[Idea] Paragon isn't the problem, EXP is the problem

General Discussion
Greater rifts are cool and all, but I'm thinking they shouldn't be the be all end all to the entire game.

The GR's and EXP as they scale now only creates separation instead of bringing people together to play because everyone has a different max that they can or are willing to do

What if some magic number is implemented? Lets says GR 55 is the cap for EXP gained for clearing a GR. So clearing a GR 55 and clearing a GR 80 nets you the exact same EXP. The idea behind this would be a player could team and play with almost anyone and not feel like they are handicapping themselves by not doing strictly their max GR.

So a change to EXP like this would mean that other incentives can exist for doing higher GR besides getting your name on the boards, but yet it must not be the be all end all to the entire game. If the experience floor is brought down than there's no reason to make a change with paragon because those that play the most are still rewarded. The door just needs to be opened up to bring more people together to play without having to resort to crappy builds that can only do 70 or 80+ GR

So instead of playing a really lame build like LON bombardment just because it pushes really high we can actually play a lot of mixed fun and interactive builds if the devs can change how EXP currently functions.

How about giving us 2X or 3X more EXP for Torment regular rifts?
Then cap the EXP at the GR level appropriately, so people can play together and have fun with this game again.

Thanks!
Aquiring the exp is not the problem, no matter what you will bring as "idea" people will just find out best exp per hour route (be it 4 man GR100 or 4 man TX in 1 minute per run, or solo barracks run) and still farm / bot their way to higher Paragon, because it gives such a huge charracter power in terms of damage and survivability.

If the difference of perfect roll item and fairly goor roll is something like 5%, botted top Paragon level against a normal player gives you more like +30-50% damage, THATS the real problem. You don't need to be a D3 Lead Game Designer to understand this issue, but it looks like everyone but this guy is understand what's going on :)
I'm sure the designers are well aware of the problems with paragon. It's hard for them to do anything about it though without taking away what people, in some cases, have worked years for. What do you think people with high paragon would say if suddenly blizzard took away 5000+ main stat from all their characters?
02/12/2016 04:15 AMPosted by Kobrakai
I'm sure the designers are well aware of the problems with paragon.


I would not count on that
02/11/2016 11:22 PMPosted by Replay
Greater rifts are cool and all, but I'm thinking they shouldn't be the be all end all to the entire game.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. I would like to see GR experience cap at an equivalent value to TX. GR should be for testing the limits of a build, leaderboards, and leveling gems.

02/12/2016 12:26 AMPosted by Bless
Aquiring the exp is not the problem, no matter what you will bring as "idea" people will just find out best exp per hour route (be it 4 man GR100 or 4 man TX in 1 minute per run, or solo barracks run) and still farm / bot their way to higher Paragon,


Higher, but not by nearly as much as it is now. Try running a TX rift and checking the progression of your exp. Do the same at GR70 and note the difference. Add in the bonus of a full party, and those numbers get bigger. Imagine how long it would have taken you to hit para 900 running just TX. The fact that your seasonal paragon is over 7 times greater (exp wise) than your non-season, just 1 month into the season, shows how horribly wrong the current system is.

Edit:
@ Bless: Here are some numbers to make it more obvious. These are from your profile so I don't know how much you played before Paragon was implemented, or if you have seasonal characters you have already deleted (not sure why).
Non-Season
Elite Kills: 212,525
Exp: ~1.077 Billion
EXP/Elite: 4.6 Million
Seasons
Elite Kills: 23,872
Exp: ~7.867 Billion
EXP/Elite: 329.5 Million
It's too late. People won't play if they went from getting 2000+ paragons in a season to 800 next season. Same with farming 100s now, versus farming 60s next season. There needs to be progression.

With that said, I think they just need to cap GRs completely. Unlimited only works on paper, because all it does it make people play the best possible builds and nothing else. It makes grouping stupid because people run supports and if you aren't one of the 4 builds your SOL.

Next patch should implement a cap of GR100. As well as give us upgrades that will allow every class the ability to solo GR100 with at least 2 builds after getting optimal gear. This would completely fix solo vs group massive XP differences (you'd still get 100% more XP in a 4 party from the buff, but you'd still be on the same GR level).

This allows for better build diversity, kills the appeal of supports in groups, and at 100+ hours you'd just be looking to improve clear times at GR100 by further gearing instead of pushing higher. Then next season, cap it at 110 due to increased power and better builds. So on and so forth.

To fix the other issue... T1-10 needs to be completely revamped again. T10 should be the equivalent of a GR100, while T1 the equivalent of a GR10. DBs and Keys should get +0.5 per torment level, so at T10 your looking at 100% chance of 5DBs per elite, and 5 keys per rift but it'd be slow and hard.
02/12/2016 12:26 AMPosted by Bless
Aquiring the exp is not the problem, no matter what you will bring as "idea" people will just find out best exp per hour route (be it 4 man GR100 or 4 man TX in 1 minute per run, or solo barracks run) and still farm / bot their way to higher Paragon, because it gives such a huge charracter power in terms of damage and survivability.

[/quote]

I believe it is the problem because as of right now I can do GR 75 easily, but many other players have a different maximum of say 45 or 55 and because of EXP I feel like I can't play with them.

If groups of others still want to do what is efficient that's okay, but the gap will be closer for all to use fun builds and play with everyone!

I mean how cool would it be to use multiple classes and try out fun builds knowing you're getting max EXP and having lots of fun in 4 player games with others doing the exact same thing :)
02/12/2016 07:17 AMPosted by Tyrindor
It's too late. People won't play if they went from getting 2000+ paragons in a season to 800 next season. Same with farming 100s now, versus farming 60s next season. There needs to be progression.


They'll still play. However then the tone would change to not leveling as quickly anymore and 800 being a problem.

The "philosophy" now is that it be played in groups. They've nerfed solo in comparison to try to get people away from it. By how it's looking, next season at the same time people will be hitting P 3k and GR120 in 4man.
02/12/2016 07:17 AMPosted by Tyrindor
It's too late. People won't play if they went from getting 2000+ paragons in a season to 800 next season. Same with farming 100s now, versus farming 60s next season. There needs to be progression.

[/quote]

It's not too late and I think a change like this for next season would get more people playing as opposed to those that would quit over it.

As of right now with no changes we already have top people quitting like Alkaizer and Quin moving to HC
02/12/2016 07:17 AMPosted by Tyrindor
There needs to be progression.


Right now we have arbitrary increases in set bonuses that result in higher grift farming and ridiculously higher paragon (main stat) levels. How is that progression? Just because the number next to the grift is higher, doesn't mean you have gotten better, or that you 'earned' that higher potential. It was given to you through the most recent patch. Achieving the same limits as last season by playing in the same exact manner but doing so in a fraction of time isn't progression. You can't view GR limit increases between seasons and call it progression because they aren't the same game. They are totally different, and the bonuses are no where near what they used to be.

An analogy that comes to mind would be like taking your best time for a 1600 m run. Then you run the 800 m and say, "Yay, progression! My time was faster."

The GR potential for a Marauders DH pre-post the current patch is a perfect example of the 'progression' we have now. What we have is the illusion of progression through shortcuts and power creep and it's destroying the longevity of this game.
02/12/2016 07:24 AMPosted by Spades


They'll still play. However then the tone would change to not leveling as quickly anymore and 800 being a problem.

The "philosophy" now is that it be played in groups. They've nerfed solo in comparison to try to get people away from it. By how it's looking, next season at the same time people will be hitting P 3k and GR120 in 4man.


This is exactly the problem and it's all because of how EXP functions. Players play the most optimal builds for doing the highest GR possible to get the most EXP per hour, but they're not necessarily having fun with the game at all.

Go check out Chainer's stream where it looks like he's falling asleep on the keyboard from playing support barb.

This is where my EXP idea comes in so players can play together and be using fun/interactive builds where the EXP doesn't matter at all.
02/12/2016 04:15 AMPosted by Kobrakai
I'm sure the designers are well aware of the problems with paragon. It's hard for them to do anything about it though without taking away what people, in some cases, have worked years for. What do you think people with high paragon would say if suddenly blizzard took away 5000+ main stat from all their characters?


Probably the same thing I say when they invalidate whatever progress I have made when they push a new patch with some other form of power creep? Or when an expac gets released?

Sometimes you just need to take one for the team, especially when the reasons why you have such inflated paragon just end up breaking the game for everyone.
02/12/2016 10:32 AMPosted by Replay
02/12/2016 07:24 AMPosted by Spades


They'll still play. However then the tone would change to not leveling as quickly anymore and 800 being a problem.

The "philosophy" now is that it be played in groups. They've nerfed solo in comparison to try to get people away from it. By how it's looking, next season at the same time people will be hitting P 3k and GR120 in 4man.


This is exactly the problem and it's all because of how EXP functions. Players play the most optimal builds for doing the highest GR possible to get the most EXP per hour, but they're not necessarily having fun with the game at all.

Go check out Chainer's stream where it looks like he's falling asleep on the keyboard from playing support barb.

This is where my EXP idea comes in so players can play together and be using fun/interactive builds where the EXP doesn't matter at all.


There would have to be a heavy engine overhaul before the game could handle four people going ham with their damage builds in a pack of monsters, ignoring the fact that support builds packing a ton of utility and toughness buffs are needed to survive higher grifts at the moment.
02/12/2016 12:31 PMPosted by crisco
There would have to be a heavy engine overhaul before the game could handle four people going ham with their damage builds in a pack of monsters


I don't see how this is much different from what is happening now. It's not like the support builds are just giving words of encouragement, they attack as well. And by this logic, the game wouldn't be able to support 4 man TX rifts.
How about balancing the game so you don't need to feel forced to be in a group to "progress"? When did diablo 3 turn into a mmo... It sickens me.
02/12/2016 02:23 PMPosted by snike
How about balancing the game so you don't need to feel forced to be in a group to "progress"? When did diablo 3 turn into a mmo... It sickens me.


Fixing the EXP problem is the first steps to balance.
I don't get why solo and group XP isn't the exact same, group players will still have the advantage when it comes to paragon and the gap wouldn't be as high as it has been.

If you take a group of 4 players and take a solo player, all at paragon 1, all fresh 70's, the group players will always be ahead on paragon unless they stop playing because they can farm higher level content sooner and faster with gear trading then the solo player...

Groups will always have the gem advantage also which is fine
02/12/2016 01:32 PMPosted by BulkFuel
02/12/2016 12:31 PMPosted by crisco
There would have to be a heavy engine overhaul before the game could handle four people going ham with their damage builds in a pack of monsters


I don't see how this is much different from what is happening now. It's not like the support builds are just giving words of encouragement, they attack as well. And by this logic, the game wouldn't be able to support 4 man TX rifts.


Supports don't put points into area damage. They have to unequip certain legendary gems and roll area damage off their gear. If you think that they're doing this for any reason other than the lag these calculations generate, you're wrong.
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I don't get why solo and group XP isn't the exact same, group players will still have the advantage when it comes to paragon and the gap wouldn't be as high as it has been.

Because synergy, and an online game should promote party play. Solo yields a lot more exp this patch compared to earlier patches. The issue is still party being able to go that much higher. But still you get less exp per kill group than you do solo.

02/12/2016 12:26 AMPosted by Bless
If the difference of perfect roll item and fairly goor roll is something like 5%, botted top Paragon level against a normal player gives you more like +30-50% damage, THATS the real problem.

Exactly the level and variance of multipliers are too huge, and the base variance is even too great, which means base increase have too high effect.

02/11/2016 11:22 PMPosted by Replay
What if some magic number is implemented? Lets says GR 55 is the cap for EXP gained for clearing a GR. So clearing a GR 55 and clearing a GR 80 nets you the exact same EXP.

It will fix part of the problem as players will farm exp as long as it's the best and easiest source of power gain the moment levels are far between players will stop farming them. And then there's the whole case of the difference between maximum ability and maximum difficulty, it's shifting the main focus of the game away from what it should be.

Still, they are bound to make the unpopular move and make all the farmed exp useless, and the earlier the better. As it is right now, it's just gonna screw things over.
I tend to agree with Replay to some degree.

i'm no mathematician but I think the xp gained in a gr should be far less than it is. the xp/paragon curve slopes up too quickly.... or something.

tonight I was pushing my record in a GR just for the mere sake of doin' it and cuz no one else was on and I thought it would be nice to get some rank on some gem. (66 solo to me is a pretty high GR btw, I suck I know right? seems that is changing, even though I still suck, broke my previous record by 4 min....)

anyways I got tons of experience so fast, so many paragon levels quickly gained, that when one of my buddies finally joined he said, 'you went nuts!' and I told him, nah not at all! i'm getting a ton of experience just from talking to Orek, almost an entire paragon level. I'm getting roughly 3? or 4 lvls per tier 65'ish GR? That just seems too much, imo.

it is as the op says, experience gained too fast is separating players whether they want it or not.

cause now when I play with certain friends who don't have near the time to play, i'm just popping elites 'naturally' faster than they do, hell, surviving more, killing faster, it's way less fun for them. and i'm no show boat so it also feels 'meh' to me too.

like I said, I don't know the maths, but one GR is giving wayyyy too much experience points. PERIOD.

the only solution right now would be to play with my paragon reset I suppose? blah

they could implement a scale down immediately without taking anything away from anyone and try to save this game before paragon 2k is the norm. if it isn't already...

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