Manaldo Mechanics

Wizard
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I am in the southernmost state in our glorious Union. Im not describing the problem well. Sometimes when I cast teleport on the PTR with AW equipped, the skill refuses to function.


Are you low on AP and using Wormhole/Cosmic Strand?

With Wormhole, the second teleport won't work unless you have enough AP to actually cast teleport. Even though it's free.

If it's not that, I got nuttin.
12/02/2016 01:56 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
With Wormhole, the second teleport won't work unless you have enough AP to actually cast teleport. Even though it's free.

I hate that bug.

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Well - I found a way to make FB electrocute function. I swapped in Aquila for toughness (dropped VC). You already have OID, but without Halo, it can get rocky at times. Using Zei + Paralysis to proc APDs but its so inconsistent. Was thinking Calamity might be better for control, but the 25% dr from safe passage is nice.

Just cleared 85, barely in time - same deal, with unaugmented, 11.5k INT.
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/662992102

Feels so disjointed to play, and very hard to ignite elites, but somehow it works on the right rift.

EDIT: after testing a bit more, feels like a ranged electrocute build, but you have to play more mid-range to keep APD and OID in play.
Same for FB AT:SD with Manald. GR85 in 14m.
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/494926590

I like the AW + Ranslors for this one. Gives you more progress and the ability to survive.
Just did some video analysis of Manald and Paralysis.

Equipped Tal set with electrocute @ 2.04 char sheet AS, wearing Shame of Delsere. Went up against the Butcher, so single target.

The main thing I wanted to see was if the Manald was proccing extra if you have extra attacks hitting your target when paralysis occurs.

I took 4 Paralysis procs from each the first two electrocute tests, and 6 paralysis procs from the AT:SD test. I compared the timings and the number of Manald procs. Keep in mind that my video editing software does keyframing, and I'm only looking at these keyframes (which occur about every .033s).

Test 1: Tal build with no extra attacks hitting the boss (only Electrocute).

Timings (time in seconds where I noted the Manald damage) from the video:
  • Paralysis Proc #1: || 9.90 || 10.06 || 10.46 || 10.93 || (4 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #2: || 11.96 || 12.13 || 12.40 || 12.73 || 13.03 || (5 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #3: || 17.36 || 17.83 || 17.96 || 18.43 || (4 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #4: || 29.43 || 29.56 || 29.73 || 30.06 || 30.13 || 30.33 || 30.46 || (7 Manald procs)

Test 2: Tal build with Frost Hydra and Twister:Wicked Wind hitting the boss along with Electrocute.

Timings (time in seconds where I noted the Manald damage) from the video:
  • Paralysis Proc #1: || 10.76 || 10.93 || 11.06 || (3 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #2: || 27.50 || 28.26 || 28.40 || (3 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #3: || 38.76 || 39.36 || 39.50 || 39.66 || 39.96 || 40.26 || 40.63 || (7 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #4: || 42.13 || 42.96 || 43.26 || 43.56 || (4 Manald procs)

Test 3: Tal build with AT:SD channeling (only source of lightning damage).

Timings (time in seconds where I noted the Manald damage) from the video. Note where I write (2X) that means a set of 2, (1X) is one time, etc.
  • Paralysis Proc #1: || 14.73 (2X) || 15.20 (1X) || 15.63 (1X) || 15.80 (1X) || 16.20 (1X) || 16.68 (1X) || 17.10 (1X) || 17.43 (1X) || 17.73 (1X) || (10 Manald procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #2: || 37.00 (2X) || 37.16 (1X) || <Boss Dead> | (3 Manald Procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #3: || 9.80 (2X) || 9.93 (1X) || 10.10 (2X) || 11.00 (1X) || (6 Manald Procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #4: || 15.36 (1X) || 15.50 (2X) || 15.63 (1X) || (4 Manald Procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #5: || 18.06 (2X) || 18.33 (1X) || 18.80 (1X) || (4 Manald Procs)
  • Paralysis Proc #6: || 34.50 (1X) || 35.23 (1X) || 35.40 (2X) || 35.53 (1X) || <Boss Dead> || (5 Manald Procs)

Curious things about this data:

1) Time between Manald procs is inconsistent. Difference is about anywhere from .1 to .4s for Electrocute, .1 to .9s for AT:SD. Not quite sure what to make of this. Maybe an ICD, could also just be my spells not attacking consistently, or damage display not popping up consistently, on the other hand.

2) AT:SD shows a proc series longer than 1.5s. The reason could be one of two things:
  • Paralysis proc refresh occurred during the series.
  • AT:SD bolts that are in transit when Paralysis is active on the target can proc Manald when they land, even if they land after the 1.5s window.

Takeaways:
  • Manald can deal damage multiple times per Paralysis proc, assuming the player is channeling or continually attacking the target.
  • Lightning damage appears to be what procs Manald damage (only tested lightning damage from wizard so far).
  • Additional damage from non-lightning sources does not proc Manald any faster.
  • AT:SD can proc Manald in sets of 2 (at the same time). See: http://imgur.com/cY1Txhx
  • EDIT (12/4/2016): Different Electrocute chains can proc Manald in multiples of two at the same time, on the same target. Not sure if they can proc in multiples higher than two yet. See: http://imgur.com/tHDwcSB
  • EDIT (12/4/2016): Confirmed Manald can proc on different targets at near the same time (at least within .033s of one another). This is from looking at slow motion on an electrocute rift video. See: http://imgur.com/v6mDX6N

Conjecture/Discussion:
  • In the case of electrocute, any lightning damage, whether it was chained from a previous attack on a different target, or from a new attack, counts toward attempting to proc Manald damage.
  • Haven't been able to confirm or deny existence of an ICD as yet. Double procs certainly weigh against the possibility of one.
  • EDIT (12/4/2016): Just checked my electrocute video, and noted instances where separate lightning chains procced Manald damage at the same time on the same target. Seems to indicate that there might not be an ICD.
  • AT:SD seems to be augmented futher by it's Paralysis check, which when "rolled", appears to apply to multiple bolts (at least 3 since it's a speed coefficient of 3) and their side bolts, which can pierce. You can see this in testing when you get a paralysis proc on a group of mobs, dragging AT:SD quickly across the screen to hit other enemies will also proc Paralysis on them.
  • When you factor in all the potential Manald procs from subsequent lightning damage, you can see how this single target legendary effect can seem like AoE at times. You can see it with Electrocute too. Zapping a crowd of ~10 monsters but doing near no damage. Once paralysis procs from at least one of your attacks, they blow up at near the same time due to Manald.
  • What this means for archon form: Beam will be definitively better for spreading Paralysis procs, and allowing additional Manald damage.
Something we'll need to test at some point is if other player's lightning damage (such as from a monk) can assist in proccing the Manald after the wizard procs Paralysis. Other player should probably test with and without wearing the ring.

If a high AS Flying dragon lightning monk can help deal tons more damage, might be a little thing to think about.

I've assumed that only wizard lightning spells can do this, but never actually tested to find out.
And here's Tal Electrocute - Cleared 85 with about a minute to spare. Would have been more if I wasn't in la-la land on the RG and just before then. There's something about the gentle zap sound of electrocute that is relaxing.
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/976842555
  • https://youtu.be/QrTxPqULUJ0

Another AW build - great for Electrocute because you have to skip so many elites with this one. Mostly go around finding progress from large or medium white mob types. Also works pretty well for some of the low hp fodder type maps, but slightly less so since I had to drop Velvet Cameral.

I opted for Frost Hydra, because - why the hell not? it helps proc Trapped at range right? Frozen solid would also be a good alternate for ranged packs, but I didn't want to force more CC immunity on an already CC heavy build.

It's really a melee electrocute build anyway. You want to be close in to proc PE and get more chain lightnings stacked up for quicker damage once Paralysis procs and Manald goes hog wild. For this reason you will likely do better against RGs with pets.

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If you watch close in the video, you'll see times like this where manald procs insanely fast (and the chains double proc). For this elite pack, went from half health to dead in about 2s. My video couldn't even keep up!
  • https://youtu.be/QrTxPqULUJ0?t=261

Another Example here:
  • https://youtu.be/QrTxPqULUJ0?t=234
Something interesting to note with this video testing living lightning (yes I know it's a 95 with a guy @ 21k INT, 2.8k paragon bla bla, ignore that for the moment will you?)
  • https://youtu.be/OZIrWjxPqfo

Note how often living lightning is proccing Manald in density. Seems to be quite high due to the tick rate of the spell.

I've cleared an 82 with a pure Living lightning Tal6 build, haven't really pushed it far, but it seems to perform better than Spectral blade for proccing Manald, and that's with using Shame + FoD in the comparison.
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but did anyone try Manald with the Wyrdward ring? and how was it? Sorry if I missed it in the discussion but I didn't have time to read absolutely everything.
Sadly it's still way too weak when compared with Archon, then again all wizard skills are in that boat. I'm hoping for further buffs/changes otherwise this will be another DOA item.
12/04/2016 09:08 AMPosted by Jamuus
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but did anyone try Manald with the Wyrdward ring? and how was it? Sorry if I missed it in the discussion but I didn't have time to read absolutely everything.


It procs from Paralysis stuns only. So no point in Wyrdward. Also, it's hard enough to give up one ring for Manald. Giving up a second for Wyrdward is all but impossible for most of our builds that could make use of Manald.
12/04/2016 06:59 AMPosted by Cratic
Something interesting to note with this video testing living lightning (yes I know it's a 95 with a guy @ 21k INT, 2.8k paragon bla bla, ignore that for the moment will you?)
  • https://youtu.be/OZIrWjxPqfo

Note how often living lightning is proccing Manald in density. Seems to be quite high due to the tick rate of the spell.

I've cleared an 82 with a pure Living lightning Tal6 build, haven't really pushed it far, but it seems to perform better than Spectral blade for proccing Manald, and that's with using Shame + FoD in the comparison.


This is very interesting. I suppose this could open of the weapon slot options. I know you're a big fan of AW + Calamity, but what if we push this build slightly more Arcane Orbit and use Living Lightning as a strong backup damage dealer?
12/05/2016 04:30 PMPosted by caracc
This is very interesting. I suppose this could open of the weapon slot options. I know you're a big fan of AW + Calamity, but what if we push this build slightly more Arcane Orbit and use Living Lightning as a strong backup damage dealer?


At minimum, Orbit dps will lose 50% edps from lost COE, any arcane dmg% swapped for lightning dmg%, and a passive, and OOID/Walker/Furnace for Mykens.

This is a nice thought, but complimentary dps from secondary skills very rarely work out. There is far more potential with Star Pact + Manald Heal since 1) no weapon/offhand requirement and 2) meteor boots can be worn with tals. Unfortunately, this combo also starts with 50% edps lost from COE, and lost passive. It just isn't gonna pull ahead of pure DPS source X when COE is involved.
12/04/2016 01:11 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
12/04/2016 09:08 AMPosted by Jamuus
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but did anyone try Manald with the Wyrdward ring? and how was it? Sorry if I missed it in the discussion but I didn't have time to read absolutely everything.


It procs from Paralysis stuns only. So no point in Wyrdward. Also, it's hard enough to give up one ring for Manald. Giving up a second for Wyrdward is all but impossible for most of our builds that could make use of Manald.


I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Wyrdward with no data. Not everything in D3 is logical or follows tool tips (APD stun = freeze comes to mind...). Wyrdward would be BiS (by far) over alternative rings if it increased effective paralysis stuns and MH procs by 200%. Worth testing despite strong prediction that nothing is there. Timed Butcher kills lasting a couple min would work fine for that purpose.
12/05/2016 05:06 PMPosted by Vox
Timed Butcher kills lasting a couple min would work fine for that purpose.

Did two rounds of kills, exactly the same method. Standing by the wall and channeling arcane torrent. Since I didn't want to vary the Manald% I replaced the Wyrdward with a different ring with very similar stats.

The runs with Wyrdward both took almost exactly 6 minutes to kill.
The runs without Wyrdward both took almost exactly 7 minutes to kill.

I'm guessing the difference is because he was stunned more, and therefore not interrupting my channeling as often.

Also opened a quick GR85, on several occasions saw the monsters get stunned by lightning (not by Halo) but were not taking Manald damage during that time.

Likely means Wyrdward does not help proc Manald.
Plus. When regarding Wyrdward, the chance to stun is based on proc co efficients.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/12187048616

Still something to consider if the ring procs manald but it looks like it does not :(
If Bliz is sticking with the mechanic (and it sounds like they are), as an improvement it should be made possible to stack with Wyrdward/Zei gem and any on stun gear secondaries. Gear synergy, it's what the game is built on.
Thanks for testing Wyrdward Cratic. That pretty much confirms it is a bust.
12/06/2016 10:14 AMPosted by Vox
Thanks for testing Wyrdward Cratic. That pretty much confirms it is a bust.

Glad to help.

I just tested Fulminator in higher GR to see if the effect would proc manald more frequently. It didn't look like any extra Manald procs were going off due to the Fulminator's lightning rod strikes. I certainly wasn't clearing any faster.
they should have just redesign and fixed the Talrasha , Vrys and Firebirds instead of giving us a stupid ring!
Cleared GR88 with Tal AT:SD Aquila setup, 12k INT unaugmented, lvl 85 gems:
  • http://imgur.com/OficGN8
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/455391425

Swapped Gogok for Taeguk. You can still meet breakpoints in density with PE alone. MH procs won't come as fast, but the +50% damage bonus is superior I think.

The ramp up isn't an issue if you happen to drop either. Usually your Paralysis doesn't proc until you've been channeling for about 3 seconds anyway, by that time you have at least 6 or 7 stacks.

Thanks again GBrav13 for the suggestion.

I've noted other players on the PTR experimenting with FN:Bone chill in place of Conduit. I also tested ST:Stretch Time for the 10% AS, and both are great options, but I couldn't manage without the Aquila up all the time, sadly.

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