I really do not enjoy taeguk

Items and Crafting
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02/19/2016 12:20 PMPosted by Nesa
You misunderstood his point- his point was that Taeguk is not as good as you might think because there is a large amount of DIBS already built into a MS UE build. So the added DIBS from Taeguk isn't as much of a DPS bump as most people would think. It goes back to the non-intuitive interaction of the various multipliers in the game.

That's a fair point, and I do apologize for assuming stuff. Nevertheless, I like the way Taeguk works as an additional micromanagement element, and I really don't want to see that going away. I do see a really large difference between a fully powered Taeguk and BotS, for instance. Knowing I've worked hard to keep that bonus is very gratifying in the end. There are enough automatic modifiers they could buff or whatever instead of just changing Taeguk into "the channeling gem" just for the heck of it because someone cried about it being tedious to mask his own incompetence to keep up with it's requirements.

02/19/2016 12:20 PMPosted by Nesa
Like I said earlier, the bigger benefit is really the toughness it adds (because of the DIBS stacking from the new legs in patch 2.4), the damage is nice, but less than Stricken or BotT/Zeis (true multipliers to output rather than being additively stacked like crazy, especially in a group format). That is also a bit 'unfair' since it buffs base armor, and favors STR/DEX classes.

This is something I haven't considered. Altering it's defensive benefits to be more neutral wouldn't be a bad move. And yeah, I like the fact it works as both a dps and toughness modifier. Heck, I wouldn't expect any less from a gem that demands such a tight upkeep. As I said before, it might not be for everyone, but the fact it's different should be enough reason to not mess it up.

02/19/2016 12:20 PMPosted by Nesa
It seems they will make it a true 'channeled' gem though and 'fix' the mechanics in a way that nerfs it for everyone else- I suppose it is a 'be careful what you wish for' datapoint as it interacts with the bliz devs.

It would be very disappointing, but not surprising. These guys' repertoire of completely uncalled for knee-jerk reactions is notoriously extensive...
why not just inc the stack duration from 3s to say 5-7s. That solves all the issues and is a simple fix. Even with the recommended spec listed for the game it shouldn't take more than 5s to load the next map. This is a much easier fix than complex programming of having to decide on a diminishing rate for the decreasing stacks. Am i the only one that thinks in such simple manner or am i missing something critical ?
That's a fair point, and I do apologize for assuming stuff. Nevertheless, I like the way Taeguk works as an additional micromanagement element, and I really don't want to see that going away. I do see a really large difference between a fully powered Taeguk and BotS, for instance. Knowing I've worked hard to keep that bonus is very gratifying in the end. There are enough automatic modifiers they could buff or whatever instead of just changing Taeguk into "the channeling gem" just for the heck of it because someone cried about it being tedious to mask his own incompetence to keep up with it's requirements.

I seriously hope this gem isn't relegated to "channel only."

I feel that would be a significant mistake. =/

The underlying problem here that Wyatt is pointing out is that builds that aren't necessarily meant to utilize Taeguk are utilizing Taeguk.

Where I disagree with Wyatt is that some generator-less builds are just as rightfully using Taeguk as the channeled builds are.

I'll go back to my Bastion of Will example. It's just as bad that a build will use a skill just to maintain and build stacks as it is for a build to throw on a generator just to maintain Bastion of Will stacks. Forcing the gem into channeled only skills will just force builds into the "I must use a generator just for Bastion of Will" camp.

02/19/2016 02:15 PMPosted by royalgoddess
why not just inc the stack duration from 3s to say 5-7s. That solves all the issues and is a simple fix. Even with the recommended spec listed for the game it shouldn't take more than 5s to load the next map. This is a much easier fix than complex programming of having to decide on a diminishing rate for the decreasing stacks. Am i the only one that thinks in such simple manner or am i missing something critical ?

This is even worse because it forces a dependence for builds that shouldn't be using Taeguk to start using it.

Taeguk was meant for builds that focus on fast resource consumption and generation. In all honesty, the duration is too LONG in the first place. However, the current duration feels limiting because the amount of time to BUILD the stack in the first place is too much.

A reduction in the duration coupled with a reduction in the number of stacks required would be the correct route to fixing this gem WITHOUT undermining the entire reason why it exists in the first place.
Please don't change this gem to be a channeling only gem.

I like the risk/reward structure of the way the Taeguk works as it is currently.

The choice made to use this gem comes with it's drawbacks, which I accept as is. Except for the loading screen issue, this gem really rewards effective game play, and punishes the less skillful.
Taeguk is also one of the few gems whose secondary scale linearly with gem level, and as mentioned the only gem that actually provides both damage and toughness.

My opinion for changing Taeguk would be to reduce the "ramp up" time to max 20 stacks and make the secondary reduce the resource cost. Something different!
02/19/2016 02:15 PMPosted by royalgoddess
why not just inc the stack duration from 3s to say 5-7s. That solves all the issues and is a simple fix. Even with the recommended spec listed for the game it shouldn't take more than 5s to load the next map. This is a much easier fix than complex programming of having to decide on a diminishing rate for the decreasing stacks. Am i the only one that thinks in such simple manner or am i missing something critical ?


Yes, Wyatt's posts that indicate they don't like non-channeled builds 'casting into the air' to keep the Taeguk stacks up. Really it's another 'play it our way' decision. But if it comes with other gems to replace it for other types of builds, I'm fine with that. Channeling builds for the most part need all the love they can get.
02/19/2016 02:54 PMPosted by Nesa
Yes, Wyatt's posts that indicate they don't like non-channeled builds 'casting into the air' to keep the Taeguk stacks up. Really it's another 'play it our way' decision. But if it comes with other gems to replace it for other types of builds, I'm fine with that. Channeling builds for the most part need all the love they can get.

The problem with this is there exist some non-channeled builds that don't work by "firing into the air" that currently utilize Taeguk, and relegating Taeguk to channeled only destroys those builds.

For example, Sweep Attack in conjunction with Roland's Legacy reinforces the whole idea behind Taeguk in the first place which was to "spend quickly and generate quickly."

The problem here is the builds that "fire off into the void" and not the ones that are working correctly.
02/19/2016 02:17 PMPosted by Drothvader
I'll go back to my Bastion of Will example. It's just as bad that a build will use a skill just to maintain and build stacks as it is for a build to throw on a generator just to maintain Bastion of Will stacks. Forcing the gem into channeled only skills will just force builds into the "I must use a generator just for Bastion of Will" camp.


It is an OK analogy, but the opportunity cost of taking a generator when you don't want one (or the converse of turning something that wouldn't ordinarily be a spender into one like AW + teleport triggering the spender side of F/R) is pretty minimal (as is the 'ramp') when compared to say, a rank 100 Taeguk.

I get where you are coming from, in that maybe it should be re-tasked as a quick ramp, quick falloff resource dump supporting gem. I guess to me it depends on what other kind of 'niche' gem they come up with to supplant however they change Taeguk. In any event I avoid this gem in any build where I am not continuously spending resources- I hate losing the buff when I zone, and I hate being forced to 'stutter-step' (I avoid hexing pants for much the same reason).
02/19/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Nesa
I get where you are coming from, in that maybe it should be re-tasked as a quick ramp, quick falloff resource dump supporting gem. I guess to me it depends on what other kind of 'niche' gem they come up with to supplant however they change Taeguk. In any event I avoid this gem in any build where I am not continuously spending resources- I hate losing the buff when I zone, and I hate being forced to 'stutter-step' (I avoid hexing pants for much the same reason).

I would be fine with them supplanting the gem so long as they still tried to maintain some semblance of balance between the generator + Bastion of Will and generator-less + Taeguk paradigms.

In regards to the point you brought up with stutter stepping, the fix to this for Seeker of the Light by redesigning Hammer Jammers was the correct route. It addressed the core issue without destroying the integrity of the build.

What I'm advocating here is that they should be careful when redesigning Taeguk so that they don't hurt the few generator-less builds that don't involve channeled spells that are actually utilizing Taeguk correctly.
02/19/2016 02:54 PMPosted by Nesa
Yes, Wyatt's posts that indicate they don't like non-channeled builds 'casting into the air' to keep the Taeguk stacks up. Really it's another 'play it our way' decision. But if it comes with other gems to replace it for other types of builds, I'm fine with that. Channeling builds for the most part need all the love they can get.

The problem with this is there exist some non-channeled builds that don't work by "firing into the air" that currently utilize Taeguk, and relegating Taeguk to channeled only destroys those builds.

For example, Sweep Attack in conjunction with Roland's Legacy reinforces the whole idea behind Taeguk in the first place which was to "spend quickly and generate quickly."

The problem here is the builds that "fire off into the void" and not the ones that are working correctly.


I guess that is a design decision (and your opinion) at the end of the day. I'm just paraphrasing Wyatt. I personally avoid Taeguk specifically because I don't like that you end up having to 'stutter-step' to keep up your stacks, but if it were reworked to stack quickly such that I didn't need to sweat it when it fell off (as you recommended earlier), it would see more use for my preferred builds.
02/19/2016 03:06 PMPosted by Drothvader
I would be fine with them supplanting the gem so long as they still tried to maintain some semblance of balance between the generator + Bastion of Will and generator-less + Taeguk paradigms.


This is a little bit of a false comparison only in that you can use both Bastion of Will and Taeguk in the same build, they are not mutually exclusive, so there is no explicit requirement for balance between the 2 options you present.

02/19/2016 03:06 PMPosted by Drothvader
In regards to the point you brought up with stutter stepping, the fix to this for Seeker of the Light by redesigning Hammer Jammers was the correct route. It addressed the core issue without destroying the integrity of the build.


Yes, but this was dealt with from the mechanics of the set build, and might be hard to generalize. I agree that this is the preferred design approach though!

02/19/2016 03:06 PMPosted by Drothvader
What I'm advocating here is that they should be careful when redesigning Taeguk so that they don't hurt the few generator-less builds that don't involve channeled spells that are actually utilizing Taeguk correctly.


I concur it would be sad to have 'collateral damage' but if there are new 'niche' gems that buff those 'other builds', then it is a net gain.
02/19/2016 03:07 PMPosted by Nesa
I guess that is a design decision (and your opinion) at the end of the day. I'm just paraphrasing Wyatt. I personally avoid Taeguk specifically because I don't like that you end up having to 'stutter-step' to keep up your stacks, but if it were reworked to stack quickly such that I didn't need to sweat it when it fell off (as you recommended earlier), it would see more use for my preferred builds.

I'm paraphrasing the team as well, but based on their older philosophy (which would be the one to use to determine why the gem exists in the first place)

It's meant for builds that focus on heavy resource spending and not meant for casual resource spending.

They very well may have meant "channeled" spells from the beginning, but they never emphasized that from the start.

As with every position I take, I'm looking at this from the perspective of high level design. There are builds that properly utilize its design without resorting to channeled spells. That's really all I'm trying to drive home.
This is a little bit of a false comparison only in that you can use both Bastion of Will and Taeguk in the same build, they are not mutually exclusive, so there is no explicit requirement for balance between the 2 options you present.

The intent is for them to be mutually exclusive.

The fact that they aren't (given that the duration of Taeguk is too long but has to be that long to validate the absurd ramp up time) is what's leading to the problem that Wyatt's describing. Shortening the duration of the gem's buff while proportionally shortening the ramp up time is what will create that exclusivity.

Yes, but this was dealt with from the mechanics of the set build, and might be hard to generalize. I agree that this is the preferred design approach though!

I get where you're coming from with the stutter stepping for Taeguk. I just feel that shortening the buff duration will disallow stutterstepping by making it almost impossible to stutterstep to keep the stacks.

The way Roland's and SotL work though don't really rely on stutterstepping in the first place. The multishot example, however, does.

02/19/2016 03:11 PMPosted by Nesa
I concur it would be sad to have 'collateral damage' but if there are new 'niche' gems that buff those 'other builds', then it is a net gain.

Agreed.

All I want is for the team to consider those other niche builds before forgetting why they use Taeguk and hurting them in the process.

Roland's and SotL conform to the original design intent of the gem.
The problem with it being just for movement channelling based skills, is that it would have no use on Wizard.

Can't you just make it so the 3 second reset timer only starts when a player is hit, and indefinitely refreshed when casting spenders? After that, make it a 1 second timer? That may encourage tactful play, to avoid damage, and 1 second is fairly quick, if you're relying on heavy spenders for the buffs, and find yourself a bit short.

Problem with 1 second, is that stuns basically kill the stacks, without high CC reduction. I don't know, just tossing in an idea.
Lots of good discussion. A few thoughts.

3. There seems to be a lot of support to make Taeguk work with only channeled skills. This is also a workable solution. If we went this route we would have to make sure non-channeled builds that currently use Taeguk such as HotA and Cluster Arrow) have competitive alternative gems.

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While HOTA isn't competitive this season/era, the Taeguk gem is still nonetheless essential to the build. No idea what you guys will replace it with, but please take one thing into consideration.....getting the replacement gem up to snuff will take time. Running rifts for keys...running grifts to amp it up....takes time. Please don't get all crazy with the gems---I spend enough time on gems for augmentation....forcing me/us to switch out this once---ok-----making it a regular thing---not ok.

TLDR---Don't swing the axe on a bunch of gems...takes time to level them up. Think about how many players used 1% chances to get them as high as possible....don't flush it down the toilet.
02/19/2016 03:18 PMPosted by Drothvader
The intent is for them to be mutually exclusive.

The fact that they aren't (given that the duration of Taeguk is too long but has to be that long to validate the absurd ramp up time) is what's leading to the problem that Wyatt's describing. Shortening the duration of the gem's buff while proportionally shortening the ramp up time is what will create that exclusivity.


Yes, that would make it undesirable to try to use both, but they aren't proportionate DPS increases, even now. I assume you are talking about in a build space where they can 'assume' you are not going to try to jump through hoops to try to use both F/R + taeguk, and so balance around you using EW and/or some other ring/neck combos to replace what you 'lose' not also leveraging F/R.

That being said, given the dev historical misses on catching 'unintended' interactions, I find that entire line of balance assumptions to be rife with potential for broken-ness. Food for design thought though!

02/19/2016 03:18 PMPosted by Drothvader
I get where you're coming from with the stutter stepping for Taeguk. I just feel that shortening the buff duration will disallow stutterstepping by making it almost impossible to stutterstep to keep the stacks.


You know that someone, somewhere is going to try to do this though, and be mad about the output (or they will come up with a bot or automation to try to work around it). I can already see the threads on the forum complaining about it. =)
02/10/2016 12:58 PMPosted by Kilika
I'm not sure i'm the only one but i'm kind of tired of being pidgeon holed into using this really annoying gem. I pretty much just worry about not losing my stacks for the entire GR instead of paying attention to what im killing. Is it game breaking? no just really annoying losing 84 stacks which takes almost a full minute to restack is super depressing. Now I think what a good option for this would be if you miss the timer that you lose half your stacks and continues to half until under ten which than it drops entirely. But honestly I think the game is in a pretty good state vs when it was first released and am happy with how well its turning out. Sure there are issues but I still enjoy playing.


If they made it so that it loses 1 stack at a time or 10% of ur current stacks or something along those lines itd be alot better
02/19/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Legendary Gems are supposed to have niches.


Hi Wyatt,

It's interesting that a discussion of Taeguk caught your attention.

You mention that Legendary Gems are supposed to have niches but with Taeguk, at least it has seen usage even if some people have found that the mechanic is anti-fun.

Where's the love for the gems like Mirinae, Iceblink, Wreath of Lightning, and to a lesser extent Invigorating Gemstone? Even the newly released Boyarsky's Chip has now seen more usage than these long forgotten gems. Boon of the Hoarder used to be amongst them until this season brought about a gold sink.
On the topic of legendary gems, here's my idea:

Bane of the Stricken
Bake it into Greater Rifts, scaling based on GR level: GR85 = gem level 85. This gem is essentially required and greatly limits your choices when attempting to push solo or group play. Could remove 25% bonus and/or make it rift guardian only.

As primarily a barbarian player, this gem greatly limits build variety as toughness and survivability become the main issue, whether its the current meta build, or LoN builds that actually could work (albeit lower than rank1 meta) but eventually they just can't kill a rift guardian in any reasonable amount of time.

The biggest concern would be how this works with ALL classes, so at the least we could test it on PTR for a build or two.
Old Taeguk:

Gain 0.5% increased damage for 3 seconds after spending primary resource. This effect stacks up to * times.

Gain 0.5% increased Armor for every stack.

New Taeguk

Gain 0.5% increased damage for 6 seconds after spending primary resource. This effect stacks up to 20 times.

Gain Armor equal to the increased dmg percentage for each stack.

The increase in duration allows a player to resurrect an ally if they are fast enough ( I may be incorrect about the time it takes to rese an ally but basically make it one second loner than the time it takes to res an ally).

Dmg increase is the same but caps the stacks so it doesn't take as long to reach full potential. You will also notice a higher bump sooner in stack count resulting in a less aggravating ramp up experience for higher gem levels. It also keeps th same rewarding playstyle of taeguk for those that are "on the ball" and still offers a punish without being too detrimental to the point where someone feels like they have to quit if they die too many times.

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