One more thing remains about bans...

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04/12/2016 09:23 AMPosted by Kilka
04/12/2016 08:23 AMPosted by Kiyo
I favor disqualification of the entire record, though I am sympathetic to preservation arguments where players don't know. Because sometimes we just don't know.

I co-lead a large clan, and we have a no-bot policy. We enforce that policy; we have removed players for botting when it has come to our attention. Thankfully the issue has only come up several times in the past year. But we're real people who play the game in our free time; we're not detectives and we don't stalk our members (stalking being counter-productive to the friendly laid-back community environment we aim for). Sometimes we just don't know.

The main reason I favor disqualification of the entire record, however, is that I believe such a move would directly challenge the existing social pressures to bot within the overall D3 player community. I've been playing D3 since vanilla launch and I've seen more and more players succumb to botting because of peer pressure in the past few years. Real people, nice people, doing it because 'everyone else' is doing it, and they don't want to be 'left behind'.

Then shouldn`t Blizzard disqualify the whole clan because of one botter and delete clan after this? I believe such a move would directly challenge the existing social pressures to bot within the overall D3 player community.


This is a ridiculous line of thought for too many reasons to even begin to post. But you knew that.
04/12/2016 09:44 AMPosted by Bushmill

This is a ridiculous line of thought for too many reasons to even begin to post. But you knew that.
To dq someone legit just because of a botter in group is ridiculous too. But everyone ignore that.
04/12/2016 10:22 AMPosted by Kilka
To dq someone legit just because of a botter in group is ridiculous too. But everyone ignore that.


It wasn't ignored -- I think the pros and cons have been properly laid out, don't you think?
actually just thinking that the leftovers of bot groups didn't get punished also is mindblowing

how can you guys deal with this? so much ridiculousness? i don't even, it's beyond my comprehension, doesnt your intelligence feels offended?
dem feels....
actually just thinking that the leftovers of bot groups didn't get punished also is mindblowing

how can you guys deal with this? so much ridiculousness? i don't even, it's beyond my compreension, dont your intelligence feels offended?
dem feels....


Oh, I don't think so. I looked up the bot forums out of curiosity (and out of my unhealthy joy in the misfortune of those botters, schadenfreude and all that), and there were a handful of posts of botter-donators who made new accounts, and got banned in the most recent banwave before even getting to level 70. I honestly think Blizzard is going all out in the end of seasons putting the hurt on botters.
04/12/2016 07:07 PMPosted by NobleTruth
actually just thinking that the leftovers of bot groups didn't get punished also is mindblowing

how can you guys deal with this? so much ridiculousness? i don't even, it's beyond my compreension, dont your intelligence feels offended?
dem feels....


Oh, I don't think so. I looked up the bot forums out of curiosity (and out of my unhealthy joy in the misfortune of those botters, schadenfreude and all that), and there were a handful of posts of botter-donators who made new accounts, and got banned in the most recent banwave before even getting to level 70. I honestly think Blizzard is going all out in the end of seasons putting the hurt on botters.


Still, botting was profitable this season, at least for those who enjoyed the help of bot supports in their group, got ranked and kept their rank.
04/12/2016 06:55 PMPosted by NobleTruth
04/12/2016 10:22 AMPosted by Kilka
To dq someone legit just because of a botter in group is ridiculous too. But everyone ignore that.


It wasn't ignored -- I think the pros and cons have been properly laid out, don't you think?
Yeah, nice pro - legit player benefitted from botter and must be punished. But everyone close his eyes that they did benefitted from botters too - in a very small part, say 0.00001 paragon they gained when they joined a public game with botter in group. Since no limits of benefit were set, and most ppl vote for zero tolerance, everyone must be dqed from ladder.
04/12/2016 07:47 PMPosted by Kilka
04/12/2016 06:55 PMPosted by NobleTruth
...

It wasn't ignored -- I think the pros and cons have been properly laid out, don't you think?
Yeah, nice pro - legit player benefitted from botter and must be punished. But everyone close his eyes that they did benefitted from botters too - in a very small part, say 0.00001 paragon they gained when they joined a public game with botter in group. Since no limits of benefit were set, and most ppl vote for zero tolerance, everyone must be dqed from ladder.

not me, so rank 1~1000 for me, gg tks, cya
I feel like Bots have already had enough of a negative effect on the player base that punishing even more people by removing them from the LB is just spreading more of the negative effect of the botters..
Not to mention we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place if Blizzard would have done something about this 3 or more seasons ago when it started becoming very obvious there was a botting issue in the first place....

Besides its already pretty well known what people were botting for anyway.. NOT for power or Paragon but for Keys so they could farm paragon more efficiently.. So its not like just playing with a botter was going to mean you were being carried. You was just playing with people who were able to get ALOT more done with the time they did actually play.

Just leave it be and hope Blizzard learns from all this and starts making this a regular thing from the START of season and throughout so it NEVER gets like this again. But somehow i feel like after this season ends and the next begins it will be another god knows how long and how bad the next botting issue becomes before they do anything about it again which is the biggest issue IMO.. Letting something like this get so out of hand to the point it was that it has such widespread effects instead of being proactive and keeping these things in check at all times and not just when it gets so bad.
04/12/2016 07:47 PMPosted by Kilka
Yeah, nice pro - legit player benefitted from botter and must be punished. But everyone close his eyes that they did benefitted from botters too - in a very small part, say 0.00001 paragon they gained when they joined a public game with botter in group. Since no limits of benefit were set, and most ppl vote for zero tolerance, everyone must be dqed from ladder.


You have been arguing logical extremes -- a fallacious way to argue. Only 5-year olds and terrorists make consistent, relevant yet preposterous and untenable positions.

So here's the question are you -- are you a 5-year old, or a ... ?
You guys ever hear of playing with ppl from communities? Say you play with this team for an hour clear gr102 how would you know that 1 person was a botter? Lol as for the 1 awkward person in leaderboards u do realize that if you got a record with a team and the rest of the team did a higher gr without you that it would have the same outcome as the rest of the team being banned?
This logic makes no sense to me. It's like saying you were farming gem levels with a botter from communities so we're going to have to take levels away from your gems oh and since those were augmented on your gear we need to strip you from your solo records on leaderboards as well lol. Oooh you did xp farming with a botter gonna have to remove some paragons now too!
04/12/2016 08:29 PMPosted by NobleTruth
logical extremes


04/12/2016 08:29 PMPosted by NobleTruth
Only 5-year olds and terrorists


lol, well done, sir!
04/13/2016 03:55 AMPosted by ZeROxREQUiEM
This logic makes no sense to me. It's like saying you were farming gem levels with a botter from communities so we're going to have to take levels away from your gems oh and since those were augmented on your gear we need to strip you from your solo records on leaderboards as well lol. Oooh you did xp farming with a botter gonna have to remove some paragons now too!


Leaderboard records is something else entirely. If they can do it again without botters in the party of course they can compete again. If they depended on the botters, then they deservedly can't get to the position again. Easy as that.
04/12/2016 09:23 AMPosted by Kilka
Then shouldn`t Blizzard disqualify the whole clan because of one botter and delete clan after this? I believe such a move would directly challenge the existing social pressures to bot within the overall D3 player community.

Logical fallacies have the unfortunate effect of weakening one's defense of a specific position, though that position may otherwise be legitimate, if the fallacy is detected. Your extremes do a disservice to your position on the topic.

Demonlord makes a good argument, in contrast.

04/12/2016 08:22 PMPosted by Demonlord
I feel like Bots have already had enough of a negative effect on the player base that punishing even more people by removing them from the LB is just spreading more of the negative effect of the botters..

If Blizzard continues to ban botters, it would be the most effective challenge to the social pressures to bot, and I would be content in leaving the records on the ladder. I can see a negative social impact on grift communities with the removal of all records. People already behave in asinine ways when a player joins a group and is under para, or is running the 'wrong' skills, or lacks the 'right' gear. Joining a public group just to be drilled on arrival for yet another thing would be an unfortunate outcome, yet some hardcore players would do it.

04/12/2016 08:22 PMPosted by Demonlord
Besides its already pretty well known what people were botting for anyway.. NOT for power or Paragon but for Keys so they could farm paragon more efficiently..

No, some people were still botting for paragon. Low level grifts, on repeat. It's not as efficient as a human grifting in high tiers but it still provided a net gain in levels and gear.
Fairness aside, once you start making exceptions for one or two cases, it will grow.
If this was a matter of life and death, the exceptions are important to ensure that no one (or as few as possible) gets left out.

This is a video game where the real life consequence is little (at least directly). I don't think there's a way to make exceptions unless we have a clear rule or standard, which we lack and anything we come up with here will likely be arbitrary.

In the absence of clear standard, I would say be conservative and remove them all.
One more adjustment Blizz before the season ends :PPP
Overall, the Diablo community is filled with honest and dedicated players. For those that suddenly experienced their teammates disappearing, it's already a sobering situation to realize a friend or clan mate you trusted wasn't playing fair.

That said, this is the first time we’ve used this particular approach. We’re constantly monitoring the results of our account actions to ensure that the process remains effective as both punishment and a deterrent for behavior that is against our Terms of Use. We may change our methods in the future. The bottom line is that if you Play Nice, Play Fair, you won’t ever need to worry about the status of your account or your leader board records. :)
04/14/2016 11:08 AMPosted by Nevalistis
it's already a sobering situation to realize a friend or clan mate you trusted wasn't playing fair.

it's a sobering situation to realize the best game designer wasn't here anymore...
04/14/2016 11:08 AMPosted by Nevalistis
Overall, the Diablo community is filled with honest and dedicated players. For those that suddenly experienced their teammates disappearing, it's already a sobering situation to realize a friend or clan mate you trusted wasn't playing fair.

That said, this is the first time we’ve used this particular approach. We’re constantly monitoring the results of our account actions to ensure that the process remains effective as both punishment and a deterrent for behavior that is against our Terms of Use. We may change our methods in the future. The bottom line is that if you Play Nice, Play Fair, you won’t ever need to worry about the status of your account or your leader board records. :)


I agree with that. A lot of people don't even know their teammates are cheaters. Like me I play with random organized groups. If I were to be removed because one guy ran a bot a couple times I would not be very happy.

We see lots of unorganized groups anyway. Go to page 2. We see that the top wizards play with different groups of zdps characters and brings them on the leaderboards.

I personally think there should be 1000 teams on the leaderboards. As long as one person is different, that is considered a new team and will get a new rank. Your top record will always be displayed, this way the top team holds number 1 not 1-4.

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