Manaldo Mechanics

Wizard
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Just did some Manald Heal testing and here are some findings:

1. Damage is applied even when Paralysis stun effect is ignored due to CC resistance ramp (tested with max CDR cold snap/zodiac to ramp CC resistance to point where Calamity Stuns and Paralysis stuns are ignored)

2. Does not appear to have a cooldown (this is just my qualitative obs watching health bars and dmg from close/overlapping procs).

3. Lightning Hydra (typically thought of as a 'no proc' skill) can proc it. Lightning hydras from images cannot.

4. Storm armor bolts from sky can proc it. Shocking Aspect procs don't appear to proc it (tested with fire forked lightning rune).

5. Yes, it still sucks. It still needs more DPS. It will never be an effective Torment farmer due to low minimum dmg (RNG RNG), terrible AOE, and poor mobility. It will never be effective AOE dps at higher GR due to absolutely terrible AOE/area damage. It will probably never be effective single target dps at higher GR due to low APS/stricken stacking.

It has no niche.

There is almost no way this ring will be viable unless its weapon dmg is shot through the moon.
Hi Vox, Thanks for testing and sharing your results.

11/26/2016 10:08 AMPosted by Vox
3. Lightning Hydra (typically thought of as a 'no proc' skill) can proc it. Lightning hydras from images cannot.


Does this mean lightning hydra is also procing stun?

Secondly. Do you know whether or not Paralysis, and by extension Manlad procs are further reduced with Proc co efficient. Or is it just a static 15%?
11/26/2016 11:08 AMPosted by Christos
Does this mean lightning hydra is also procing stun?


Yes, Lightning Hydra procs stun.

11/26/2016 11:08 AMPosted by Christos
Do you know whether or not Paralysis, and by extension Manlad procs are further reduced with Proc co efficient. Or is it just a static 15%?


Observations are consistent with a static 15% regardless the skill/rune proc coefficient. I.e., proc coefficient treated as 1.0 (skill/rune specific proc coefficients not checked).

I had trouble getting many Paralysis procs from Lightning blizzard rune. That one may only check paralysis at cast. In contrast Lightning Hydra seems to check on each attack (this may have been changed last PTR patch... not sure).
Have you tried lightning rune on the spectral blades primary with the Shame of Dels belt equipped and the spectral blade wand?
So it's basically a 15% chance to do 14k weapon damage, and requires a passive to make it work. Better than Rimeheart, but not by much. It's basically like an extra 2100% WD per attack. Napkin math says that's not enough to be even close to competitive with CoE.

I'm glad it ignores CC resistance though. That makes it a little better than it otherwise would have been.
11/26/2016 10:08 AMPosted by Vox

It has no niche.

[/quote]

It makes TR Chain Lightning build a little more viable, though. Cleared a GR 80 in a little over 10 mins with a few deaths, and that's with only like a few hours of testing and not many augments on gear yet. It can wreck the hell out of Elite packs at times, but the build is squishy as hell, so you have to bounce around like crazy with Aether Walker.

Using TR6 (amulet, gloves, chest, belt, pants, orb), Aether Walker, VC, shield bracers, FnR, Deathwatch, Nilfur's. Cubing Myken's, Shame, and Menald Heal. Gems are Zei's, Trapped, and Stricken.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#UQhlSO!aVfh!accZcY

It also works decently well in that TR EB Static Discharge build I posted about a while ago:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Malakai-1265/hero/38316153

You replace Endless Walk with TR ammy and Menald Heal, and RoRG with Unity, and Galvanizing Ward with Paralysis. Seems like it might have a slightly higher ceiling, but might just be a sort of sidegrade option for the build.

It can also fit into a Firebird setup if you want:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#UQhlSO!aVfh!accYYY

FB6 (helm, shoulders, gloves, chest, boots, pants), Endless Walk, Menald Heal, Aether Walker, Myken's, Shame. Cube Infinite Depth, VC, and CoE.

There's also some Archon stuff you can do with it, which is nice.

I've only been messing with stuff for a few hours, so I'm sure things can be way better optimized, and some of the setups should be capable of going a bit higher than I've done so far pretty easily. Probably not top tier stuff here, but it does allow for more options than before, and it might be something to keep in mind if they give us another set or more Legendaries in the future.
Can it proc area damage? I am assuming no.
11/26/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Malakai
It makes TR Chain Lightning build a little more viable, though. Cleared a GR 80 in a little over 10 mins


Well, this is better than I expected, but still not a viable niche imo. A bit skeptical, I went and tried for myself. Did 80 in a little over 10 mins like yourself, almost same set up when I viewed your GR 80 setup on LB.

I was going to ask about performance of the alternative... Namely, COE + DPS passive (assuming FnR for both set ups), but it was clear on some T13 tests that Manald Heal is outperforming the skill dps + COE.

During the 80 I did, I noticed Manald Heal apparently procing in chunks (at least with Electrocute). Seems like all the paralysis checks in a tic of channeled Electrocute are clumped. You make all 10 (?) paralysis checks, or none of them. The way damage comes off of isolated elites looks like a dot as well, consistent with lots of procs separated by milliseconds. The same thing appeared to be happening in T13. Zap-zap-zap, zap-zap-zap, and then suddenly a whole pack goes down. Just a hypothesis at this point.

I'll stand by my earlier conclusion that Manald Heal doesn't have a niche. It needs another quadruple dps and it will be a nice alternative in GR, especially as a genuine ranged spec. It works fine in T13, maybe as a T13 entry spec, but it will never compete with the efficiency of the AOE/DPS heavy specs because it lacks AOE and upfront minimum dmg.

11/26/2016 01:48 PMPosted by Gbrav13
Can it proc area damage? I am assuming no.


I have also assumed 'no'.
Tried nearly optimized LON Electrocute on GR 80 to compare with Tal6/FnR.

NOPE!

Doubt it could beat an 80 when fully optimized.
11/26/2016 11:43 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Have you tried lightning rune on the spectral blades primary with the Shame of Dels belt equipped and the spectral blade wand?


Thrown Blades seems noticeably worse than Electrocute. But, not thoroughly tested.

In what I have tested, Manald Heal seems to perform best with Electrocute/Starfire/Walker at range with Zei/Power Hungry in Tal6/FnR suit.
Just one read of the patch notes, don't even need to try and one who's familiar with the meta can already tell this ring is going to suck. I tell you Blizzard. Change it so that lightning damage now does additional 20% damage (multiplicative), stacks up to 5-10 times. There, Wizard now has another element that can compete in endgame apart from fire fire fire.
I was going to ask about performance of the alternative... Namely, COE + DPS passive (assuming FnR for both set ups), but it was clear on some T13 tests that Manald Heal is outperforming the skill dps + COE.


I think for Electrocute builds MH is clearly better because the total weapon damage output of Electrocute is so low, so something like CoE isn't really doing a whole lot for it. MH is so good with Electrocute because of the way Paralysis does its checks (15% chance per cast, not tick, and doesn't use proc rates, and if successful all hits in the chain proc it) and how Electrocute is speed coefficient 2. Electrocute + VC can also tag so many mobs at once so it's super easy to herd with it + AW.

During the 80 I did, I noticed Manald Heal apparently procing in chunks (at least with Electrocute). Seems like all the paralysis checks in a tic of channeled Electrocute are clumped. You make all 10 (?) paralysis checks, or none of them. The way damage comes off of isolated elites looks like a dot as well, consistent with lots of procs separated by milliseconds. The same thing appeared to be happening in T13. Zap-zap-zap, zap-zap-zap, and then suddenly a whole pack goes down. Just a hypothesis at this point.


Yea, that's pretty much how it's worked since Reaper of Souls, maybe even Vanilla, but we didn't test until RoS came out. Me and another guy noticed the Paralysis behavior when I was doing the initial VC + Myken's build during early RoS, did some testing, came to this conclusion, posted about it in Apo's mechanics thread, and he confirmed it. It works the same with Spark, where if the initial cast procs Paralysis then the secondary explosion on landing will proc it as well. It used to be that if the initial cast of Lightning Storm proc'ed Paralysis then every single tick of that cast will proc it as well, but I don't think that's the case anymore. It was the same with Thunder Crash as well, where if the initial meteor hit proc'ed it then every tick of the DoT would as well, but again I'm not sure if that's still the case. I haven't tested with Storm Chaser or Super Massive yet, and I'm not exactly sure how it works with Static Discharge and all the extra bolts from it. I do notice SD + Paralysis + MH chuncking the hell out of mobs at times, though (I killed a GR80 RG in just a small handful of seconds last night with an SD build), so it might be that if a tick of SD procs Paralysis then all the extra bolts from that tick do as well.

Regardless, MH is a lot better than it seems at first glance, but taking full advantage of it can be tricky with the setup + gear because getting the needed DPS + survivability can be difficult. If MH were boots or shoulders instead, it would be super good and probably allow for bit higher of a ceiling with Electrocute or SD based builds due to access to EW set and a survivability ring. Still have some other setups to try, though, so we'll see.
11/27/2016 05:24 AMPosted by Malakai
I think for Electrocute builds MH is clearly better because the total weapon damage output of Electrocute is so low, so something like CoE isn't really doing a whole lot for it. MH is so good with Electrocute because of the way Paralysis does its checks (15% chance per cast, not tick, and doesn't use proc rates, and if successful all hits in the chain proc it) and how Electrocute is speed coefficient 2. Electrocute + VC can also tag so many mobs at once so it's super easy to herd with it + AW.


Wait. So are you saying paralysis proc chance scales with an abilities speed co efficient?
11/27/2016 06:53 AMPosted by Christos
Wait. So are you saying paralysis proc chance scales with an abilities speed co efficient?

Essentially yes, since paralysis is decoupled from the proc rate. The faster attacking builds (builds like AT:SD / electrocute / Blades / Lightning Vyr) that hit multiple times per cast will do better with Manald Heal.
11/26/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Malakai
Using TR6 (amulet, gloves, chest, belt, pants, orb), Aether Walker, VC, shield bracers, FnR, Deathwatch, Nilfur's. Cubing Myken's, Shame, and Menald Heal. Gems are Zei's, Trapped, and Stricken.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#UQhlSO!aVfh!accZcY

Tested and I also cleared a GR80 with a few minutes to spare with bad gems and unoptimized gear. Definitely works very well and feels good. A true ranged build - bravo.

Very glassy though. Currently testing out a few swaps to see if I can get it more tanky / more damage.

-----

I was only able to barely clear a 79 with Tal Blades: using Halo / APD, CoE, Manald. Cubed OID + DD, wore fragment and shame. Gems I was using: Trapped, Simplicity, Stricken/Mirinae (both seem viable). AS on gear.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#WQhlSf!iVdh!bccZcZ

The weakness of blades is having to be close up to enemies. There's no room in the build for defensive items, so you melt under the pressure of Reflect damage / pools / molten + Electrified. Feels like you're running away rather than dodging attacks sometimes, which is the opposite of what you need for APDs to work.

That said, CoE + Manald felt better than using Endless walk with Manald for this build.
11/27/2016 05:24 AMPosted by Malakai
It used to be that if the initial cast of Lightning Storm proc'ed Paralysis then every single tick of that cast will proc it as well, but I don't think that's the case anymore


I tested this a week or two ago. It does a check on the initial cast. If it passes, then the first time something is hit by that storm, it is stunned. But enemies remaining in don't continue to be stunned every tick.

And there were some issues with Blizzard stacking. If the first storm cast in an area didn't trigger Paralysis, then any additional overlapping Blizzard casts in that area would never trigger Paralysis.

I didn't test it with Manald Heal though, just Paralysis.
11/27/2016 05:24 AMPosted by Malakai
I do notice SD + Paralysis + MH chuncking the hell out of mobs at times, though (I killed a GR80 RG in just a small handful of seconds last night with an SD build), so it might be that if a tick of SD procs Paralysis then all the extra bolts from that tick do as well.


Hmmm. So it scales with the speed coefficient 3 of AT AND procs from the side bolts? Outside of 5 APS Vyr's, I think that makes AT: SD the best option for getting a massive number of MH procs. At least on a smaller number of targets.

EDIT:

Just tested, AT:SD side bolts do trigger Paralysis stuns.

EDIT2:

The Archon beam has a speed coefficient greater than 1, does it not? Ohhhh man... 5 APS at speed coef 3? Good lord.
I've raised a bug report for Vyr's archon not freezing targets with arcane strike and arcane blast unless the cold rune is selected (loosely tied to Manald heal as this bug is a further crutch for Halo of Arlyse. (okay VERY loosley tied)

Please comment and/or upvote that topic if like me you'd like to see that bug resolved.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752367339#1
Interesting. Never noticed this before.

It can be either cold rune on bar or cold damage on gear though. Cold damage on gear with a non-cold rune on bar with Vyr2 will also cause the strike and blast to freeze things.
The Archon beam has a speed coefficient greater than 1, does it not? Like 2? Ohhhh man...


3

Speed co efficient of 3...

Yeah I'm thinking this ring could be very good for lightning archon.
Have for a few days now, but kept it to myself, wiz club rules...

If it has a ICD though then it's all for naught anyway.

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