Discuss: Clean up fragmented leaderboard entries?

General Discussion
Finally a banwave! I think many people got the message, and I guess most of us are grateful for Blizzard showing some activity on that front for a first time in over a year (regarding botting, that is). I don't want to rain on everyone's parade now, but while this is a hot topic due to this recent event, I think it's time to discuss a related issue.

We see a lot of fragmented leaderboard entries - where one, two, or three people of a certain team have been banned, but the record prevails as legit players of those teams got to keep their record. To make this crystal clear: innocent until proven guilty. They were not "found guilty" of any cheating charges, and I don't want to insinuate otherwise. Nothing should happen to their account. However, the specific record was earned with the help of at least one "convicted cheater", so why do they get to keep it? The season is still going to last for at least another 2 or 3 weeks. Everyone can still get a high record if they're starting to push today. However, there's a huge mountain to climb for many people in 4 player right now because of those fragmented records.

Let's take a look at the US seasonal 4 player rankings: you need a GR113 to reach the top, and a reasonably quick GR110 to get into top 10; a very fast GR107 for top 100. If Blizzard were to strip all group records that were achieved with at least one botter, a fast GR110 might be enough to claim rank 1, any GR109 would put you in top 10, and for top 100 you'd probably need something like 105+ or so. Overall, about two tiers less, which makes a huge difference at that level.

Some people say (I read this on Reddit a lot) that it would "punish the group members who didn't know anything". First of all, let me be clear that I want nothing to happen to their accounts - only the record in question should be stripped. Second, many of them admitted that they knew their group members were botting (and many of them were botting themselves, but the banwave just didn't catch them). The analogy here is a relay race at the Olympics: if any of your team members gets caught for doping, the entire team loses its medals. The team gets disqualified, and in that case the team members oftentimes really don't know about the doping. But the record was achieved in part by illegal means, and as such the entire record is invalid.

Leaderboard records in Diablo should be no different, for the matter of fairness.

Thoughts?
+1

Doing this will encourage people NOT to play with / taking advantage of cheaters in the future
Well done Blizzard. Please make this a habit.
+1. Remove all records which have been attained by cheaters.

It's pathetic to see 4-man records with only one name, and -surprise surprise- some of them have been those saying that botting doesn't affect normal players.

We should also start reporting comments on posters supporting/condoning botting so that Blizzard can look into their accounts.
Most of them knew their friends are botting but they still played with them. Supporting botters by playing with them is bad.
03/29/2016 05:48 AMPosted by Pe3eWe3e
Most of them knew their friends are botting but they still played with them. Supporting botters by playing with them is bad.

Nah man, look .. I'm sure if you think about it, you'll realize it's not as easy as that. By this logic one should ditch one's notorious jaywalking friend because he's doing something that's against the rules. He's the one jaywalking, and so he should be the one to be ready to take the consequences if something happens.
What would be accomplished by such a "clean up"?

The people at these leaderboards if bot users or not, will not be caught by the average joe like us. We don´t invest their time, we don´t play their builds or have the will and help by friends to feed us xp shrines, keys & stuff.

Therefore, even if you remove the bot parties, you will still not be able to compete, if you play legit. It´s an illusion and why the whole ladder ranking is so pointless.

You better worry about other things OP, leaderboards at online games are never for the average guy, you must be a cheater or carried to compete.

Bot users are not the issue, it´s the system that rewards people for breaking the rules. There simply is no single player ladder, where only you decide how high you climb. Even the one player ladder is flawed, as people got carried in 4 player games.

Want to remove all of those from the ladder, then be my guest. But it´s not going to happen, therefore that whole "yay bot users are gone" is a silly movement, as the leaderboards will still be broken, with or without the bots.
Agreed. Any achievements earned in the company of cheaters should be stripped.
And where to draw the line? Sure for the top it's pretty clear they can't claim that they didn't know, but after that it becomes pretty vague real fast.

Got a new record with friends of friends you didn't even know before? Even if it's on the lower half of the leaderboard. Or even party achievements gained in pub bounty runs?

For a system like this to work it has to be something that can be automated, blizz will never do it manually, probably not even for a game with monthly subscription let alone for one without.

Just doing it for all will punish way more people not knowing, then it will the top100 who did know. And chances are, that since the problem was so widespread, it would probably cost you a few records/achievements as well.

And personally i wouldn't care either, but lot's of other people will and generate massive support load even if it's about something that doesn't even matter. People got stuff taken away from them and they'll be furious no matter how small.
03/29/2016 03:54 AMPosted by Light
+1. Remove all records which have been attained by cheaters.

It's pathetic to see 4-man records with only one name, and -surprise surprise- some of them have been those saying that botting doesn't affect normal players.

We should also start reporting comments on posters supporting/condoning botting so that Blizzard can look into their accounts.


does it affect normal play though?
personally i am against botting, but to say it affects normal players is exaggeration. grift leaderboards is considered a "competitive" aspect of the game. one which not everyone shares in or cares about. there are many that just want to play and have fun. those people likely could care less if you bot or not because truthfully it doesnt affect them. there is no economy in this game for botting to affect so the ONLY thing botting will do is displease those looking for competitive grinding (i.e not normal players).

03/29/2016 03:03 AMPosted by Bagstone
Thoughts?


i agree that blizzard has a responsibility to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards. where if the leaderboard is a "party" board for, as example, 4 players. 1 player is found cheating and then gets banned leaving 3 on the board. the party specification for that board is no longer met and the record set by the team becomes voided.

after this ban wave blizzard has the responsibility of going through and removing all invalid entries.
while i agree and doing so will place my team higher in rank however as the TOS reads any account found cheating will be ban only. I m afraid for Bliz to ban the whole Team regardless of any one in the team has cheat or not may result with a law suit.
Just imo.
03/29/2016 07:22 AMPosted by bjornh
03/29/2016 05:48 AMPosted by Pe3eWe3e
Most of them knew their friends are botting but they still played with them. Supporting botters by playing with them is bad.

Nah man, look .. I'm sure if you think about it, you'll realize it's not as easy as that. By this logic one should ditch one's notorious jaywalking friend because he's doing something that's against the rules. He's the one jaywalking, and so he should be the one to be ready to take the consequences if something happens.


I think I know what you are trying to say, but I think your analogy is flawed. You aren't Jaywalking with your friend, so you shouldn't have to face the consequences. But Jaywalking is not a group event, if you were jaywalking together then obviously you would have to also face the consequences.

A better analogy would be if you were in a group, let's say a group relay race. Let's say you guys all won gold medals, but later, it was discovered that your 3 other teammates were all doping. Don't you all deserve to be stripped of your medals? Your 3 teammates would be banned from relay racing as well. Plus it just looks silly to see so many single and two man profiles at the top of the leaderboards in the 4 man ladders, right? lol
Completely agree let's clean up the leaderboards.
Looking at this as a database admin, I know that removing those entries would be a nightmare to do. Cross-referncing ID from one player to the IDs of their 4-man games and to each one of the other players IDs would be a whole lot of work.
03/30/2016 02:06 AMPosted by milo
Looking at this as a database admin, I know that removing those entries would be a nightmare to do. Cross-referncing ID from one player to the IDs of their 4-man games and to each one of the other players IDs would be a whole lot of work.


I'm surprised to read this from a database admin. I think we both have no knowledge of how the rankings are internally stored. Maybe it's done in such a way that this is going to be complex (or even close to impossible) and that's the reason for why it's not done. However, if I was the designer to set up the structure of those rankings it would be a simple JOIN query. How large and complex those databases are and how long (and error prone) such a query would be depends on how exactly the DB structure is set up; but the amount of "nightmare" this would cause for a database admin is 99% based on how well the structure is set up. Note that all this information is already there (if I hover over anyone in this 4 player team I can see the other team members).

In any case, I'd be interested in Blizzard's view on this - if there's a reason as to why they leave the fragmented entries on the leaderboards.
What if they don`t remove "maphack" users? does it makes it legit? shall we all get it ? so maybe we can be equal for the leaderboards?....
03/29/2016 03:54 AMPosted by Light
We should also start reporting comments on posters supporting/condoning botting so that Blizzard can look into their accounts.


This is a very positive step but let's not turn the forums into a witch hunt. People are entitled to their opinions and this is the time to express them, there's nothing suspicious about that. Let's hope that this leads to healthier ladders in the future.
I agree the Patriots should be stripped of their superbowls! Damn cheaters.

Hang on that's not what we are talking about... Oops!

Umm I don't completely agree with this. People aren't actually botting when pushing the leaderboards so they completed that grift legitimately. Sure they may have an advantage like more keystones to recycle. But they are limited to as many keystones as the legit players have farmed.

I would agree if a party member of that group was using THUD because that would give you an advantage when pushing.

I was ranked on the 4 man boards like over a month ago. I fell off eventually cause i stopped playing. I would hate to get that removed because 1 of the 3 people I played with botted once or twice. I don't know that. If I did I wouldn't play with them. I would understand though like I said above if they were using THUD and were saying skip this group pylon ahead as that is a huge advantage.

That's just my opinion. Hopefully after the first couple ban waves people won't cheat any more so we will not have to worry about it. As more ban waves happen people will be more hesitant to even attempt to cheat.
03/30/2016 02:41 AMPosted by Jomama
What if they don`t remove "maphack" users? does it makes it legit? shall we all get it ? so maybe we can be equal for the leaderboards?....

Blizzard should not stop investigating banners on the basis that they may never get every single one, just like police shouldn't stop investigating crimes on the basis they may never catch all criminals.

Any step in banning cheaters is a step closer to leaderboard utopia. It may never be possible to ban every single cheater this game has ever had, but the more they ban, the better the leaderboards will be.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum