Whats the point...?

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OP this is EXACTLY how it is too. You're right on point with this post haha.
I don't think so ∩ •́ヮ•̀)⊃━☆゚. * ・ 。゚
09/06/2016 09:49 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
But you don't even need large amounts of theorycrafting or math for D3. As far as games go these days, D3 is (intentionally) simplistic. Fewer gear slots, fewer stats, rigid gear rolls, ability/Rune combinations you can dismiss at a glance, lack of skill trees, largely a lack of skills interacting with each other, etc.


Look skill trees only have at best an illusion of complexity. Now mind telling me how we have less gear slots than D2. I don't remember pants, shoulders or bracers being in D2.

Also there are more than one build supported by each set. To figure out the strongest might not be so straightforward as it would seem.


Most of the time that illusion of complexity might be true, but it wouldn't be for someone like you experimenting with everything. It would probably be more complicated, actually. Anyway, lack of skill trees wasn't the only thing I listed and my list isn't complete either.

No, it's still pretty straightforward. It boils down to how many supplemental legendary items you can use to enhance the skills.

09/06/2016 06:12 PMPosted by Orrion
Which has nothing to do with lore at all. When I brought up lore it was because you were making some "I need to know ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING" point, and lore is part of that. However, it wasn't part of what you quoted. We were specifically addressing builds changing over a period of time due to patching, and that doesn't apply to lore.


So I have to be a loremaster of the game just to learn everything about the higher tier GRs. Things like the following; how each class performs, how each set performs, how each build that each set supports performs, how many variations is possible, how many LoN builds can be near the same level as sets, etc... So I have to learn lore to learn all of the above. I don't think so, when I have that knowledge and know those things. Then I can take certain builds that I want to try and figure out how high they can go.


I think you failed reading comprehension. My point was you don't have to learn lore for all of that.

Further, if I not only gain the experience of playing in the higher tier GRs. I also gain the knowledge of the theorycrafting math. Then I could make a good estimate about how far any build that could go before I would test it.


Experience playing higher GRs isn't related to theorycrafting. It's not like everyone who plays a character capable of GR 75+ is a theorycrafter, especially if they play in groups.
I am talking about game playing experience. Playing the game will teach you a lot. When you learn the basics of game mechanics and learn enough about play as much of the game that is accessible to you will teach you even more.

If what you have been saying about it would be like saying I could take any build that I make in Path of Exile and figure out how far in mapping it would go without looking it up in the forums. Or without any experience at playing the mapping system that they have in place. Which btw I haven't played a lot of maps in that game.

That would also be like saying that I could tell players that their GR 90+ clears took zero fishing for the right rifts. Their complaining to Blizz is dumb because they don't have to fish at all. Because I have never played past GR64 and yet I can see that they are telling it right as far as having to fish for the right rift setup.

Most of the time that illusion of complexity might be true, but it wouldn't be for someone like you experimenting with everything. It would probably be more complicated, actually. Anyway, lack of skill trees wasn't the only thing I listed and my list isn't complete either.

No, it's still pretty straightforward. It boils down to how many supplemental legendary items you can use to enhance the skills.


Illusion of complexity means just that. Until you learn the basics of how the skills play out in a variety of situations. You will be able to figure out the rest when you have a good enough experience of the game. It gets easier if the new game you are playing is similar to other games that you have played before. But still you will need some game playing experience to tell you whether or not your are right.

Being wrong here might mean missing out playing a build that is fun to play. Even though it might not be a great speed clear T13 rifts, speed bounty T13 clear, a Grift pushing build, etc...

09/07/2016 01:44 PMPosted by Orrion
Experience playing higher GRs isn't related to theorycrafting. It's not like everyone who plays a character capable of GR 75+ is a theorycrafter, especially if they play in groups.


No playing at those levels teaches you what is required to be able to clear the GR. Then playing at the same GR level with all classes would teach you what is required for each class. Why because you have been there before.

Kind of like my lack of experience in season 5 with GRs higher than level 43. That lack of experience, along with a bad game plan to unlock the stash space caused me to spend 198 hours unlocking it.
Agreed with OP.

D3 is exactly like D2 currently end-game wise if you think about it. We're always ont he hunt for more loot.

Where it differs is that D2 was always more about making character builds and trying to see if they worked I literally made more than a hundred different characters in D2. This is in stark contrast to D3 which currently narrowly focuses on sets to make you powerful. You don't get to choose your playstyle; it gets chosen for you.

Hopefully D4 remedies this.
Well, that's cause this game isn't really a Diablo game. It's more single player / small group WoW. It's based on achievement and metered gear updates on a set path.

I find that randomization, trade, and the lust to find those phat loots keep the drive alive as was in D2. It's about seeing all that gear out there you desperately want, but can't just get by following a set path.

But that also requires a well-done Diablo game, which unfortunately D3 vanilla wasn't. :( And that's why ya'all have this silliness now. Bummer.
Powerful items dropping like candy was a dumb choice.
09/08/2016 12:43 PMPosted by JEM
Powerful items dropping like candy was a dumb choice.


The way the devs designed the game they kind of put themselves into a corner. When you have almost all of the power of our characters on the gear. You have to allow us to get it faster. Waiting to play a Helltooth WD set. But it takes around 5 to 6 months to find the set let alone it being ancient. That wouldn't go well with this game.

Now if the reverse were true where almost all of the power is with the character and gear only enhances the character. Along with having viable alternatives to either sets or legendary pieces. Then you can have a drop rate that would take along time to find those things.

09/08/2016 11:31 AMPosted by CDZ23
I find that randomization, trade, and the lust to find those phat loots keep the drive alive as was in D2. It's about seeing all that gear out there you desperately want, but can't just get by following a set path.


But the problem with having a game that supports trade you will still have trade as the fastest way to get the gear. Which means that you will either be getting your gear from botters (which could include stolen gear) or those that have no life outside of playing the game. Besides even D2 had some places where you could farm for certain items like runes.
09/08/2016 12:43 PMPosted by JEM
Powerful items dropping like candy was a dumb choice.


The way the devs designed the game they kind of put themselves into a corner. When you have almost all of the power of our characters on the gear. You have to allow us to get it faster. Waiting to play a Helltooth WD set. But it takes around 5 to 6 months to find the set let alone it being ancient. That wouldn't go well with this game.


Not really.

There was no need to make loot rain like candy. The only reason it does is because someone at Blizzard is stuck on the nonsense concept that RNG is fun and thinks that even more RNG must be even more fun. They painted themselves into the corner because every single time they added something or changed something they kept RNG as a central concept. The only way they can combat that horrendous system is to hand out free sets in Seasons, and then make drop rates sky high.

What should have happened was the introduction of systems that didn't have RNG. Not only would that work better for players because they could have some control over where they're going and how to get there, but it works much better with the developers' system of "Hey guys, we want you to play like this."

We ended up with completely divergent designs.
09/08/2016 02:40 PMPosted by Orrion
Not really.

There was no need to make loot rain like candy. The only reason it does is because someone at Blizzard is stuck on the nonsense concept that RNG is fun and thinks that even more RNG must be even more fun. They painted themselves into the corner because every single time they added something or changed something they kept RNG as a central concept. The only way they can combat that horrendous system is to hand out free sets in Seasons, and then make drop rates sky high.

What should have happened was the introduction of systems that didn't have RNG. Not only would that work better for players because they could have some control over where they're going and how to get there, but it works much better with the developers' system of "Hey guys, we want you to play like this."

We ended up with completely divergent designs.


Look every drop or gamble from Gheed has rng, there is nothing that I know of that is a guaranteed drop or get from Gheed gamble after x amount of attempts. Those things doesn't exist in D2. So why should they exist in this game.

I can guarantee if the power is on the character instead of the gear. Along with having alternatives to only using sets. Then you can change the drop rate where it is not raining gear like candy. Put the builds back on the character and off of the gear and you will see the difference. Then there will be some classes and some builds, if infinite scaling is removed, that would be able to complete the highest difficulty almost naked.
09/08/2016 03:37 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
09/08/2016 02:40 PMPosted by Orrion
Not really.

There was no need to make loot rain like candy. The only reason it does is because someone at Blizzard is stuck on the nonsense concept that RNG is fun and thinks that even more RNG must be even more fun. They painted themselves into the corner because every single time they added something or changed something they kept RNG as a central concept. The only way they can combat that horrendous system is to hand out free sets in Seasons, and then make drop rates sky high.

What should have happened was the introduction of systems that didn't have RNG. Not only would that work better for players because they could have some control over where they're going and how to get there, but it works much better with the developers' system of "Hey guys, we want you to play like this."

We ended up with completely divergent designs.


Look every drop or gamble from Gheed has rng, there is nothing that I know of that is a guaranteed drop or get from Gheed gamble after x amount of attempts. Those things doesn't exist in D2. So why should they exist in this game.


I never said anything about a gambling system having a guaranteed payoff. I meant other systems aside from gambling that don't have RNG could have been introduced.

You're also making an error in focusing purely on Kadala. The Mystic is RNG (weighted RNG in some cases). Cube is full of RNG. Etc.

About the only thing that isn't RNG at present is bounty rewards - on max Torments, anyway, and even that was RNG originally.

I can guarantee if the power is on the character instead of the gear. Along with having alternatives to only using sets. Then you can change the drop rate where it is not raining gear like candy. Put the builds back on the character and off of the gear and you will see the difference. Then there will be some classes and some builds, if infinite scaling is removed, that would be able to complete the highest difficulty almost naked.


The way they put the power on the character before was a skill tree, and I don't think you like skill trees much.
It's fun. Occasionally. I play a few days every few months. The game is paid for and if they add anything to it like another expansion I'll likely buy it. But there's no great meta-point to playing most any ARPG. You do it if you like it or do something else if you get tired of it. I still play D2 every so often. There's no point to that either. Both games are fine in their own way after taking long breaks.
09/08/2016 02:40 PMPosted by Orrion
What should have happened was the introduction of systems that didn't have RNG. Not only would that work better for players because they could have some control over where they're going and how to get there, but it works much better with the developers' system of "Hey guys, we want you to play like this."


A lot of what you're writing about here is more traditional MMO stuff than ARPG. About the only thing I'd really like to see in the game is a nicely-layered professions system that would provide advancement just the way you're thinking of: farm specific areas that make sense to acquire specific mats to make specific things that can then be enhanced over time with more farming. But face it, the more you wander down that path the more you encroach into traditional MMO/WoW territory with quests, campaigns, rewards and such. That doesn't sound much like anything one would call Diablo X.
09/08/2016 04:08 PMPosted by Orrion
You're also making an error in focusing purely on Kadala. The Mystic is RNG (weighted RNG in some cases). Cube is full of RNG. Etc.


Oh really and three out of eight recipe means that the cube is loaded with rng. I am certain that the blood, safety, hit power, and caster items had some rng to them. So don't think that everything in the original cube in D2 didn't have any rng to it.

09/08/2016 04:08 PMPosted by Orrion
The way they put the power on the character before was a skill tree, and I don't think you like skill trees much.


This all depends on how they are done. If they are done right where all skills are useful at max level and max difficulty in the game. Then I could be behind adding such a thing. But if it means that it will only make a few skills out of 30+ useful at max level and difficulty then this game would be better off without them.
whats the point? simple, to give all the jobless, stay at home, lazy, children ages 19-40+ a purpose for waking up in the morning. they somehow someway have it in their minds that if they reach rank 1 paragon 2000+ by the end of the season, they will get a girlfriend and be able to move out of their mom's basement. it's a sad but true fact. anyone with any sense or decent hobby has moved on from this game.

i played for 24 hours when s7 launched, never touched the game since last night when i logged in, got to 300 rift keys and laughed at myself for even thinking the game would be fun again.

oh but i guess if you are a girl who streams this game, you can have thirsty singles throw money your way, i randomly checked out the d3 streams on twitch the other night and saw some poor sucker gave a female d3 streamer like $300 lol so there is some profit to be had, thread title should be changed to, "whats the point...if you are male d3 player?"
09/08/2016 11:32 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
This all depends on how they are done. If they are done right where all skills are useful at max level and max difficulty in the game.


if they are not able to do it with items do you really think they are able to do it with something else?
just look at the current skills + passives + affixes... same story for content or economy...
09/09/2016 02:32 AMPosted by Wichtelman
09/08/2016 11:32 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
This all depends on how they are done. If they are done right where all skills are useful at max level and max difficulty in the game.


if they are not able to do it with items do you really think they are able to do it with something else?
just look at the current skills + passives + affixes... same story for content or economy...


I am not just talking about this game. That is a blanket statement that is for all games. The reason for the blanket statement was in response to the comment that was said to me. Where the person basically said you hate skill trees. Then I mentioned the above statement.

I will not agree to having skill trees if only a handful of skills are useful after spending max points on them. Now if you can make them all useful in some manner then I will support such a skill tree system regardless of whether you call it skill trees, talent trees, paragon trees, etc...
Just like every other games. There are times we get bored of the grinding, farming and whatnot. To be honest I dont see a reason why people would hate a game after playing casually for 1 week.

All these high level players who competes for leaderboard are Hardcore players. If youre just a casual player dont expect to be in the competitive league. I like the implementation of master paragons and ancients version of items. It keeps the diablo going through high end players.

Like myself im a casual player who likes getting items here and there but at the same time I do not miss out on strong items.

The fact this thread is open only means we care. I want this game to keep on going. I love this game.
this is why i quit playing this game...

been months since i last dragged myself to play this and just deleted it to make room for stuff i actualy enjoy playing longer then half an hour...

this game is so stale it allmost destroyed my love for the genre... but other games like grim dawn bring back some of that love... this game still has made it's effect (not in a good way)

i keep tabs on the patches but all i see is them in/decreasing numbers and torment/GR levels...

game has outlived it's need... there are far better games then this one.
Removal of AH, Paragon levels and greater rifts/rifts is what killed this game

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