600% more, generators deal 1200% more" then we could use some generators for AOE/dmg support.

Again, I like the sets design and wouldn't mind a few tweaks but I would hate to see it overhauled to something mindless and one button spammy, I think the set just really lacks support items.
No more swords please, actually wish the weapons aimed at the build were 100% daggers, not like that weapon class is used by anyone else. Anything else slows down gameplay too much. RIP Chakram Build.

I agree we should be able to DW daggers though, maybe make a dagger set that throws a second impale on a second enemy every 3rd hit or something on top of a large IAS boost.

Gotta go faster :D
02/06/2016 02:20 AMPosted by Alukat
that nerf made S2 weaker than LoN.....


Well it's supposed to be weaker. After all it's only one part of a 6 piece set. It's not meant to be as strong as a full 6 piece set by itself.

not sure about RoV without nats part.
LoN offers more damage overall (1.300% bonus LoN vs. 900% bonus N6 + F&R)


N4, N6, and F&R are all multiplicative with each other, so it should be 1800%, more than LoN. And it has the CDR built in as well.
02/07/2016 06:22 PMPosted by SSmashedBros
Well it's supposed to be weaker. After all it's only one part of a 6 piece set. It's not meant to be as strong as a full 6 piece set by itself.


yet it's kinda set that the shadow-set is only useful when using Impale. They could have allowed more than a single build for this set...

02/07/2016 06:22 PMPosted by SSmashedBros
N4, N6, and F&R are all multiplicative with each other, so it should be 1800%, more than LoN. And it has the CDR built in as well.


N6: 1800% only for RoV, 900% for everything else (pretty much RoV as main skill)
LoN: 1300% across the board + 6 extra legy effects (RoV as support skill)

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