"Support build" hate?

General Discussion
I'm going to preface this with, "I don't play groups anyway!!" =D
I'm merely curious about all the seemingly hate surrounding meta builds and folks being forced into playing one DPS and 3 support toons. Posts raging about how certain sets or builds are only good for support.

I guess after playing Everquest, Asheron's Call, WoW, etc for so many years... it's kind of expected playstyle for upper-tier content. You have a puller, a tank to hold it down, a few DPS to burn it and then "support" toons to slow/heal/charm/etc. None of the party can function without those core elements. Everyone walks away winners.

What is different about Diablo so much that a balanced party doesn't make sense? Or... is it simply that EVERYONE wants to be the hero doing the damage?

Maybe I'm simply clueless about how it works in D3, having never seen/done it. I can accept my own ignorance.

Discuss...
It's maybe due to the fact that, idk, Diablo 3 isnt a freaking MMO.
They are patching D2 again so maybe they can rewrite history.

Whose up for a 7 support 1 dps Baal run?
That there is one build of one class that does 10s of times more dps than anything else can when supported. As a support, if you provide something like "effected enemies take 20% more damage", you are providing over double the DPS that a fully dedicated (non wiz) DPS class does. I'm sure the outrage would be far less if any class when supported by 3 others could receive the same results

Also, with the addition enchanting gear with main stats, it's a huge grind to fully gear a character. And since you will need a non support build to do bounties and key farm, you have to do double the enchants. Support and speed builds exchange every piece of gear, high GR DPS builds can be converted to speed builds with a few tweaks, and you won't have to caldasian's despair 13 more times.
Because Diablo franchise is Action RPG (Diablo 1 was much slower and more dungeon crawly, while the games got progressively faster paced over each iteration), not an MMORPG.

The characteristics of an MMORPG with the traditional party roles is not what Diablo franchise is. Diablo's idea of combat is closer to the side-scrolling beat-em ups of the old console eras. (You know, except it's isometric. And most old beat-em ups have a shallow equipment interface. That part of Diablo comes from the RPG roots.)

Example of a somewhat recent brawler game. Dragon's Crown(2013)
@ Diegosage - Thanks for the input and feedback. however, one part of your answer stood out to me:
I'm sure the outrage would be far less if any class when supported by 3 others could receive the same results

Let me explain...
I played a Warrior in Everquest for years. I was the main raid tank for a large guild. My primary role was to hold down the big, bad monster and keep it's undivided attention. That's it. My DPS was pretty pitiful. I was... a punching bag... standing there throwing insults about it's mother so it stayed angry at me.
Behind me, I had Rangers, Wizards, mages all burning the thing to the ground. THEY did the massive DPS> That was their job.
Behind them was an array of Shamans and Clerics. They did absolutely zero DPS. They existed solely to keep me alive. My healthbar would look like a heart-monitor bouncing up and down. :)
If they didn't keep me alive.... if I died.... EVERYONE died. Sometimes, that'd be 30-40 people at the raid.

My point is, there were clear-cut roles and duties. Not everyone got to do DPS.

It sounds like what you're saying is everyone wants the ability to tweak one or two pieces of gear and be the DPS dealer?
Again... I'm going to state that I only play solo unless playing with my kids. Same with Diablo 2 and D1 before it. I'm totally unfamiliar with online "group play" and the metas. That's what I'm curious about and trying to figure out. :)

***EDIT***
How about this... Someone explain to me exactly how a proper "meta group" works? What classes and who does what as you run rampant through the underbelly of Diablo?
The twisted sword: energy twister deals 150% increased damage for every energy twister you have active.

Wizards have a passive that makes their next spender free when you get a health globe, along with reaper's wraps (restore 30% resource when you get a globe)

Solanium spawns globes when you crit, so there is a dedicated globe spawner so that the wiz can cast twister without stopping, and the stacks from the sword go up to crazy amounts. If you get a good "wall" that you can get the twisters "stuck" on, you can hit 30+ trillions with the mobs tanked there.

Barb provides globes/grouping/survival
WD provides DPS buff/globe pick up
Monk provides Innas/grouping

There is a DH support build which can replace WD, however it's not as good.

There is absolutely no replacement for Wiz. they do the amount of damage 5 group's worth of other classes combined can do.
/nod
let me ask this then... If the Wizard is a MUST, so be it. Should be plenty of Wizards running around. Hot commodity. :) The group needs a Barb, WD and Monk to complete the efficient setup. Why on earth would a Wiz, barb, WD, Monk have anything to complain about? Are they not all winning?

Now... the OTHER classes that aren't a part of this magic foursome... I can see where they have some room to feel a bit bitter and left out.
03/16/2016 09:47 AMPosted by Woot
They are patching D2 again so maybe they can rewrite history.

Whose up for a 7 support 1 dps Baal run?

Sounds legit. 1 teleport to baal -> one kills all spawns -> one kills baal. Rinse and repeat...

It makes no difference at all. Any character bringing aura's of any sort is in sense a supportive character for the team.

The problem with supports in D3 is still, that they are TOO weak. They can't solo and they can't support a team fully on their own. THAT's the biggest error of Diablo 3 in regards to supports.

D2 is build around a concept where your skills benefits not only yourself but the team. Only the Sorceress is without any party boosts besides damage.
03/16/2016 10:07 AMPosted by Akiz
@ Diegosage - Thanks for the input and feedback. however, one part of your answer stood out to me:
I'm sure the outrage would be far less if any class when supported by 3 others could receive the same results

Let me explain...
I played a Warrior in Everquest for years. I was the main raid tank for a large guild. My primary role was to hold down the big, bad monster and keep it's undivided attention. That's it. My DPS was pretty pitiful. I was... a punching bag... standing there throwing insults about it's mother so it stayed angry at me.
Behind me, I had Rangers, Wizards, mages all burning the thing to the ground. THEY did the massive DPS> That was their job.
Behind them was an array of Shamans and Clerics. They did absolutely zero DPS. They existed solely to keep me alive. My healthbar would look like a heart-monitor bouncing up and down. :)
If they didn't keep me alive.... if I died.... EVERYONE died. Sometimes, that'd be 30-40 people at the raid.

My point is, there were clear-cut roles and duties. Not everyone got to do DPS.

It sounds like what you're saying is everyone wants the ability to tweak one or two pieces of gear and be the DPS dealer?


Forget it man. Youre preaching to the wrong crowd.
Look...all of this boils down to one thing in all games, really.....

Playing a support is BORING. People play D3 to murder demons and get items. These are not the kind of players that enjoy doing nothing but not dying, for example. Or standing around and casting a helper skill or two while someone else does all the work. You tend to feel like you're watching someone else play the game, and that's just not enjoyable. If you felt like you were doing something that might change things, but....As things stand 3 people are bored and one person does stuff....Except that one person is bored too. It's not fun to just stand carefully and them spam one button to cause slow moving twisters. A good 75% of the time, everyone in the current group meta is bored as hell after the first couple, and they're just grinding it for gem levels. The only excitement comes from trying not to die, and after that gets common place to you, your joy has died. There's no fun item changes to try and test, no build or skill variety, the math is done out on all of it perfectly. So you repeat the same actions with no variety or even substantial difficulty, over and over again. Few people can reasonably compete with the leaderboards in groups, so while there are some few who get to do that, and thus get some fun.....Most people are just grinding with no real hope of catching up to those top people.

Wall of text aside...No change, no difficulty, no options, not a ton of skill required after you run a few....No competition for most either. Where is the fun supposed to be, exactly, in these group runs? What is a support SUPPOSED to enjoy?
03/16/2016 10:07 AMPosted by Akiz
@ Diegosage - Thanks for the input and feedback. however, one part of your answer stood out to me:
I'm sure the outrage would be far less if any class when supported by 3 others could receive the same results

Let me explain...
I played a Warrior in Everquest for years. I was the main raid tank for a large guild. My primary role was to hold down the big, bad monster and keep it's undivided attention. That's it. My DPS was pretty pitiful. I was... a punching bag... standing there throwing insults about it's mother so it stayed angry at me.
Behind me, I had Rangers, Wizards, mages all burning the thing to the ground. THEY did the massive DPS> That was their job.
Behind them was an array of Shamans and Clerics. They did absolutely zero DPS. They existed solely to keep me alive. My healthbar would look like a heart-monitor bouncing up and down. :)
If they didn't keep me alive.... if I died.... EVERYONE died. Sometimes, that'd be 30-40 people at the raid.

My point is, there were clear-cut roles and duties. Not everyone got to do DPS.

It sounds like what you're saying is everyone wants the ability to tweak one or two pieces of gear and be the DPS dealer?


You are comparing (again) MMO's with an ARPG. They are two different beasts. Also, keep in mind, we are only allowed 4 players. If there were room for one of each class and each class was worth bringing you may have an argument. However, because of support roles, half the classes can't compete and each class in funneled into a single build and gear set up which is completely !@# backwards to the genre and more to the point THIS franchise.
03/16/2016 10:29 AMPosted by Akiz
Why on earth would a Wiz, barb, WD, Monk have anything to complain about?


Conan! What's best in life!

Do no damage to enemies. See someone else kill them for you. Hear the lamentation of the wizards when they don't get enough globes.

The shame.
Also, Diablo was never a franchise that puts the player in specific roles.

Every character is a self contained unit of badass. Multiple badasses can combine their powers for a tornado of badassedness, but that doesn't change the fact that each unit is a badass to begin with.

Every character has a kit of dps, burst damage, healing(shielding in the case of wizards), support(debuffs, cc, or buffs). Every character can play in the melee or at a range.

You are the nephilim. Not a walking stat enhancer. A purely support character just goes against the flavor of the franchise, anyway.
The word / idea of " support " shouldnt exist in an ARPG environment.
03/16/2016 02:53 PMPosted by Giasumaru
You are the nephilim. Not a walking stat enhancer. A purely support character just goes against the flavor of the franchise, anyway.


sadly the franchise goes against the flavour of roleplaying games where you the player are actually to make a choice about what you specialize in yes?

As soon as everyone is back to doing the same thing as everyone else stacking trifecta items and wearing the same set pieces...I guess things are just fine and dandy?
if so that's hilariously unfortunate............
[quote][/quote]

03/16/2016 10:07 AMPosted by Akiz
Let me explain...
I played a Warrior in Everquest for years


Thank you for bringing me back to my EQ days! I played necro in EQ because I played late hours when it was hard to find a group. The necro was unmatched at soloing, but added little to the group dynamic besides being a mana battery for the wizards. While in a raid, I couldn't even bring out my pet, which would normally be my best pal, in fear of aggroing the entire dungeon or zone. Do you remember having to turn all graphics to its lowest setting and face the wall so your computer didn't crash or lag out? lol

I've been playing D3 casually since release, and enjoy it regardless of the meta. I'm a flavor of the month guy, I like playing the classes that "shine the brightest". Most recently I played ww barb, hota barb, then static charge monk. This season I play ET wiz and when I want to "lead" instead of "follow" I play what I would consider as the primary support of the meta, a globe monk.

Of course, both of those builds will be nerfed the ground next patch and I'll simply move on to whatevers best. I guess you can label me as follower, but collecting the gear for the next meta build has always been fun for me.
03/16/2016 03:08 PMPosted by Avaron


03/16/2016 10:07 AMPosted by Akiz
Let me explain...
I played a Warrior in Everquest for years


Thank you for bringing me back to my EQ days! I played necro in EQ because I played late hours when it was hard to find a group. The necro was unmatched at soloing,


camp check!

oldtimers :D

had a druid and shaman - veeshan, home of fires of heaven guild.
03/16/2016 03:15 PMPosted by Silicon
camp check!

oldtimers :D

had a druid and shaman - veeshan, home of fires of heaven guild.


Can I get a TP or sow?

I remember kill stealing the Sand Giant in Ro for the jboots... I felt bad for a few seconds and got over it. I still appreciated a sow because it was still faster than jboots buff. ha

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