Build diversity is alarmingly low (WALL OF TEXT)

General Discussion
Prev 1 5 6 7 9 Next
It's funny how this problem stems from a lack of content and expansions,
but your focus is diversity within a confined scope of its own making.

This problem is about money.
It's about Blizzard getting that money, and if you don't start to give them that money, you're going to be bringing up things such as "diversifying builds" that are set in stone because they're designed to be set in stone, until something different is added to the game just to change the scene or the pace..
OP - absolutely SPOT ON!

I run a LON wiz/disintegrate/arcane build and even though my wiz is pretty much maxxed, she's pushing clearing a 50 grift with no chance of going higher because her damage is limited when compared to the top popular builds.

Some of the elitists here have a very shallow minded attitude of "tough luck, just play the established builds and stop whining", but that is so wrong. The game is incredibly unbalanced - One should be able to take any combination of items and skills and be roughly as competitive as another item/skill build. The LON set goes some way to item diversity, but some LON builds for certain characters are more powerful than other LON setups. Again, the game is unbalanced.

The game could be balanced - sure it'd take some time and effort, but it could be done. The problem is Blizzard isn't going to waste money and/or time on doing this for a game that's basically in maintenance mode.
New legendaries should not just increase the damage of a skill by a boring %. Instead the affixes that add another rune or completely different effects to a spell is not just more fun but more effective and creates the diversity people desire.
I´d say, the main problem are the very restrictive SETS.
They basically only buff a certain skill or an element and only under certain conditions (while whirling, having stacks up etc.)

It would be much better if the buffed skills were more variable or open or even random.
I can't imagine what the hell they tried to accomplish by doing this awful itemization, other than restricting builds to destroy the game even more.
This is what usually happens when a game is failing and they try to overhaul it. Not only they fail to resolve the original issues but they also bring new ones. Seen it way too many times. Designer teams going full retard. The lack of competent professionals is alarming.
Not to bring other games into a D3 discussion BUT this almost seems to be a trend in games really.

Take Guild Wars for example: In the first Gw there were almost endless builds that would work because of all the skills in the game. Granted you still for the most part used a few select build for the toughest parts of the game, there was still diversity. Now in Gw2 there are like two builds per class that EVERYONE uses, and all you do is switch the armor you're wearing depending on needing DPS or Survivability.

Fallout 4 is another. Compared to New Vegas the skill building/progression is just terrible and dumb down to the point of being frustrating. Theres no creativity involved in it at all.

I liked it when I had to think my builds out a head of time, you just don't see that anymore.
07/08/2016 08:24 AMPosted by Deadric
Not to bring other games into a D3 discussion BUT this almost seems to be a trend in games really.

I think it helps to look at other games how they go around such problems.
07/08/2016 09:34 AMPosted by Zasz
07/08/2016 08:24 AMPosted by Deadric
Not to bring other games into a D3 discussion BUT this almost seems to be a trend in games really.

I think it helps to look at other games how they go around such problems.


Well the problem really seems to stem from the commercialization of the gaming market as the industry has grown. Today's games in context of quality of software and execution are better than they have ever been. They just aren't good games and I think that is due to the fact that being a developer is much less a passion project to build a game they themselves want to play and more of a career where they need to focus on getting into bigger projects to move up the ladder.

For the last 8+ years Blizzard games feel like they are developed by people with little to no first hand experience in their own game. None of their decisions every seem grounded in the basic player experience.
One of the big questions I have consistently had is "Does this competitive GRift pushing environment belong in Diablo in the first place?" We find ourselves in a place where we care more about keeping every class at the same balance tier when they are basically designed by the powers that be to be more or less powerful than each other. Some people break outside of the mold and build surprising sets that push harder and farther, but generally speaking we have cashed in "fun" for "balance" and sacrificed the soul of the game. I hope that they keep the next Diablo expansion dialed in on the purely fun aspects of the game, not destroying build diversity for the sake of competitive balance. It just doesn't feel like it belongs here. I'd rather go back to grinding for my first Cindercoat :)
07/08/2016 01:43 AMPosted by Kurthu
It's funny how this problem stems from a lack of content and expansions,
but your focus is diversity within a confined scope of its own making.

Diablo 3 has no lack of content - there's plenty of it. Just nobody cares to do it or anything because it's the worst investment you can do in your progress. But that's a completely different issue - but a huge one aswell.

If the equivalence of Torment 10 was the single greatest difficulty, and Bounties rewarded the same as rifts, and Greater Rifts the same, people would have an actual choice on what to do. But right now Bounties are the worst rewards on anything (save except doing the campaign/story but that's just a waste of space). Rifts have the single best dropchance due to their great layouts, but GR's has the top rewards in everything from EXP, legendaries per hour and gold, making it the only sensible thing to do. Bumping up difficulty to Torment 13 won't change any of that, GR's will still have better rewards and be the main event in the game. Bounties will still be boring and annoying and close to useless, and regular rifts will just be rifts.

So the only thing changed is: What builds can actually do Torment 13 rifts solo and all the other builds that just can't. And that's the big discrepancy.
07/05/2016 09:54 AMPosted by Ruin
Everything is set in stone. You can change an item out of your build but you will be severely gimped compared to the people who "follow the rules". There is no creativity anymore, creativity is not rewarded but punished.


+1

This pretty much sums up Diablo3 at the moment.
07/08/2016 02:18 PMPosted by KiWeN
Diablo 3 has no lack of content - there's plenty of it. Just nobody cares to do it or anything because it's the worst investment you can do in your progress. But that's a completely different issue - but a huge one aswell.


This is a huge problem with the game and I think this is a big reason why the next expansion was likely scrapped. (Which isn't officially confirmed but it seems pretty likely at this point.)

Think about it.

Why should the developers spend months and months designing new areas in a game that actively DISCOURAGES doing anything that doesn't provide the best drop chance or XP?

Blizzard could spend years making content but why should they when everyone would just play it once and then go back to GRifts?

Something really needs to be done in D3 to open the game up and allow people to play any way they please and still make decent progress.

In order to increase diversity there needs to be more ways to play the game than just "complete GRift [insert number] before the timer runs out."
You can easily clear t10 and more with Roland shield bash build. Torment 3 is a joke, you don't even need any sets to clear t3. What are you talking about? Have you even tried to make a strong enough build? I think not. Because you absolutely CAN create a Legacy of nightmares build around item procs (like Fulminator and such) that will be capable of clearing t10.
And there ARE sets that just give you damage bonus to everything. Like Akkhan set, IK set, Shadow set etc.
There are a lot of fun and viable builds in the game.
07/09/2016 01:57 AMPosted by Metzger
You can easily clear t10 and more with Roland shield bash build. Torment 3 is a joke, you don't even need any sets to clear t3. What are you talking about? Have you even tried to make a strong enough build? I think not. Because you absolutely CAN create a Legacy of nightmares build around item procs (like Fulminator and such) that will be capable of clearing t10.
And there ARE sets that just give you damage bonus to everything. Like Akkhan set, IK set, Shadow set etc.
There are a lot of fun and viable builds in the game.


I think you missed the point of build diversity, we already have TONS of "fun builds" but nothing to do with them, i can understand new players who have fun playing with T3 builds here and there but it is pointless for a lot of veterans, the game has lost any sign of challenge and the GR environment can´t allow diversity by design.

To be more precise, what is lacking in D3 is gameplay diversity , more game modes that give value to forgotten items that not work for the GR environment or speed farming, fixed challenges with different rules out of timed random maps and more leaderboards based on skill, not time spent.

And please, before you post the "play another game then" response i want to make clear that we are asking to improve the game by adding more diversity so more players can have fun.
You will never see build diversity when the game has infinite scaling rifts. There's nothing stopping you from running other builds other than leaderboard bragging rights
Just got a Super duper ancient crossbow Nat set, but sadly, due to how unbalanced things are, the damage will never exceed a normal Yang's recurve using a normal UE set, so I don't think I'd ever play it. The feeling of doing less damage to creatures just isn't satisfying.

Wish they'd balance sets (and legendaries) a bit more so that people are not clustered into using the same build. Frankly the last twenty DHs I joined up with were all having identical sets and skills as me. I see a lot more variety when I was playing a wizard.

The DH build is basically UE+ Yang's + DML + clarity wraps + focus and restraint

skills are vengeance seethe, multi shot arsenal, evasive fire focus, prep invigoration, vault tumble and wolf.

Haven't really tried other classes other than these two, but hope there's more balance and there's no single build that outshines the rest.
This lack of diversity stems from philosophy and math problems that were poorly addressed when the game was young. I notice a couple of types of people talking past each other on this subject. Some argue that "if you buff diversity people will still just find and play the strongest build" which is true. This will continue to be the case since that is what pushing the leader-boards is about. That doesn't obviate the fact that currently designed set and legendary items buff a very small number of skills so significantly that there is no comparison whatsoever. People will use skill "A" over skill "B" even if the damage is only 5% higher, so why is skill "A" 5,000% higher? Early on Blizzard made the wrong decision in dictating player decisions with very, very strong buffs. I pessimistically agree that the game is too far gone to change for the better. Instead of being a game that encourages diversity and creativity D3 is a game that encourages cookie-cutter builds and "playing your role." That decision was made long ago and I think people need to come to terms with it and move on if it isn't for them.
if the game does not want to diversity, or balance, to remove all items, skill, rune and passive.
to leave alone, 4 skills, 1 rune for skill and 4 passive. remove the elements. and continue the game.
this others, everything cannot be used.
the elements, available to the game:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/magefist - fire
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/frostburn - cold
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/cindercoat - fire
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/convention-of-elements - all
and, where are the other elements?
each class has its entertainment, according to the item that you like to use.
but the game tells you how you should play.
the other is, that limit you to have your "perfect gear stats".
An example:
glove: stat - strength 445, vitality 490, critical hit 8,5, cdr 6, armor 345.
it is impossible, the game does not give the tool. I can only change 1 stat, 1 reforge.
the perfect gear, is a dream. with all primary and secondary stats.
more 150 legendary items and used a top 10 legendary item...
I assume my above post was down-voted is because even though I argued on behalf of diversity I didn't say what people wanted to hear even if it was the cold hard truth. This game isn't going to get a huge overhaul that suddenly re-balances the skills and re-invigorates the game. Diablo 3 is in maintenance-mode from season to season and won't be seeing any huge changes. Stop working yourselves up and hoping for a miracle. It isn't going to happen no matter how hard we wish upon a star. Come to terms with what the game has become.
What you guys didnt get; "game is about mathcrafting" because there's no competitive scene and mobs possess zero defensive abilities like resistances or immunities like the previous installments. If Blizzard were to be any brave they'd balance and tweak the game around immunity breaking skills and add items that offer off-class skills like the old times.

What game plays like is no different than clicker heroes at the moment and people still talk about balancing it by amping and nerfing numbers. People still worry that their build will get nerfed in power of there were any resistances or immunities, alas there's a small ring called CoE and it quickly allow you to swap specs on the run. I dont get what are they afraid of when game became a wild ride with no rules. There aint even a stat allocation and people think it's more rpg than clicking. What's the risk? There are sh*t load of builds which depend on different elemental types. A simple immunity on a mob would stop your progress to a halt? If you think so, that part goes to Blizzard on including immunity breakers, and at the player side it'd be about using proccing gems and new off-class skill proc items.

Game needs a new breathe. Until then we'll be convicted to theorycraft on the question of "balance", yet get no answer cuz we all talkin about a yardstick here.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum