Manaldo Mechanics

Wizard
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11/27/2016 09:19 AMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
Interesting. Never noticed this before.

It can be either cold rune on bar or cold damage on gear though. Cold damage on gear with a non-cold rune on bar with Vyr2 will also cause the strike and blast to freeze things.


Ah didn't notice this either.
Did a few t13s with build no surprise here on t13 it melts everything, but so do 90% of the builds, this look to me simply like another TR t13 build, and I am not sure wizzards need that, as they have only 1 pushing build.

The way I see it it's not the numbers that are bad but the legendary power. Instead of only procing of paralysis it should proc when you stun an enemy.

Stunned enemies take 13000-14000% weapon damage from lightning.

You can stun an enemy with many skills. This should also work on rutted, frozzen... So you can have like frost nova, calamity, slow time, all of them to proc it. Then this ring can be used with multiple of builds, DMO can maybe even use it?
DMO could not, as its damage multi is not global like Tal Rasha. DMO would not boost Manald Heal procs.

Channeled speed coefficients matter, but so too do the number of Manald Heal procs per successful Paralyze check. Electrocute gets 10+ (?) per successful check I think (assuming VC, MBOH). Static Discharge might be 2-5+ (?) per successful check, and thus be inferior despite any speed coefficient advantage.

Large differences would be easy to detect in just a couple Ghom edps tests.
11/27/2016 12:16 PMPosted by Vox
DMO could not, as its damage multi is not global like Tal Rasha. DMO would not boost Manald Heal procs.

Channeled speed coefficients matter, but so too do the number of Manald Heal procs per successful Paralyze check. Electrocute gets 10+ (?) per successful check I think (assuming VC, MBOH). Static Discharge might be 2-5+ (?) per successful check, and thus be inferior despite lower speed coefficient.

Large differences would be easy to detect in just a couple Ghom edps tests.


Thanks for shedding more light on this Vox,

Is it possible for anyone on PTR to test static discharge and disintegration wave?
11/27/2016 12:16 PMPosted by Vox
Channeled speed coefficients matter, but so too do the number of Manald Heal procs per successful Paralyze check. Electrocute gets 10+ (?) per successful check I think (assuming VC, MBOH).


Very much this, which is why MH is so good for Electroctute, particularly Chain Lightning + VC which is 20 procs per successful Paralyze check assuming Myken's and at least 2 targets. MH is actually a very well designed item in this regard because it catapults Electrocute builds from like mid 60's into the mid 80's (possibly higher?) by making it super good for multi target scenarios while not being OP for single targets. And with the speed coefficent 2 on Electrocute + Stricken, you can stack the gem fast on RGs and take them down in a decent time frame with just Electrocute, which is something we've never been able to do before.

The build is very much ranged oriented, but it still needs a little more of a bump, especially with survivability. If they keep MH a ring, then we'd need shoulders or boots that offer a survivability boost for such a build if it wants to get past the mid 80's I think.

MH in a pure Lightning Vyr's setup is also very good, like I alluded to before in my initial post here. Personally, I'm just kinda burnt out on Archon stuff since it's been like top tier for several Seasons/Eras now. And you guys know me by now. I'm always looking for new things even if they're not cutting edge ladder climbing builds and are at least 2nd tier while letting me play the builds I want to play. Like right now, FB Archon is still tops, but most of our other builds are actually all VERY close to one another in terms of ladder climbing performance. TR EB/SD, Chain Lightning TR, TR Sigil Meteor, some Blades builds, DMO Obliterate, DMO Twister, DMO Spark, DMO Orbit, etc. They're all now capable of mid to high 80's, which means our situation is improving... slowly but surely. We might just need a few more Legendaries, particularly in the shoulder, boot, amulet, and maybe weapon slot, to get these other builds into top tier competitive status.
11/27/2016 03:14 PMPosted by Malakai
The build is very much ranged oriented, but it still needs a little more of a bump, especially with survivability.

After a little more testing, I found a sidegrade to damage, but toughness increase can be had by dropping Bastions of Will.

Pick up CoE + Unity in the cube, wear Manald Heal. Like this:
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/937816959

The spike damage during Lightning CoE phase is insane - when you get lucky with procs elite health can go from 100% to 25% in one phase. Actually kind of reminds me of the Demon hunter builds with Fan of Knives and CoE.

I also tested Aquila in place of VC, but it seemed like too much damage loss.

Overall though - I agree, would be better if MH were shoulder / boots or if there were more toughness options in shoulder / boots for Tal.
11/27/2016 03:37 PMPosted by Cratic
Pick up CoE + Unity in the cube, wear Manald Heal. Like this:


For sure, and it works well. I like the CoE + Unity + MH trio in a more pure SD setup like this, though:

TR6 (head, ammy, chest, gloves, belt, pants), Mantle of Channeling, APD, CoE, MH, Nilfur's, Etched Sigil, Deathwish. Cube Unity, Infinite Depth, Hergbrashes. Stricken, Trapped, Taeguk.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#QehlSO!dVhi!cYcZcY

It's a very straightforward channeling build that totally relies on MH procs to kill stuff. It's basically a stripped down version of that EB Sigil TR build I posted about, so instead of having a ton of CDR rolls you replace them with survivability and/or attack speed rolls. It's fun watching RGs explode in seconds.
Not that it would solve the issues being brought up with regard to this ring or lightning wiz and its "supporting" items in general, but I've been hoping we'd get a Lightening Disintegrate rune for ages now. Chaos Nexus seems like an ideal candidate. Volatility is also an option, but the rune effect is just soooo terrible...

PS - Add channeling spells to DMO :)
I wish they had given us Vyr ring instead. GG FB6/Vyr4. With that kind of toughness, over 75% archon uptime with Obsidian Ring, you don't need APD or Halo.

Well probably you would. For GR100, but not it's everyone's cup of tea.
So it's basically a 15% chance to do 14k weapon damage, and requires a passive to make it work. Better than Rimeheart, but not by much. .


Hey, that was what I said! :-)
11/27/2016 04:49 PMPosted by Malakai
TR6 (head, ammy, chest, gloves, belt, pants), Mantle of Channeling, APD, CoE, MH, Nilfur's, Etched Sigil, Deathwish. Cube Unity, Infinite Depth, Hergbrashes. Stricken, Trapped, Taeguk.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#QehlSO!dVhi!cYcZcY

It's a very straightforward channeling build that totally relies on MH procs to kill stuff. It's basically a stripped down version of that EB Sigil TR build I posted about

Loved playing that build. Tried out this exact setup and it works pretty good, I just don't like the Taeguk (can never keep the stacks up).

After a lot of testing (maybe 30 rifts) I finally settled on a more traditional Halo / APD setup with a twist.

I found out you can drop the Hergbrashes' since you have room for RCR in this build. I put RCR on shoulder and source, put a topaz in the helm, and ran Conduit + LoH on bracers.

This allows you to pick up Aquila for extra tankiness, while still having huge damage from Endless walk:
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/807430356
  • https://youtu.be/O_0LFQX4fv0

AS on gear + PE allows you to regularly hit the 7.5 to 8.57 breakpoints for AT:SD within density. You don't even need stricken for the boss.

Manald Heal seems to proc in groupings. Feels similar to when you have a Broken Promises equipped on a Monk. Periods of little to no damage then huge damage spikes.

Video shows a 9m 20s clear @ GR80. I can see this build or similar hitting 85 after augmentation and some fishing without too much issue. Loving that AT:SD and Electrocute are <somewhat> back.
11/27/2016 10:51 PMPosted by Cratic
https://youtu.be/O_0LFQX4fv0


That's awesome!

Have you tried dropping Halo to see if you can get away without it? With Frozen Solid + Paralysis, you might not need it. Could run Unity + Force/Prismatic Armor. Or even CoE?
11/28/2016 07:50 AMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
11/27/2016 10:51 PMPosted by Cratic
https://youtu.be/O_0LFQX4fv0

That's awesome!

Have you tried dropping Halo to see if you can get away without it?

Thanks! This is getting fun.

Etched + CoE might work but itd be a huge toughness loss, plus the 20% multi with dropping OID.

Funny how I didnt think to circle back to Malakai's idea after adding Aquila.

I dont think the build gains much from Unity over halo, since it's more melee centric, but cant hurt to test it.

Good ideas! Ill test as soon as I can.
Thank you for the mechanics Vox, I'll admit I did limited builds and extremely skeptical testing on PTR so far so thanks for going the extra mile here, this makes it a little more attractive and nice to know I been using the wrong skills for it I thought it was Thrown Blades or go home due to FoD..makes sense it works better with Electrocute / AT:SD and things with better speed coefficients.

I still come to Vox's conclusion as well. This ring is only good for 1 set and that's TR. Can't be used for DMO, Can't really be used for Firebird effectively and Vyr's has inferior damage so it has no niche. TR6/Vyr2 and TR6 / WoH still beat it on the speed front and Fire Archon / TR/Vry's Archon, DMO Orbit/Spark/Orb still beat it on the progressive GR part and that's what we've been hammering at the PTR feedback threads since day one. No niche.

Unfortunately how things are right now the only niche this will likely ever have is if they buff Vyr's with a damage modifier then you have an instant win but that's not going to happen this patch so the ring must be changed again.
Did some testing with Vyr's, seems AT:SD kills archon beam handily in any situation, it's not even close. Not sure if archon beam is working correctly with it, but that seems to be the case with everything archon beam related (LoH).

The MH procs with AT:SD and 5 APS are killer!! Again though the problem with this is uptime, I feel Tal setup still has the advantage here especially after you include PE which makes the Vyr's buff irrelevant in some density, not to mention the added 2-3k weapon damage a second x 31 modifier up all the time. Vyr's just can't compete consistently and the way the ring works is you MUST have consistency since it's inconsistent in nature and that's not what Vyr's is.'

EDIT UPDATE: Hmm an incoming late update, wonder what this is all about? Could be the one they planned on after the break..assumed tomorrow but early would be nice!
11/28/2016 02:54 PMPosted by MasterJay
Did some testing with Vyr's, seems AT:SD kills archon beam handily in any situation, it's not even close. Not sure if archon beam is working correctly with it, but that seems to be the case with everything archon beam related (LoH).

The MH procs with AT:SD and 5 APS are killer!! Again though the problem with this is uptime, I feel Tal setup still has the advantage here especially after you include PE which makes the Vyr's buff irrelevant in some density, not to mention the added 2-3k weapon damage a second x 31 modifier up all the time. Vyr's just can't compete consistently and the way the ring works is you MUST have consistency since it's inconsistent in nature and that's not what Vyr's is.'

EDIT UPDATE: Hmm an incoming late update, wonder what this is all about? Could be the one they planned on after the break..assumed tomorrow but early would be nice!


AT:SD may be killing the beam because the two lightning bolts also proc paralysis AFAIK

Still disappointing for Archon.

Did it at least offer more DPS then halo/EW setups?
11/28/2016 03:37 PMPosted by Christos
AT:SD may be killing the beam because the two lightning bolts also proc paralysis AFAIK

Still disappointing for Archon.

Did it at least offer more DPS then halo/EW setups?


Oh yah that's probably it

and yes it does but it's too squishy you need to survive for more stacks and not good enough for speeds

all in all pretty disappointing besides the 5 aps AT:SD eating elites and RG alive in seconds, the spikes are insane!
11/27/2016 10:51 PMPosted by Cratic
After a lot of testing (maybe 30 rifts) I finally settled on a more traditional Halo / APD setup with a twist.

I found out you can drop the Hergbrashes' since you have room for RCR in this build. I put RCR on shoulder and source, put a topaz in the helm, and ran Conduit + LoH on bracers.

This allows you to pick up Aquila for extra tankiness, while still having huge damage from Endless walk:

http://ptr.d3planner.com/807430356
https://youtu.be/O_0LFQX4fv0


Nice setup, I like it. I didn't think to use RCR + Conduit instead of more Toughness rolls, so right on for that.

I think the biggest difference between that and the one I posted about is that yours has more consistent damage output due to EW, and mine is a bit more bursty due to CoE. Toughness should be about the same since I'm using Unity and a bunch of VIT rolls instead of Aquila and RCR. I really do like using Force Armor + Frozen Solid + Sigil, though, over Halo + Ice Armor. Mostly due to certain RGs which can wreck us easily. Force Armor lets us face tank them a lot better. Your setup still probably has more potential than mine due to the consistency of EW, though.

11/27/2016 10:51 PMPosted by Cratic
Video shows a 9m 20s clear @ GR80. I can see this build or similar hitting 85 after augmentation and some fishing without too much issue. Loving that AT:SD and Electrocute are <somewhat> back.


For sure 85 is doable. I missed it by just a few seconds last night, and then I had to go in to work so I couldn't keep pushing. If you look at the PTR Leaderboard, though, you'll see that I did manage an 83 in 10 minutes using the pure channeling setup I talked about. The RG died in like 8 seconds or something silly.

EDIT: Ok, 85 down now in 12:55. Probably won't keep trying to climb since I'm out of GR keys. They should disable the need for keys on PTR IMO, or make those bags you get from that new PTR vendor have like 500 of them in them so we can expedite the testing process.
Also, assuming that with SD if the initial tick procs Paralysis then all other side bolts and ticks in that cast (not entire channel obviously) will as well, and thus MH, then it would make sense to try and bunch everything up super tight.

So we take Cratic's varation of the SD channeled build, drop Aquila, replace with Ranslor's, and replace Blizzard with Mistral Breeze. The result is that it almost feels like an Exploding Palm Monk. Pull all the trash mobs together and everything just blows up at the same time pretty much. Survivability is obviously down a bit, but if you can work it then it's a lot of fun and highly effective.
11/28/2016 09:21 AMPosted by Cratic
Etched + CoE might work but itd be a huge toughness loss, plus the 20% multi with dropping OID.

Sadly, I couldn't make it without OID. Kept dying to ranged mobs. Even with a melee rift it'd be really tough going without the 60% melee reduction from Halo.

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