Which kind of trading would be the best?

General Discussion
08/21/2016 12:32 PMPosted by clueso
So what is actually the best solution?
No trading at all? Open Trade? In-clan-only-trade? Or something else?


what is being traded has to have different types of value to different people at different times for different reasons.

as it stands all players what is trifecta items and "set of the month" everything else including 100% of the lower 4 tiers of item quality are pure 100% trash.

What this means is that any trade systems you can imagine will fail because "what is being traded" is boring and predictable.
08/21/2016 02:47 PMPosted by Shurgosa
what is being traded has to have different types of value to different people at different times for different reasons.

as it stands all players what is trifecta items and "set of the month" everything else including 100% of the lower 4 tiers of item quality are pure 100% trash.

What this means is that any trade systems you can imagine will fail because "what is being traded" is boring and predictable.


Yep.

Everything in D3 is homogenized and boring. Yet another reason why trading could never work in D3. Boring game with boring items.

Player 1: Hey bro! Wanna trade?
Player 2: Sure! I need XYZ!
Player 1: I also need XYZ!
Player 2: Hmm... ok. Well I also need a ABC.
Player 1: Dang... I also need ABC.
*Awkward silence*
what about buying cheaper the non "set of the month" set, when it beeing not as popular as others this season?? It will go to non season and be used there.. Just because items are not the cream of the crop does not nessecarily mean they have no trade value. even mats for lazy people can be valued Musitc is a one hungry beast especially mats wise:p

Not evrybody has the time to run around and gather digital trash when has to attend to work.. however one could then spend his/hers hard earned $ on the digital trash in order to satisfy his/hers urge to progress played character. and very likely somebody selling digital trash would welcome $ in return for his/her time putten to run around like an idiot whole long day doing same stupid repetative stuff.
08/21/2016 02:40 PMPosted by Tetra
When the game launched 99.9% of a player's power came from equipping gear.


that wasn't the main reason for trading failing back then.
The reason trading didn't work was because there was no item sink at all.

If the cube and mystic would have been around from day 1, then the trading would have played out very different.

add bind-on-equip and there would have been plenty of item-sinks to maintain most items at a rather high value.

08/21/2016 02:47 PMPosted by Shurgosa
as it stands all players what is trifecta items and "set of the month" everything else including 100% of the lower 4 tiers of item quality are pure 100% trash.


In the release version only the white items were trash.
Most people used blues/rares and some even legies/sets.

that the lower 3 tiers (white, blue, yellow) are pure 100% trash made it into the game with loot 2.0.

The original dev-team did actually think the whole progressing and trading thing through, then the community came along and cried "only blues/yellows, no legies/sets" and that got us into the even more terrible situation we're currently in.

Btw, i bet the original dev-team had to hold back the cube and re-rolling, so that there's some extra-content for RoS.
that wasn't the main reason for trading failing back then.
The reason trading didn't work was because there was no item sink at all.

If the cube and mystic would have been around from day 1, then the trading would have played out very different.

add bind-on-equip and there would have been plenty of item-sinks to maintain most items at a rather high value.


Item sink would have helped and definitely should have been in the game at launch.

But the over-importance of gear is still a major problem with the game and always has been. When people hit level 60 they were identical to everyone else playing the same class. That's a huge problem with D3 and it severely limited the options people had.

People complained that they had to play the AH to progress because it was far easier to gain power through trading than by actually playing the game and finding the gear itself.

That was because there were no other options at all given to the player. At level 60 you had to find gear to progress. That was it. You had no other option. That made gear OP and that's what ruined trading altogether and made everyone hate the AH.

If there had been other ways to gain power besides slapping on better gear then the AH wouldn't have been seen as the villain. I think it is funny that only after the AH was removed that so many people finally started seeing all the limitations that D3 had baked into the core.

So it brings me to this:

...
Would you please expand what you mean here?

Basically what we had in D2. Third party websites, scammers and pay2win.


1) There are third party websites selling stuff for D3 (google it).
2) Scammers, there are probably some of those websites which are (no different to D2 then). If you are talking about in-game scammers, then as I said before, players just need to grow up, and
3) pay2win - you still can with D3

The scale of it is probably smaller in D3 as it's not as easy to trade, but the same problems in D2 also exist in D3.

D2 was pay2win because item power pretty much dictated the character power. Not as much in D3 as D3 there are the paragons taking over the power. And the top gear in D2 was extremely hard if not impossible to get, a lot harder than D3.

Given the diminished relevance items have in D3, open trading won't make much difference for players or third parties.
Imo, the major thing wrong with the previous AH was the choice of gold as currency. This is inherently flawed as gold has very little value on its own. The RMAH kind of worked because it used real-world money which does have value. But it failed because items were not valuable enough to be worth paying money for and there was a lack of social interaction. The AH as presented was an almost carbon-copy from WoW. It doesn't work as well in an ARPG like Diablo.

A better AH would have its own unique currency. A game I'll use as an example is Warframe. Warframe uses Platinum, which is a currency converted from real dollars. You can use it to buy items offered by the devs or trade it with other players for items. Back in the D2 days, this currency was gems and runes. There isn't any strict equivalent in D3, so some other kind of exchange would be necessary to make the new currency viable.

That said, I don't think this idea would translate completely with Diablo. It works for Warframe because items are relatively scarce and Platinum is valuable. Perhaps creating a matchmaking system where player X is looking for Y item can be paired with another player matching the required criteria. That would significantly improve the trading experience while adding a social aspect. An added benefit is that an interface could be developed to keep track of item prices over time.

These are just suggestions, but the idea remains that using gold was a terrible choice and the AH UI was non-interactive. I don't have any solution for botting and 3rd party farming other than Blizzard needs to keep a tight leash on them.
08/21/2016 03:49 PMPosted by Alukat
In the release version only the white items were trash.
Most people used blues/rares and some even legies/sets.


This is only partially true. greys and whites and 99% of blues were flatout worthless crap. And to boot, legendary/set items, were also complete garbage. so im not ready to concede that the old dev team were onto something even remotely admirable. They were not.

of course mixing the tiers is FAAAAAAAAAAR more interesting than pushing everyone in legendary/sets mind you...
How about sets of rare drops that are literally trading cards, with no other purpose in game. Players could trade them amongst themselves and complete sets, maybe for cosmetic rewards.

That way, those that "enjoy" trading for the "social interaction" can scratch that itch, and it wouldn't break the game for the rest of us.

I think that would be the best type of trading.
08/21/2016 04:31 PMPosted by Tetra
But the over-importance of gear is still a major problem with the game and always has been. When people hit level 60 they were identical to everyone else playing the same class. That's a huge problem with D3 and it severely limited the options people had.


even with more power from leveling, gear would still be important for higher difficulties, or do you want power from levels to be so overpowered that gear basically becomes obsolete?

point being, even with more power from levels, the trading would still have ended like it did, with very high inflation of good gear.

People complained that they had to play the AH to progress because it was far easier to gain power through trading than by actually playing the game and finding the gear itself.


In order to buy something in the AH you had to play the game.

of course it is. When grinding the gear yourself you have to deal with RNG, when using the AH you don't have to deal with RNG, this makes AH faster than self-grind ofc.

Anyway, the original dev-team designed the game for multiple-audiences.
the casual - can buy his stuff in auction (those complained the most)
the "normal" gamer - partially farm himself, partially buys in auction
the hardcore gamer - farms everything himself

they worked out a compromise.

However, the stubborn casuals insisted to find everything themselves in little to no time and sadly the new dev team gave into it.
That lead to no game being left for the "normal" as well as the hardcore gamers, due to everyone being finished with the game/gearing in little to no time.
then the "normal" and hardcore gamers started to complain that everything is to easily obtainable and that gearing is way too quick, so they added ancients and augments.
Which however, still leaves the "normal" and hardcore gamers with literally every legy/set being everydays trash, due to items lacking rarity.

So, this focus that everything can be found into little to no time by oneself, may have improved the game for the casuals (who don't spend much time with the game) but it way worse for the "normal" and hardcore gamers (who would actually spend time with the game)....

08/21/2016 04:31 PMPosted by Tetra
If there had been other ways to gain power besides slapping on better gear then the AH wouldn't have been seen as the villain.


It would have still been the villain, unless you make gear obsolete.... because at some point, the player will get more power only from gear and then the complaining would have started too...

08/21/2016 06:34 PMPosted by Shurgosa
This is only partially true. greys and whites and 99% of blues were flatout worthless crap. And to boot, legendary/set items, were also complete garbage.


Ah, i forgot the greys :D
Anyway, this got even worse.
now 100% of greys, whites, blues, rares are flatout worthless crap and 99+% of the legendaries/set items are crap. No improvement here.

08/21/2016 06:34 PMPosted by Shurgosa
so im not ready to concede that the old dev team were onto something even remotely admirable.


they made sure that you're stuck with blues/yellows for while instead of them being totally obsolete. Whether or not it's admirable is personal preference ^^
People complained that they had to play the AH to progress because it was far easier to gain power through trading than by actually playing the game and finding the gear itself.


In order to buy something in the AH you had to play the game.

People were not just buying endgame gear in the AH, they also bought cheap items while leveling.
Instead of finding an upgrade every now and then and get exited over it, they simply went to the AH every few levels and bought some cheap yellows.

I still think in-clan-only-trading is better than an AH.

<snip>

If they are to put trading back in D4 (which they should) then they can't build a 2-dimensional game where all you do is slap on gear and swap around your Call of Duty perks for your "builds".

They have to make a real game where building your character takes time and dedication. *Gasp* I just offended every Casual Carl out there with that last sentence.

No more account-wide leveling.
No more infinite free respecs.
No more pointless campaign mode where nothing you do matters.
No more pointless leveling system where nothing you do matters because everything is on rails.
No more playing a game where it is impossible to find people that aren't max level.

Basically, they have to take off the training wheels and make a game with enough complexity to allow people to play in different ways depending on what they wish to accomplish.

Then and only then can trading work.


While some of you didn't like the truth, this is a good portion of why trading didn't work people.
Add in a toxic community of ridiculously entitled players who really can't play any other way but to have everything done for them and you have the whole story.

The entire gaming community MUST find a way to deny the "participation trophy generation" and send the little kiddies running for their mommies.
Trading enabled please.
In the current state however, trading is not necessary really. It's too Fkn easy to get items. ( aka no fun at all anyways )

I want items to feel great when I find them not soul with out looking practically everything. Items dropping in Diablo 3 is just an eye sore now. Fix this.

Diablo 2, :O Unique ring, :O Unique Corona, :O (Even if very common) Unique Shako, :O Unique Diadem.

etc I want this. The feeling of that in Diablo 3 lasts about a few hours of first starting a character, after reaching level 70... Yawn ZzZzzZzz

Souls
08/21/2016 02:37 PMPosted by Alukat
I'm for creating a frame in which trading is still possible, but also makes scamming harder - like the in-clan-only-trading that I proposed in my original post.


sure, i'd go with in-clan-trading + flist trading.

have to be in clan/befriended for 30 days that would make things much harder for scammers/3rd party sites and clans/friends can still trade unlimited ^^


I've advocated this for years now, ever since they got rid of trading. I've been shot down by people claiming that clans would be made that still would allow illicit trading and bots and so on. However, these same people were never able to explain to me how exactly that would work, and why anyone would wait 30 days to get a piece of gear in the first place.

Give me the same system we have now, with the addition of in clan trading with 30 days in clan required to trade and I'd be a happy man.
08/21/2016 02:47 PMPosted by Shurgosa
08/21/2016 12:32 PMPosted by clueso
So what is actually the best solution?
No trading at all? Open Trade? In-clan-only-trade? Or something else?


what is being traded has to have different types of value to different people at different times for different reasons.

as it stands all players what is trifecta items and "set of the month" everything else including 100% of the lower 4 tiers of item quality are pure 100% trash.

What this means is that any trade systems you can imagine will fail because "what is being traded" is boring and predictable.


Except the system won't fail if people use it to give their clan mates items they don't need, not expecting anything in return. That is the true power of the trading clan. It isn't so much trading as quid pro quo.

I don't want to fiddle around trying to figure out what I need from my friend while he rummages around in his bank. I'd rather give him what he needs, and then sometime later he can repay me, if the chance arises. Simple as that.
08/22/2016 05:58 PMPosted by clueso
People were not just buying endgame gear in the AH, they also bought cheap items while leveling.
Instead of finding an upgrade every now and then and get exited over it, they simply went to the AH every few levels and bought some cheap yellows.


yeah, they bought gear that drops on a daylie or weekly basis...
I bet many people bought items in the auction and then found that item 30 minutes later themselves, which isn't an upgrade anymore because they bought it 30 minutes ago lol.

I did a test on that with a rare pants. I found those pants with roughly the same stats every day and they sold every day lol.

I mean, what's the point of buying stuff that drops on a daylie basis? lol.

So many of the "can't find upgrades"-complains were even caused by the players being too impatient to wait for 30 minutes or so for the item to drop lol. The problem was sitting in front of the pc.
that post at #20

omg

lol

I can´t even....
even with more power from leveling, gear would still be important for higher difficulties, or do you want power from levels to be so overpowered that gear basically becomes obsolete?

This is actually quite true, no matter how you split the power ratio items will be a determining factor, because skills and builds are static stats, which means the only advancement is items. So when this is the only limitation of power, it will be the main objective to enhance your character.

08/21/2016 05:55 PMPosted by Tandem
Imo, the major thing wrong with the previous AH was the choice of gold as currency.

Gold is a fine currency, the problem was items and the randomization of them.

First of you had the general rarity, legendary items was insanely rare, so their base value went up compared to other items. However, legendaries was just glorified rares and rolled just as random, and just as bad. There were tons of useless legendaries because they were all over the place with the affixes they generated.

Second of all there was the range of which affixes could roll, main stat went from 10 to 200, and it was even possible to double stat it, increasing to 300. How much was 1 single point worth? Nobody knows, because at a certain size they were not even considered.

Thirdly there was additional affixes, like how do you compare the LpS affix to Armor? How much is All Resistance worth compared to Vitaliy? This depended so largely on your current items, class and setup so no one could say. And that made pricing insanely difficult which caused players to value items incorrect and a lot of good stuff went on too cheap.

So item values were just all over the place. You couldn't say; that item has this value. Because it didn't, and it did and no one truly knew, besides the person who actually thought "I can use this, and it's worth this much to me".

The more fixed an item is, the easier it is to value and player economies thrive. These huge fluctuations just creates distortion and a lot more crappendaries.

Then there was the issue of how you gained gold, of you progressed and searched for items you got very little gold, but backtracking you could get a LOT of gold, and easy. And that lead to farming of gold and caused inflation in the gold value.

08/21/2016 05:55 PMPosted by Tandem
The RMAH kind of worked because it used real-world money which does have value.

No it just tied your progress to your bank account and how much money you made. Need I remind you that items were sold for thousands of dollars because players wants the best? Doesn't really matter how or what it is, if something is better than the rest, someone will want it.

08/22/2016 05:58 PMPosted by clueso
Instead of finding an upgrade every now and then and get exited over it, they simply went to the AH every few levels and bought some cheap yellows.

Because items were terrible at rolling good, they have fixed it a lot now in RoS, but that was just way too late.
The fact that you could find a weapon without a damage modifier on it, just made it hopeless. And you needed that damage to advance because the scaling in difficulty as you progressed demanded it.

The scale on which you travel was so big, like going from 1 to 300, which is a much larger trip then 1 to 100 in item ranges. What really determines values is how much it affects and how much better or worse it can get.

Getting a useful item while playing now is much easier, however at end game we still struggle with the fact that main stat ranges goes from 426-650. On a lot of items. The smaller than range is, the less hopeless it will seem to get a proper good item, and the easier it is to value.
Second of all there was the range of which affixes could roll, main stat went from 10 to 200, and it was even possible to double stat it, increasing to 300. How much was 1 single point worth?


more than it is now

08/23/2016 12:32 AMPosted by KiWeN
Because items were terrible at rolling good, they have fixed it a lot now in RoS, but that was just way too late.


yet they broke it in RoS by making good rolled items pretty much obsolete.... who cares these days about 50 extra main stat?

08/23/2016 12:32 AMPosted by KiWeN
The fact that you could find a weapon without a damage modifier on it, just made it hopeless.


in 1.08 weapons already did come always with a damage modifier roll on it. I think they did already implement it at 1.05 or so.

08/23/2016 12:32 AMPosted by KiWeN
Getting a useful item while playing now is much easier, however at end game we still struggle with the fact that main stat ranges goes from 426-650. On a lot of items. The smaller than range is, the less hopeless it will seem to get a proper good item, and the easier it is to value.


well, due to all the main stat creep, maxing an item has become pointless.
08/22/2016 10:53 PMPosted by Lane
Except the system won't fail if people use it to give their clan mates items they don't need, not expecting anything in return. That is the true power of the trading clan. It isn't so much trading as quid pro quo.

I don't want to fiddle around trying to figure out what I need from my friend while he rummages around in his bank. I'd rather give him what he needs, and then sometime later he can repay me, if the chance arises. Simple as that.


Oh yes genius......the system wont fail because you and your idiot friend wont suffer the agony of having to "figure out what you need".......

God..........honestly....how do I even reply to this post?...I don't even know what to say to you....

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