DH Vengeance: Does anything compare for other classes?

Demon Hunter
03/04/2016 12:43 AMPosted by OldPro
03/03/2016 10:10 PMPosted by VitaKaninen
Do you really think that blizzard is in the dark about what their skills do?
Well...yeah. I do. They are most of the time, until some smart player figures something out that they never thought of, then they nerf it and say the the effect was "not as intended."

So thanks for that.


So, you are upset that I might have shared something that the devs aren't aware of? Isn't it better for them to know about these things?

How can everyone complain that the game is so imbalanced, and yet still want the devs to be in the dark about certain interactions? Do you like the current meta? Don't you wish they had known more about about it before it went live?

You can't have it both ways.

I honestly do not think I shared anything they are not currently aware of, and I also think that the interactions I listed in the OP were all intended, but are just not listed due to space constraints in the tooltip.
03/04/2016 01:01 AMPosted by Daoist
So, the first issue I have with it is the real issue, imo. No ability should be in EVERY SINGLE build you make. But, when there is an item that greatly buffs said ability as well, then its just super boring. In this case, it would be Vengeance + Dawn (cubed). Hopefully next season the devs figure out a way to walk away from this a little bit and open the door to other items for other builds.

If they actually get to fix the excessive squishiness of the class in other ways, by all means. Sure, vengeance is pretty ubiquitous right now, but this happens as a consequence of our defenses are just freaking pathetic to begin with. Even then, we can't afford to take much hits. For instance, with no other class have I been one-shot with 100m+ toughness in TX, yet being sloppy around molten death explosions can do it, while other classes can just soak the damage.

This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it weren't for the stupid abuse of unavoidable damage mechanics and nonsense like RD that we can't really avoid with skill. I don't mind 1shot mechanics, as long as they are avoidable. This is why I love Perdition and the mortar affix. It's stuff you can actually learn to avoid rather consistently, despite being pretty nasty when it does hit you.

And don't forget the incredibly stupid decision to kill Taeguk for non-channeling builds. Unless they bring something forward that actually fills in that toughness void, it's only going to get worse.
running F&R and CoE and deliberately omitting other choises for upping toughness. what do you think will happen?
name me any UE DH's who's NOT wearing Witching Hour or actually preferring to run Boar instead of Wolf? it's not like DH-s are trying to run touhgness setups.

There are options, much more than you think. it's just damage has a cap and people start to go deliberately glasscannon, to have that little bit extra. and then they complain that they're squishy.

you can gear up M6/UE DH holy-crap tough. you can run pretty good setup with monster touhgness, without actually a lot ot gimp.

UE6 4p + boar (even with Zoey), elusive (with Endless Walk), wraps of clarity, Gunes etc. It's not going to carry you into high 70-s (let alone 80-s) for sure, but it's not the issue that DH is squishy. It's that players are thinking that they are forced to go with glassy setups and fishing (well, players are actually forced). upto the point that any toughness easing setup is being frowned upon.
The problem with vengance is.

You NEED to have it!

Or else you suck...

But thanks for the passive aggressive nerf post.
Not fooling anyone dude.

An informative post wouldn't ask.

Does any other class have this!!!!..
I mean .... Does any other class have a horse.

Does any other class have a time bubble.

Does any other class use a mojo.
There are 3 defining items, Dawn, Visage of Gunes and UE6, which make Vengeance far superior. The benefit it gives is huge without the high CDR or 4pc set bonus which is required in other classes.

Wrath of the Berserker is close, but it has no supporting items other than IK4 which only gives 100% uptime. Much CDR and zodiac is required for high uptime without IK set. Either the 50% damage increase or the 50% DR rune is usable.

Akkhan Champion is the next one. Although there is a support weapon that give 2 rune effect, no one actually uses it as all the runes are pretty bad except the cheat death one. It requires much CDR and/ or attack speed with zodiac to have 100% uptime.

Epiphany is a joke compare to others. It has zero supporting items. There is counter productive items that stop the passive resource regeneration from the skill. The skill doesn't bring any damage at all. All the runes are bad except the 50% DR one. No way to keep 100% uptime unless getting CDR in every slot or abusing zodiac proc.
Vengeance is our consolation prize and honestly, we still suck with it. Has Vengeance put us ahead of other classes on the solo leader board, nope. Has Vengeance given us either enough DPS or buffs to be on the group meta, nope. So even though this is a unique skill that may or may not be comparable to other classes it has not helped. Even worse, it is now a requirement. This has ruined all diversity in all of our builds since every build that is quasi decent requires Vengeance to be used (talking GRs). Even more disheartening is that since we must use this skill, we also pretty much have to use Dawn in some fashion. So in the end, this supposed godly skill has ruined the DH class with both its reliance and a inflated DPS that lacks to address the most core problem that our base skills still suck...
TL;DR:
Vengeance is a great skill, and should stay the way it is, but is there any other skill for other classes that even comes close to it?

40% damage increase
50% damage reduction
300% resource regeneration
100% immunity to CC effects
Piercing shots
Rockets


Bolded ones are runed, and to an effect, a legendary affix that modifies the skill's use. The skill 'as is' only gives you:

40% increased damage
Immunity to CC effects
Piercing shots
Rockets


The underlined ones are the ones you did forget....

anyway, vengeance + dawn + mask gives too much bang for the buck.... nothing of DH can keep up with it.
03/04/2016 09:34 AMPosted by Mimir
Vengeance is our consolation prize and honestly, we still suck with it. Has Vengeance put us ahead of other classes on the solo leader board, nope. Has Vengeance given us either enough DPS or buffs to be on the group meta, nope. So even though this is a unique skill that may or may not be comparable to other classes it has not helped. Even worse, it is now a requirement. This has ruined all diversity in all of our builds since every build that is quasi decent requires Vengeance to be used (talking GRs). Even more disheartening is that since we must use this skill, we also pretty much have to use Dawn in some fashion. So in the end, this supposed godly skill has ruined the DH class with both its reliance and a inflated DPS that lacks to address the most core problem that our base skills still suck...

This is all true. Vengeance was the fix. Before Dawn became OP it was always known that DH did about triple the damage when it was active. Monsters just melted. But being ignored in patch 2.3 the class got left behind. The class just didn't trail, it was only capable of fighting monsters from the previous patch. And all the other classes were fighting monsters 10 grifts higher than DH. The issue was that Vengeance ungeared has a 90 second cool down. Without Dawn you always have down time. Every other class has something like Vengeance. Crusaders have Akarat's Champion. Monks have Epiphany. WD did get screwed with the change to cool down on Spirit Walk and this was directly the fault of DH abusing smoke screen.

So now every build requires Dawn. But we still fall behind th Wizard class because they have choices on mixing and matching weapons to sources. DH has a skill and there are specific weapon and offhand combinations that are suboptimal if you use anything else. We don't have defensive skills like Time Stop that buff our offensive skills. The devs had to change Thrill of the Hunt to allow us to actually use Cull the Weak and Bane of the Trapped. But this also locks up 2 passive skills. We lost out on Steady Aim. If you want that you pretty much have to drop Awareness.

Yes there are limitations to the class, but DH does have something the other classes don't. This is definitely build diversity. All class sets are viable. One set will always be optimal. But none of the sets are all that much more powerful. And depending on your gear, the overlap allows the best rolled gear for one set to be better than poorly rolled more optimal sets.

What I would like to see is some items added that allow us to mix sets and allow the use of our rarest weapons. Calamity and Kridershot are not even missed. Nobody complains that these items never drop. And if they are going to be as rare as they are, they should be desirable.
03/04/2016 01:01 AMPosted by Daoist
Vengeance + Dawn (cubed)
Vengeance in this case is primarily a Hatred generator, and only secondarily a damage booster. Competing for top spot in the UE6 build is the damage mitigation offered by the Visage of Gunes, and the Elusive Ring.

But even when Vengeance is down, most Demon Hunters, using evasive skills, can stay alive until it comes back up (fortunately, that's usually less than one second).

Vengeance used primarily as a Hatred generator so that we will not be required to use Cindercoat, cubed or otherwise, to get some kind of utility from the overly expensive Hatred spenders that rely on a crippled native Hatred generation system.

This type of auxiliary generating build was necessitated at patch 2.1. Perhaps you recall the following:

06/17/2014 10:22 AMPosted by Nevalistis
With Patch 2.1 around the corner, many classes are receiving some substantial revisions to core functionalities. These changes have equally substantial philosophy behind them, so we want to prepare you in advance for the kinds of adjustments you should expect.

[url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/demon-hunter/active/preparation"]Preparation [/url](Punishment) was creating less than ideal gameplay by encouraging the conversion of Discipline to direct DPS. The byproduct of this was Demon Hunters frequently finding themselves without their defensive or utility skills, often resulting in more frequent character death. To address this, we are reworking this rune to no longer cost Discipline, but have a 20 second cooldown.

While this change may initially seem severe, it has several major benefits we hope players will take the opportunity to explore and experiment with:
  • All Discipline is now reserved for defensive and utility skills, encouraging Demon Hunters to take greater advantage of these skills.
  • Nightstalker will feel less mandatory in conjunction with Punishment, freeing up a Passive slot in many builds.
  • If you choose to keep Preparation (Punishment) in your build, the cooldown corresponds with roughly how long it would take to regenerate the appropriate amount of Discipline (unless you had a large amount of Resource Cost Reduction).
  • Cooldown Reduction is now a more attractive stat, and this may open up new CDR-focused builds.

We know this changes builds and the gameplay pattern for some Demon Hunters. We’re also working hard to adjust other skills as well as introduce Legendary items both in this patch and constantly in the future in order to continue opening up new and exciting ways to play.

This change will soon be available on the PTR, and we hope that you will take the opportunity to try it out and let us know how it feels. We're eager to hear your feedback on this and other changes coming in Patch 2.1.

The following were my subsequent comments on that situation:

Like almost all things, Blizzard ignores player feedback on almost every fix/improvement issue, then comes out of the blue with some ridiculous "improvement" that makes no sense whatsoever, and which, in the history of the game, not a single player has ever mentioned. The most recent two?

  • The nerf to Kadala, saving us the tedious and repeated walk from her to the Blacksmith while spending Blood Shards. (her prices were quintupled)

  • The 20-second Preparation/Punishment nerf that reserves all Discipline for defensive abilities, so that Demon Hunters won't accidentally spend all their Discipline and get themselves killed more often than they otherwise might.

Sometimes, I want to use Rapid Fire, or Strafe, and don't want to use Cindercoat and Fire abilities.

Well, that's impossible.

Since Blizzard nerfed Preparation/Punishment, the only way to have enough Hatred to sustain Rapid Fire and especially Strafe long enough to do any good is to use Cindercoat chest armor with up to 30% RCR on Fire abilities, and all Fire Runes with Rapid Fire or Strafe.

Moving into the present, we can now add Multishot and Cluster Arrow to the list of abilities that require a Fire build and Cindercoat, except we have somewhat greater flexibility by being able to put Cindercoat in the Cube, or use Vengeance to generate Hatred.

And again, all of this is to mitigate the crippled resource generation system that the Demon Hunter suffers.

Discipline is still in a bad spot, because after the patch 2.1 nerf to Night Stalker, there was no way to generate Discipline, and Blizzard finally recognized that fact, so they included in the Unhallowed Essence set the ability for primary skills to generate one Discipline per hit. That's better than nothing, but hardly adequate.

Recognizing that the Demon Hunter does rely on defensive and evasive capabilities, with the Shadow's Mantle set in patch 2.4, they also introduced the Chain of Shadows belt, which removes the resource cost of Vault for two seconds after using impale. Limited, but better than nothing.

In the end, there are plenty of things wrong with the Demon Hunter, but it's in a much better place than it was before, and we have at least three very strong working builds, which should satisfy most play styles. Even with the bitter complaints I have about certain mechanisms in the game, I'm fairly satisfied with the present state of the Demon Hunter.
03/04/2016 02:13 AMPosted by VitaKaninen
I thought I would share some undocumented features with others, and since I only play one class, I wondered if there were comparable skills for other classes.
For the sake of Pete, wise up and share them with players via chat in public games.

In pre-Loot 2.0 Diablo III, guess why all the popular farming locations and methods got viciously nerfed.

03/04/2016 02:39 AMPosted by VitaKaninen
So, you are upset that I might have shared something that the devs aren't aware of? Isn't it better for them to know about these things?
No...no it isn't.
03/04/2016 03:26 AMPosted by highq
name me any UE DH's who's NOT wearing Witching Hour or actually preferring to run Boar instead of Wolf? it's not like DH-s are trying to run touhgness setups.
I use WH on one build, and never in the history of the game have I ever used Companion/Boar… So there's that.

Once you get to a certain point, additional Toughness doesn't help. A large amount of Toughness will keep you alive only through splash damage, but if you get a direct hit in GR 68+, you're a dead duck.

So there's no utility an additional Toughness. However, with additional damage you can kill the monster before it has a chance to hit you, and with additional crowd control you can stop the monster from trying to you for a moment while you're killing it. So my priority for skill distribution is DPS, CC, Toughness.
Nerf DH, they're currently dominating the total not half brain ET spamming + 3 babysitters meta.
What's really sad is that the only new skill we got with the expansion gets sees some use only in the 5th season of the expansion and then it gets so much love,its becomes mandatory.Way to go.
03/04/2016 03:26 AMPosted by highq

UE6 4p + boar (even with Zoey), elusive (with Endless Walk), wraps of clarity, Gunes etc. It's not going to carry you into high 70-s (let alone 80-s) for sure, but it's not the issue that DH is squishy. It's that players are thinking that they are forced to go with glassy setups and fishing (well, players are actually forced). upto the point that any toughness easing setup is being frowned upon.


Rofl... uwutm8?
Witch Doctor's comparative skill is BBV isn't it? That's according to Halcyon's Ascent, anyway.
Class___________Skill________CC________Increases___Resource____Auxiliary____Damage______Permanent
_____________________________Immunity__Damage______Regen_______Damage_______Reduction
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Demon Hunter____Vengeance____X_________X___________Runed_______X____________Runed_______Possible [Dawn, CDR]
Barbarian_______WotB_________X_________X, Runed____Nope________Runed________X, Runed____Possible [IK Set]
Wizard__________Archon_______X_________X, Equip____N/A_________S[1], Equip__X, Equip____Not Necessary
Witch Doctor____BBV__________Nope______X, Runed____Runed_______Nope_________Runed_______Possible [Starmetal Kukri]
Monk____________Epiphany_____X_________Nope________X___________Runed________Runed_______Possible [75% CDR] <<< Har Har Har
Crusader________Akarat's_____X_________X, Runed____X, Runed____Runed________Runed_______Possible [AoA Set, CDR]


Increase Damage also includes increased attack speed. Damage Reduction also includes buffs to armor, dodge, resistance.

Most of them require some sort of CDR to be permanent, except Barb and WD, IK 4 set bonus and Starmetal Kukri are both powerful enough to maintain permanence on their own. Thus BBV is the easiest to be permanent but also the weakest of the bunch, if you exclude Epiphany. Though Epiphany make sense in that it buffs your damage by allowing you to spam your powerful skills like WoL without worry. It's probably also the one that would make sense to use in conjunction with ORZ?
while I liked vengeance even in the last patch, I think it's kinda sad that this skill (for both defense, offense as well as hatred regen provided) is mandatory for basically every dh-build to be viable and competetive. Though I still like playing my DH it's a perfect illustration of the current state of DH. All those effects could be baseline and we still would be lagging behind.
03/04/2016 08:34 PMPosted by BeerLeague
03/04/2016 03:26 AMPosted by highq

UE6 4p + boar (even with Zoey), elusive (with Endless Walk), wraps of clarity, Gunes etc. It's not going to carry you into high 70-s (let alone 80-s) for sure, but it's not the issue that DH is squishy. It's that players are thinking that they are forced to go with glassy setups and fishing (well, players are actually forced). upto the point that any toughness easing setup is being frowned upon.


Rofl... uwutm8?


you can laugh, but it's an option. i don't have GG UE dh, but it plays okay (~P800, 2,3M sheet dps). The wolf isnt spectacular anyway. all it is is 30% additive damage for about 50% of the time. With all the additive damages most classes are running, it's not that much. tbh, i even think running Bat is more productive on solo, as you can time it for Fire CoE stack and you get slightly bigger passive resource regen.

while boar is more into extreme option, EW/elusive is very much an option.
so instead of going F&R+hellfire+CoE
you can go EW+Elusive+CoE´

you lose one passive and definetely some damage, you gain easily over 2x toughness.

for my UE
option 1:
F&R setup, with 3rd CDR (total of 37,99%) on gloves instead of VIT, with wraps of clarity, cubed dawn. typical toughness ingame (without taeguk stacks): 176M toughness (wraps ON, veng ON, with UE 4P ON)

EW setup, with 3rd CDR on compass rose (total of 37,33%), wearing Elusive (standard dex/chc/chd/soc), added VIT on gloves, and everything same: 503M toughness. (same, just after vault)
about the same sheet DPS, CDR and gained ancient ~910VIT on shoulders.

so that's a pretty HEFTY toughness increase. nothing will oneshot you on GR70-s. you can actually tank a fair bit. That's at 100% EW dmg (DR doesnt show on the sheet).
@highq and @Alukat

I specifically state the buffs that the skill provides that affects other multipliers, not the skill's own DPS/effects that only applies on its own.

Yes, side rockets benefit from Ballistics, but OP was referring to buffs you get by using Vengeance that benefited other skills, thus I specifically narrowed it to what the OP had mentioned.
Vengeance is our consolation prize and honestly, we still suck with it. Has Vengeance put us ahead of other classes on the solo leader board, nope.
Has Vengeance given us either enough DPS or buffs to be on the group meta, nope.
So even though this is a unique skill that may or may not be comparable to other classes it has not helped.
Even worse, it is now a requirement.
This has ruined all diversity in all of our builds since every build that is quasi decent requires Vengeance to be used (talking GRs). Even more disheartening is that since we must use this skill, we also pretty much have to use Dawn in some fashion.
So in the end, this supposed godly skill has ruined the DH class with both its reliance and a inflated DPS that lacks to address the most core problem that our base skills still suck...


Also in group grifts other classes still consistently outperform the UE DH. They have better mitigation and eventually the DH gets left behind trying to fend for himself. For the UE DH to be able to keep up, he has to loose a lot of damage in return for toughness and so becomes pretty much useless.

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