I really do not enjoy taeguk

Items and Crafting
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02/19/2016 10:14 AMPosted by RedCell
This sentence is key in that it tells us the Devs have no intention to make Taeguk easier to use. If they do change it, it will a change that will effectively nerf Taeguk for a variety a builds and relegate it to niche status.
Which is fine. It wasn't intended for how players are using it now.

There's plenty of gems that provide niche build/gameplay elements. I personally have no issues with that.

What I want to see is proof of concept of what the devs are implying. And for that, all we can do as players is wait.
I would be cautious of reserving taeguk's power only for movement/channeled skills.

Taeguk is so powerful, that all this would accomplish is replacing a skill on a bar for a movement/channel to maintain taeguk.

Rather than a DH firing a cluster arrow every 3 seconds, the problem will become putting strafe on the bar and removing something else desired since that would be the new go-to for maintaining taeguk.

Modifying taeguk would have to work solely in the realm of these channeled abilities, because in any other mutation its simply going to receive the same amount of hectic opportunity cost. It'll just be people setting skills they have no intention of using if the requirement of adding stacks becomes movement/channeled instead of all spenders.

That's why taeguk would need to only work within a very specific framework of skills, channeling, by design where the effect can't be carried over and persist across the maps by stutter stepping.

I'd advocate:

1) ramp up of taeguk to require at least 3 ticks of a channel in a stationary channel ability. This would naturally lend itself to taeguk having less stacks, with more power to each stack, instead of maybe 70, requiring 3 ticks to ramp up a single stack would reduce that ceiling to say, 20, and you could use this to add a slower stack dropoff rather than the 3 second all.

and/or

2) taeguk's effect to only affect the damage of channeled abilities

In any other form you'll get the same unintended effect of taeguk, but with placeholder spamming abilities on the hotbar instead to maintain taeguk if the requirements are changed to move/channel rather than any and all spenders.
After just dropping a painstakingly built 80 stack because the grift floor took too long to switch, I really do hope they change something for the better with Taeguk. Sounds like Wyatt might be missing the point though, but we'll see. Just give it the Endless Walk treatment.
02/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Shivera
02/19/2016 10:14 AMPosted by RedCell
This sentence is key in that it tells us the Devs have no intention to make Taeguk easier to use. If they do change it, it will a change that will effectively nerf Taeguk for a variety a builds and relegate it to niche status.
Which is fine. It wasn't intended for how players are using it now.

There's plenty of gems that provide niche build/gameplay elements. I personally have no issues with that.

What I want to see is proof of concept of what the devs are implying. And for that, all we can do as players is wait.


Why are players advocating that Blizz take even tighter control over what gameplay should/should't be allowed?
02/19/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Hippopotamus
I would be cautious of reserving taeguk's power only for movement/channeled skills.

Taeguk is so powerful, that all this would accomplish is replacing a skill on a bar for a movement/channel to maintain taeguk.

Rather than a DH firing a cluster arrow every 3 seconds, the problem will become putting strafe on the bar and removing something else desired since that would be the new go-to for maintaining taeguk.

[/quote]

Well, no considering he specifically said they would buff other gems to compensate. You wouldn't use taeguk when it's done correctly.
02/18/2016 06:13 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
02/10/2016 12:58 PMPosted by Kilika
I'm not sure i'm the only one but i'm kind of tired of being pidgeon holed into using this really annoying gem. I pretty much just worry about not losing my stacks for the entire GR instead of paying attention to what im killing. Is it game breaking? no just really annoying losing 84 stacks which takes almost a full minute to restack is super depressing. Now I think what a good option for this would be if you miss the timer that you lose half your stacks and continues to half until under ten which than it drops entirely. But honestly I think the game is in a pretty good state vs when it was first released and am happy with how well its turning out. Sure there are issues but I still enjoy playing.


Taeguk feels too necessary for a number of builds that it doesn’t fit well into. Every gem should have a specific use. Zei’s Stone of Vengeance is an example of a gem we think works well: it’s used by people who want a ranged playstyle, and it’s not used by people who fight close. Taeguk was intended to be a gem that was great for players who used movement-based channeled skills like Strafe or Whirlwind. It feels bad shooting Multishot into thin air to keep Taeguk stacks up, and we want to look at some changes that would give players other options. We want to avoid changes to Taeguk that would further cement Taeguk as a gem that is strong regardless of playstyle. We’re still working out the best way to address this, but if we change Taeguk to adjust it more for channeled skills then we would certainly provide other comparable alternatives, probably in the form of buffs to some other legendary gems.


Or using hota on the ground, or casting battle rage for no reason other than to reset taeguk...good call there, Wyatt, I hope that you buff several other gems up so that they can take Taeguk's place in many builds, and perhaps find a way to limit it to the strafe/ww/etc type of skills that you originally designed it for.
02/19/2016 03:51 AMPosted by Enoone
Taeguk is bad for multishot how ever

Just because you are unable to keep up your stacks doesn't mean it's bad for the build.

Besides, people seem to overlook the fact this gem has a really long buildup time. It makes sense for it to be really strong when it reaches full potential. It's not like you're having a constant 40% increased damage/armor all the time. You actually have to work to keep this up. All the lazy slackers complaining about the upkeep can go for giveaways like BotP which is more consistent and coherent with their lack of skill to keep this up. I'd really hate to see this gem nerfed into nothingness just because some sloppy jealous casual can't be bothered or simply can't meet the upkeep requirements.

If you want to address something that's vastly more overpowered and actually mandatory, check Bane of the Trapped. Of course, these people wouldn't even point that out, since you almost have to just walk into the rift for the damn thing to activate.

02/19/2016 09:25 AMPosted by Grumm
Why you like a gem that can lose it stack by server latency or lack of mob density, is a mystery known only to you.

Because it adds a layer of micromanagement some of us happen to enjoy. If you just want to faceroll while watching netflix without paying attention, that's fine, and I do understand this mechanics aren't appealing for everyone, but don't make up problems that don't exist just because you're too damn incompetent to keep it up but still want the juicy bonus you *gasp* have to work for.
Others have listed suggestions, so here are some of mine. The main intent of my suggestions are to provide options that give both offense and defense, without being overpowered.

Enforcer: Increase the damage of your pets by 15.00%.

Your pets take 75% (up from 25%) less damage. 15% of your damage is redirected to your pets. (added effect)

Gem of Efficacious Toxin: Poison all enemies hit for 2000% weapon damage over 10 seconds.

All enemies you poison take 10% increased damage from all sources and deal 10% reduced damage. (added effect)

Invigorating Gemstone: While under any control-impairing effects, reduce all damage taken by 30.0%.

Heal for 50% (up from 20%) of maximum life, gain a random shrine effect, and gain a Nephalim Glory orb stack (added effect) when hit by a control-impairing effect.

Mirinae, Teardrop of the Starweaver: 30% (up from 15%) chance on hit to smite a nearby enemy for 2000% weapon damage as Holy.

Smite a nearby enemy every 5 seconds. Enemies hit by Holy Damage are blinded for 3 seconds. (added effect)

Moratorium: 35% of all damage taken is instead staggered and dealt to you over 3.00 seconds.

25%
(up from 10%) chance on kill to clear all staggered damage. When staggered damage is cleared, deal that cleared damage as fire to all enemies within 12 yards. (added effect)

Wreath of Lightning: 50% (up from 15%) chance on hit to gain a Wreath of Lightning, dealing 600.0% weapon damage as Lightning every second to nearby enemies for 5 (up from 3) seconds.

While under the effect of the Wreath of Lightning, gain 25% increased movement speed and 25% dodge chance. (added effect)
02/19/2016 03:51 AMPosted by Enoone
Taeguk is bad for multishot how ever

Just because you are unable to keep up your stacks doesn't mean it's bad for the build.


You misunderstood his point- his point was that Taeguk is not as good as you might think because there is a large amount of DIBS already built into a MS UE build. So the added DIBS from Taeguk isn't as much of a DPS bump as most people would think. It goes back to the non-intuitive interaction of the various multipliers in the game.

Like I said earlier, the bigger benefit is really the toughness it adds (because of the DIBS stacking from the new legs in patch 2.4), the damage is nice, but less than Stricken or BotT/Zeis (true multipliers to output rather than being additively stacked like crazy, especially in a group format). That is also a bit 'unfair' since it buffs base armor, and favors STR/DEX classes.

It seems they will make it a true 'channeled' gem though and 'fix' the mechanics in a way that nerfs it for everyone else- I suppose it is a 'be careful what you wish for' datapoint as it interacts with the bliz devs.
Lots of good discussion. A few thoughts.

1. We'd like to address stacks falling beyond just the loading screen. It should be okay for Taeguk to fall off in general. Maybe I want to pick up a lot of items from a Gelatinous Sire. Maybe a friend whispered me and I want to take 5 seconds to type a reply with more than one syllable. If Taeguk stacked way faster then it wouldn't be as big a deal if those stacks fell off. I've seen suggestions that Taeguk only stack to 20 and the damage per stack scale instead. I also saw a suggestion that it only take 3 seconds to reach max stacks but it falls off as soon as you stop channeling. These are great suggestions keep 'em coming!

2. There's been some suggestions (to address point #1) that the stacks simply fall off slower. This solution is workable but less exciting because it cements Taeguk as the best gem for even more builds. Legendary Gems are supposed to have niches. I know many other gems (looking at you Bane of the Trapped) are also ubiquitous - pointing at other ubiquitous gems are not a justification to make Taeguk more ubiquitous. Let's move towards the gems having niches even if we don't get there overnight.

3. There seems to be a lot of support to make Taeguk work with only channeled skills. This is also a workable solution. If we went this route we would have to make sure non-channeled builds that currently use Taeguk such as HotA and Cluster Arrow) have competitive alternative gems.

4. Many people have pointed out that Taeguk is used for the survivability as much as for the damage. If we adjust Taeguk or make Taeguk channeled only, we would have to make sure survivability was still readily available. This could come in the form of defensive bonuses on other gems, a reduction of monster damage at higher greater rifts, or a combination of both.
Yep, worrying about not loosing the taeguk during the entire GR is annoying forsure, but i feels that i have no choice to use that gem if i want to do the max damage possible. Also, just a minor lag or whatever when changing map level can loose your stack, so you need to cast a multishot ( for exemple ) as soon as you exit and enter the new map in hope that you still have your stack.... Well for me that's how it works wich isnt really enjoyable.
02/19/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Lots of good discussion. A few thoughts.

1. We'd like to address stacks falling beyond just the loading screen. It should be okay for Taeguk to fall off in general. Maybe I want to pick up a lot of items from a Gelatinous Sire. Maybe a friend whispered me and I want to take 5 seconds to type a reply with more than one syllable. If Taeguk stacked way faster then it wouldn't be as big a deal if those stacks fell off. I've seen suggestions that Taeguk only stack to 20 and the damage per stack scale instead. I also saw a suggestion that it only take 3 seconds to reach max stacks but it falls off as soon as you stop channeling. These are great suggestions keep 'em coming!

2. There's been some suggestions (to address point #1) that the stacks simply fall off slower. This solution is workable but less exciting because it cements Taeguk as the best gem for even more builds. Legendary Gems are supposed to have niches. I know many other gems (looking at you Bane of the Trapped) are also ubiquitous - pointing at other ubiquitous gems are not a justification to make Taeguk more ubiquitous. Let's move towards the gems having niches even if we don't get there overnight.

3. There seems to be a lot of support to make Taeguk work with only channeled skills. This is also a workable solution. If we went this route we would have to make sure non-channeled builds that currently use Taeguk such as HotA and Cluster Arrow) have competitive alternative gems.

4. Many people have pointed out that Taeguk is used for the survivability as much as for the damage. If we adjust Taeguk or make Taeguk channeled only, we would have to make sure survivability was still readily available. This could come in the form of defensive bonuses on other gems, a reduction of monster damage at higher greater rifts, or a combination of both.


Please savee us all the trouble and please stop with the endless greater rifts and rescale the game back to the simple difficulties we once had. Were tired of old content playing catch up causing old builds to become obsolete and 3/6 classes being way better than the rest since their content didn't get updated. You wouldn't have to keep reworking old content if you'd just stop with the continuous power creep. If you consitrated on fixing the other problems in the game, like (skills runes) where only one is a viable rune and the rest are way underpowered (or cooldown is to high ect...) We would have a lot more builds and more balance.

Taeguk is fine in its current condition, people only want a change to make it BIS. We don't need more BIS items we need comparable alternatives that make you hate the fact that you can't have it all. We need more alternatives and less easy mode. The only thing this gem really needs is to stop the timer when you move to the next map as well as stop it when you revive a teammate. Maybe even add pause to it to pause if your chat window is up to type to your teamates

Incase you missed this in the ptr this is exactly how we all feel. We need a major stat squish with maximums on items, gems and difficulties.

11/24/2015 08:41 PMPosted by Mand
I've been playing this game for a while, and I've been enjoying the new set designs that started coming out a few patches ago, but reading through the 2.4 notes and development I have to wonder what the point of the new direction is.

When the new sets first came out, there was a lot of talk about using the sets to open up new playstyles. Skills that had been historically unused could get significant buffs to compensate for the power that other skills got from innate superiority after the balance tuning and better legendary item support. It was a great idea. I loved playing with Blessed Hammer in 2.3, as it was my absolute #1 favorite skill in Diablo II, and I was very happy to see it return to a place of prominence and effectiveness thanks to a new set and several interesting legendaries. The core Blessed Hammer experience was there, but there was also some new tactical and positioning requirements to really make use of things like the shield.

But, now that seems to mostly have run its course. Many sets have been made, for all classes, and now it seems that the design team is going back and re-buffing existing sets, just so they keep up with the more recent additions. I do understand why - something like the Blessed Hammer build is way, way stronger than a 2.0-based class set that hadn't yet been updated.

But too many of the recent notes, today's PTR hotfixes in particular, seem to do nothing more than arbitrarily and tremendously increase the damage on already-existing set playstyles without bringing anything new to the table. What, exactly, is gained from buffing Marauder's damage bonus per sentry from the 2.3 value of 100% to the proposed 2.4 value of 600%? What does it accomplish? What playstyle is now possible that wasn't before? What new experience does the player get to have that couldn't happen before?

The answer: your arbitrary damage numbers go up, which means your arbitrary greater rift number you can complete goes up.

But why?

Greater rifts, to me, are supposed to be about accomplishment. With these changes, any higher greater rift I achieve in 2.4 will be thanks to arbitrary power inflation in the new (old) sets, not anything I did. And it will completely dwarf any improvement I could make. I'm sorry, but even replacing every single item slot with an Ancient item won't compare with an arbitrary 6x damage boost granted me by the Blue God.

So, why? Why must it be this way? Are we really doomed to an infinite cycle of buffing the least-recently-buffed set, to catch up to the most-recently-buffed sets? What does that do to the game experience? What happens to the experience when there is a sudden, immediate, 10x increase in total character power as soon as you get that last item drop to complete a set? What happens to the feeling of progression, of accumulating gear gradually and improving both your skill and your gear at the same time? What happens when unending power inflation means that in a new season, instead of a 10x increase it's a 20x increase with that last set item? 30x? 50x? 100x? 1000x?

I see no reason why this design direction will stop on its own. There is no counter-force, because of the infinite greater rift count. But if we're all doing greater rift 100 when a year before we were doing greater rift 20, pressing the same buttons in the same ways, is that actually an improvement? Do we really need these long development efforts, the design and analysis, the programming, the testing, to arbitrarily increase the numbers only to lop them off with an abbreviated M, B, or eventually T?

When will we return to designing new ways to play, rather than pointlessly providing every single player a crutch to a higher greater rift every season?
1. We'd like to address stacks falling beyond just the loading screen. It should be okay for Taeguk to fall off in general. Maybe I want to pick up a lot of items from a Gelatinous Sire. Maybe a friend whispered me and I want to take 5 seconds to type a reply with more than one syllable.

People don't worry about losing stacks in TX. Taeguk is a GR gem, so picking up items doesn't really apply. Likewise, replying to a friend during a high GR (the only time one worries about losing stacks) is always done at the pause screen while solo or not at all during multiplayer with or without Taeguk. If one has time to chat during a GR regardless of the gems they're using, then they shouldn't be worried about losing stacks.

The biggest issue with the stacks is not wanting to res your teammates.

Thanks for taking the time to chat with us. :)
Any chance to fix things that are actually broken like the inna set before changing things that work fine but people don't like with one or two builds
I think Simplicity's Strength could be an excellent alternative to Taeguk for some builds due to balance of offence and defence, but it's damage is too low due to it being in the DiBS category. If it were changed to be an exclusive damage multiplier, then it would be a bit more competitive and open up some new build paths.
Glad something is being considered for this. I don't mind (and in fact enjoy) other gems and types of buff/bonus management from gear/builds, but I have begun to actively avoid anything that would use Taeguk, simply because I cannot STAND dropping it if I load a half second too slowly, etc. Feels heavily punitive, to say the least. Hate it. Won't go into other detail, it's been covered very well already, folks know the deal here I think.

Thanks for response Mr. Cheng, looking forward to some sort of change in the near future.
02/19/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
If we went this route we would have to make sure non-channeled builds that currently use Taeguk such as HotA and Cluster Arrow) have competitive alternative gems.


Please dont go this route, this gem while strong, I use it because of the extra layer of game play it adds and for how rewarding it feels to actually keep awake playing the game! stop nerfing the fun! I dont remember the last time I say o gee bane of the trapped sure is a fun leg gem, but taeuguk adds something to my build not just pure mindless extra damage, dunno for other classes but as a DH with a multi shot spec this gem is an auto equip just because fun factor and how rewarding it feels when you play your A game! I think we need more interactive gems like this one, and not just mindless and boring gems that just add damage or defense and you have to do nothing.
Honestly, Wyatt, I feel that relegating Taeguk to channeled only builds is somewhat of a mistake in the line of reasoning behind why Taeguk even exists in the first place.

Taeguk is a wonderful offset to the mandatory requirements of some items like the Bastion of Will set. Taeguk helps reinforce the notion that it's meant to scale up quickly for channeled movement builds. However, what about Roland's Crusaders? You spend wrath quickly and gain wrath quickly, as a result, you also build Taeguk stacks quickly.

What I see as a downside to the gem is that it takes entirely way too long to get to your maximum potential, and the duration of the effect is TOO LONG which helps facilitate Demon Hunters firing off Multishot into the void just to maintain stacks.

I think the aim should be more focused around allowing the stacks to ramp up quickly, but fall off quickly as well. As such, I suggest you consider halving the amount of stacks, doubling the effect of each stack, and halving the duration of the buff.

What this will do is help reinforce the idea that you're meant to spend great amounts of resource quickly, without hurting builds that utilize this gem that aren't channeled. It gets to a certain point where upgrading a Taeguk is essentially a wasted roll because you can only gain so many stacks before you lose them to area transitions, etc.

Please, consider generator-less builds in your approach to fixing the gem. I whole-heartedly agree with you that we should not be spamming a single button to do all of our damage, however, a Roland's Crusader that utilizes Taeguk will also utilize two spells when dealing damage as both spells depend on each other. The same thing goes for a Seeker of the Light Crusader. They're not just one button iWin builds, but rely on spells working in tandem to go completely generator-less.

I feel that an adjustment to Taeguk that reinforces the idea it's meant to be channeled only will hurt these builds and force players to rely on using a generator "out in the void" just to maintain Bastion of Will.

The best approach in this situation is to seek balance between generator and generator-less builds that allow diversity and gearing options with respect to rings, or any other slots that reinforce generator vs generator-less playstyles.

I'll agree that losing stacks during transitions is annoying. I also agree that keeping around spells just to keep up stacks is also pointless. But it's pointless for the same reason that spamming Justice as a SotL Crusader just to maintain FnR stacks is.
02/19/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Lots of good discussion. A few thoughts.

1. We'd like to address stacks falling beyond just the loading screen. It should be okay for Taeguk to fall off in general. Maybe I want to pick up a lot of items from a Gelatinous Sire. Maybe a friend whispered me and I want to take 5 seconds to type a reply with more than one syllable. If Taeguk stacked way faster then it wouldn't be as big a deal if those stacks fell off. I've seen suggestions that Taeguk only stack to 20 and the damage per stack scale instead. I also saw a suggestion that it only take 3 seconds to reach max stacks but it falls off as soon as you stop channeling. These are great suggestions keep 'em coming!

2. There's been some suggestions (to address point #1) that the stacks simply fall off slower. This solution is workable but less exciting because it cements Taeguk as the best gem for even more builds. Legendary Gems are supposed to have niches. I know many other gems (looking at you Bane of the Trapped) are also ubiquitous - pointing at other ubiquitous gems are not a justification to make Taeguk more ubiquitous. Let's move towards the gems having niches even if we don't get there overnight.

3. There seems to be a lot of support to make Taeguk work with only channeled skills. This is also a workable solution. If we went this route we would have to make sure non-channeled builds that currently use Taeguk such as HotA and Cluster Arrow) have competitive alternative gems.

4. Many people have pointed out that Taeguk is used for the survivability as much as for the damage. If we adjust Taeguk or make Taeguk channeled only, we would have to make sure survivability was still readily available. This could come in the form of defensive bonuses on other gems, a reduction of monster damage at higher greater rifts, or a combination of both.


A fair summary of the points raised thus far, glad to have the back and forth Wyatt.

When considering defensive benefits of a theoretical 'channeled only' Taeguk- please try to make it as balanced as possible for every class. Straight DR is probably the the most 'fair'.
Sorry for offtop, but make explosive blast that strong as melee arcane orb rune, because ao feels like mandatory and eb is like t10 skill

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