Manaldo Mechanics

Wizard
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11/30/2016 01:18 PMPosted by Gbrav13
Just cleared a GR 70 in 4 minutes with an electrocute build.

I've been noting the same. For GR70, 3.5 to 4 minutes. Then again the slow teleporting on the PTR is likely dragging the time down (up?) a bit.
11/30/2016 01:18 PMPosted by Gbrav13
Procs seem very random. Sometimes I will proc 4-5x in quick succession, other times i wont see a proc after several seconds of electrocute.

Best thing I've found to make Electrocute proc MH more consistent is stack the AS. The sad thing is the only way to get as much AS efficiently as required is to use PE, which automatically makes it a melee build.

However, when using full AS + PE + Gogok + Enchantress you'll have the 3.75 breakpoint by default as long as you have max Gogok stacks. With only 4 enemies affected by PE you get boosted to 4.28. MH procs seem more consistent when at these speeds.

For speed runs, I think consistent procs are more important than using Powerful or even Zei's.
Cleared GR89 with the Tal AT:SD Manald Aquila setup:
  • http://imgur.com/6D6T0kO

12k INT, unaugmented, lvl 87 gems.

Build seems to work well with engaging the Act1 mob types for progression.

Example levels that I was able to progress with:
  • Zombie / Grotesque / Dust eater / dust retcher
  • Golgor / Skeleton Executioner / tomb skeletons / Scavenger
  • Toxic Spider / Webspitter Spider / Ghost / Gravedigger
  • Hellion / Dark Cultist / Unburied / skeletons / Death maiden

Stretching the top end with this build at my test setup at this point. I missed several rifts by less than 5 seconds, and only had 20s to spare when I finally got one. RG was Saxtris. The adds spawned Oculus, and gave PE stacks, it was almost as if I was wearing stricken his health started dropping so fast near the end.
Hey guys, I posted this in the PTR bug report. But we should really try and raise some attention for this issue, because the Deflection bug really lowers the survivability of high APS Electrocute and AT:SD builds that we'll be using for Manald Heal.

Basically, with the channel skills, Deflection always stacks as if you had an APS of 1 regardless of your attack speed.

See here:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752655388
https://youtu.be/Jpp2YVq6OIg
12/06/2016 10:29 PMPosted by Cratic
11/30/2016 01:18 PMPosted by Gbrav13
Just cleared a GR 70 in 4 minutes with an electrocute build.

I've been noting the same. For GR70, 3.5 to 4 minutes. Then again the slow teleporting on the PTR is likely dragging the time down (up?) a bit.
11/30/2016 01:18 PMPosted by Gbrav13
Procs seem very random. Sometimes I will proc 4-5x in quick succession, other times i wont see a proc after several seconds of electrocute.

Best thing I've found to make Electrocute proc MH more consistent is stack the AS. The sad thing is the only way to get as much AS efficiently as required is to use PE, which automatically makes it a melee build.

However, when using full AS + PE + Gogok + Enchantress you'll have the 3.75 breakpoint by default as long as you have max Gogok stacks. With only 4 enemies affected by PE you get boosted to 4.28. MH procs seem more consistent when at these speeds.

For speed runs, I think consistent procs are more important than using Powerful or even Zei's.


whats the conclusion on Vyr's beam? I could not get it to compare to ATSD when I tried. Why is it that it does not work as well? Is is it just the SD aspect giving the extra MH procs? Or is there some aspect of the archon beam that is not working well? Seems like 5 AS would be awesome.

Edit: could just be my gameplay :)
12/09/2016 01:06 PMPosted by aloc
Vyr's beam? I could not get it to compare to ATSD when I tried.

With Vyrs you're lacking the multipliers that Tal Rasha provides. Tal6/vyr4 will show better results (damage wise) than Vyr6. It still gets AS buff, just not as high, but with the multiplier.

I haven't done frame by frame yet for the archon beam, but I'd expect it's similar to AT:SD in that it can proc manald fairly quickly in succession, being a speed co of 3, but I don't expect it able to proc multiple at the same time (since it's only one attack vs the AT:SD side bolts).

EDIT: see below comment for a sample video analysis of the beam:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752207091?page=6#post-108
By the way, I did test MH with this weapon:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/shard-of-hate

At high AS, the visual effect was awesome, but other than that, it didn't seem to do anything other than test my graphics card.

No additional MH procs from lightning damage items, the same result as fulminator.
So I was trying no Halo Tal6/Vyr4 Archon with Manald Heal (+ Obsidian + RoRG) today.

Was tricky trying to survive without Halo. Is actually a bigger issue in Archon than out, since out of Archon you have TP: Calamity. Tried Blood Bracers with Galvanizing Ward + Deflection. Tried to work in cold Archon so that Archon freezes, but that wasn't really working. Tried Point of No Return (since Archon inherits the bubble rune). Ended up settling on Ice Armor: Ice Reflect. It's surprising consistent for melee enemies.

Might be worth a shot for some pure Tal's MH builds too.
12/09/2016 01:43 PMPosted by Cratic
I haven't done frame by frame yet for the archon beam, but I'd expect it's similar to AT:SD in that it can proc manald fairly quickly in succession

Just did the frame analysis on some impromptu footage - and noted MH procs from the beam within as low as .066 seconds of one another on the same target.
Base AS for my test was with 1.83 sheet AS + 15% gogok + 178 archon / swami stacks. This is about 4.75 AS which meets the 15 t/s BP. Average time between procs at this AS were between .066 and .2 seconds.

EDIT: revised Attack speed calc above to match number of archon stacks in video. Fixed typo (.066, not .666.)

So yes, it can proc and deal damage very quickly.

However, did not see multiple procs on the same target at the exact same time.

Here is a sample from the video, where I attacked 3 elite phase beasts that were tightly grouped together. Hit them with the beam after just going into archon (did not hit them until I went into archon). They all died within .4 seconds! Holy hell! (only a GR75, but still .. quick! ).

Marks for "X" note Manald damage procs on that target, at the time indicated. Time is in seconds (based on the start of the video).

Time (s):-------|| 16.500 || 16.700 || 16.766 || 16.900 ||
Phase Beast #1: ||.....X....||..........||.....X....||.....X....|| DEAD
Phase Beast #2: ||.....X....||....X....||....X....||..........|| DEAD
Phase Beast #3: ||..........||..........||.....X....||.....X....|| DEAD

Note how close the procs were for target #2! Insane procs for doing 230B+ damage per proc near the end of the beam, and that's with my gimpy setup.

One other appeal of the beam is it's screen coverage. It can proc paralysis on large groups, and deal Manald damage to any enemy within this "Pie slice". Makes it very much like an AoE damager, even though it deals individual procs.
As far as gearing for AS goes with Archon, assuming a 50 stack Fazula's:
  • Paragon
  • Weapon roll
  • Ring roll (one)
  • Chest roll
  • Gogok
  • Fazula
  • Enchantress

Puts you at 2.88 AS, which is the 10 ticks/s BP for the Disintegration wave.

With ~81 archon/swami stacks (31 additional after Fazula) you hit the 12 t/s BP.
With ~130 archon/swami stacks (80 additional after Fazula) you hit the 15 t/s BP.

With enough archon/swami stacks you wouldn't even need Enchantress.

This is something that Tal6 AT:SD really can't reasonably do.
12/09/2016 02:20 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
Ended up settling on Ice Armor: Ice Reflect. It's surprising consistent for melee enemies.

Might be worth a shot for some pure Tal's MH builds too.

Wow! nice pick -

Do you happen to know if the damage taken is applied before or after an ice reflect proc? Is it similar to how Halo works?
12/09/2016 03:38 PMPosted by Cratic
Do you happen to know if the damage taken is applied before or after an ice reflect proc? Is it similar to how Halo works?


No idea, sorry! Not even sure how one could go about testing that.
12/09/2016 03:50 PMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
12/09/2016 03:38 PMPosted by Cratic
Do you happen to know if the damage taken is applied before or after an ice reflect proc? Is it similar to how Halo works?

No idea, sorry! Not even sure how one could go about testing that.

Just tested it and filmed a real quick segment. Mobs that are not cc resistant appear to be stunned for 3 seconds by the freeze. As listed by the spell tooltip, it is cast at the location of the attacker.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/9679039002

According to this older thread though, the spell that procs is NOT the same as Frost nova from your bar, even though it does freeze. This means it does not assume any runes you may have on your bar.

I hopped into a GR90 and it certainly feels like damage taken is applied before the proc (and therefore doesn't benefit from APD DR from that hit taken). I was basically getting one or two shot by normal melee mobs, even though they were surrounded by other mobs (so with at least 10 mobs I would have had 110% DR from my 11% APDs + 50% DR Aquila + at least 45% from OID).

Then again, a 60% armor decrease, coupled with the 60% melee DR loss from Halo could cause that too.

This second point is hard to prove (as noted). All I can say is my character feels very defenseless with this rune, whereas I was able to tank groups of mobs & elites at some points on 89 without issue while wearing Halo of Arlyse.
12/09/2016 10:48 PMPosted by Cratic
This second point is hard to prove (as noted). All I can say is my character feels very defenseless with this rune, whereas I was able to tank groups of mobs & elites at some points on 89 without issue while wearing Halo of Arlyse.


Yeah. It's a poor man's Halo. I was coming from the perspective of already running a dozen 90s without Halo with difference configurations, When I swapped to that, I felt a noticable toughness gain compared to things like Point of No Return etc.

So it's better than no Halo, but definitely worse than a Halo. Both in terms of the 60% melee reduction and effective freeze uptime.
Ah that makes sense then - sounds great on paper as filler with no Halo, as long as you have something like Archon boosting your toughess. Would be great if they buffed the rune though, 40% chance is a bit low, not to mention a bit drab.
GR90 down with Tal6 AT:SD:
  • https://youtu.be/GvUH_UsIkjg

Great rift with nice mix of:
  • Armored Destroyer / Blood Clan Warrior / Plague Carrier / Corpse Raider / Skeletal Beast / Demonic Hellflyer / Anarch / Terror Demon / Winged Assassin / Sand Wasp
  • Got The Binder as RG (again boss with Pets).

Only had to fish 15 rifts this time. Either I got luckier or I'm just playing the build better, maybe both.
In case anyone is interested, here are some updated Electrocute MH builds:

Tal6/FB2 Electrocute with Endless Walk. GR87 clear:
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/745641381
  • https://youtu.be/3z_P0FR1Dw8

FB6 Electrocute with Endless Walk, OID, Aquila. GR87 clear:
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/702083285
  • https://youtu.be/IWm2dsvg7lU

I think I prefer the FB6 for electrocute, even with having to ignite enemies, it seems like you don't have to fish as much for a good rift thanks to the tankiness.

Here also is a Tal6 Electrocute GR60-75+ speed setup. GR70 @ 3.5m shown:
  • http://ptr.d3planner.com/807956977
  • https://youtu.be/l_Ob2-8CnAc

Really wanted to include the nemesis bracers for this one, but too much loss of defense. Staying alive saves more time overall. Very similar to Malakai's original build (thank you!).

-----

While it's great that electrocute is able to do these sort of things now, all of these builds are melee-ish due to having to include Pain Enhancer - logical choices then become OID, Halo, etc.

Ranged electrocute is just too hard to put together and have it work well with MH. It simply can't hit the attack speed breakpoints efficiently without PE. The other problem is not enough DR, etc.

You might be able to do something with stretch time, Gogok, and maybe Witching hour to solve the AS issue, but defense would still be too low IMO.
12/03/2016 10:36 PMPosted by Cratic
Something we'll need to test at some point is if other player's lightning damage (such as from a monk) can assist in proccing the Manald after the wizard procs Paralysis.

It can't.
The damage is dependant on the Paralysis condition, which is lightning SPELLS, and monk doesn't have any spells.

12/06/2016 03:20 PMPosted by Cratic
I just tested Fulminator in higher GR to see if the effect would proc manald more frequently. It didn't look like any extra Manald procs were going off due to the Fulminator's lightning rod strikes. I certainly wasn't clearing any faster.

And it shouldn't according to the before mentioned reason, it is not a lightning spell, but just lightning damage.

Etched Sigil casts however should cause the effect correctly.
Hello dear wizards.
I had an idea with the MH. Not a good idea, but not a bad one either.

I was thinking of a LoN Archon Lighting MH. It is well known that LoN multipliers are not enough for the Wizard class, but I had a couple of thoughts.

http://ptr.d3planner.com/929966372
(it has two setups, but obviously skills, gems, gear may change).

I was planning a possible Tal/Vyr MH, which is dealing a big decent amount of damage with MH and looks nice (along with Cratic's Tal AT:SD)
So, MH damage output is:
Tal/Vyr > LoN archon > Tal AT:SD.

This LoN archon is dealing very low damage with archon abilities, so Archon is just a carrier for Fazula and Swami multipliers. So, while having overlapping stacks it deals big amounts of MH damage.
The main + to this,is that it has a "20 second window" instead of an 8 second window of Tal/Vyr.
And a quick reset may be easily achieved. (Gogok and/or In-geom)
Also, toughness seems high and APDs can proc from Paralysis.

But, there are some drawbacks of course.
1. Lack of mobility, so not optimal for speeding rifts. Contrary, Aether or Teleport help a lot in progression.
2. Low attack speed compared to Vyr4 or AT:SD.
3. it is LoN, so it is expensive.

unfortunately, I run out of Bounty mats and cannot go to PTR and test it!
Basically, the thought was big multipliers and a big hitting window.

I believe, we can have some nice discussion and criticism.
Have a good day!
12/12/2016 02:58 AMPosted by KiWeN
Etched Sigil casts however should cause the effect correctly.


Etched Sigil casts don't trigger Paralysis stuns, so probably don't trigger Manald Heal. At least the couple skills I tested didn't. I doubt it works with anything though. Paralysis rolls on cast to see if it stuns things. Etched Sigil doesn't cast things. It's sort of the same as TR4/TR6 in that regard. Etched Sigil doesn't trigger those either, because it doesn't count as you physically casting the skill.
12/12/2016 04:15 AMPosted by Dragonfire
Also, toughness seems high and APDs can proc from Paralysis.


That's not really reliable. It's going to be squishy set up like that. It's possible to get away without Halo, but it's definitely going to be significantly squishier than any builds including Halo. It sounds better on paper than it is in practice.

And you're going to want Gogok I think. Even with Leoric's Crown, you are only looking at about 8 seconds of overlap time for Swami. Gogok brings that up to about 13 seconds. With the Tal/Vyr you can get away with only 8 seconds of overlap because that's how long the Tal stacks last for anyway. But for LoN you wouldn't have that restriction, so I think you'll want to maximize overlap time to maximize your DPS.

12/12/2016 04:15 AMPosted by Dragonfire
I was planning a possible Tal/Vyr MH, which is dealing a big decent amount of damage with MH and looks nice (along with Cratic's Tal AT:SD)
So, MH damage output is:
Tal/Vyr > LoN archon > Tal AT:SD.


Not so sure about that. D3 planner still calculates Archon + Swami stacks as multiplicative. So those 60b Manald Heal procs you see in D3 planner are more like 25b with additive stacks. And you don't get the side-bolt procs from Tal AT:SD.

It'll be more consistent DPS than Tal/Vyr for sure. But ultimately lower effective DPS without the IAS from Vyr4 and the significantly bigger Tal's multiplier. And it'll be a fair bit squishier than either Tal/Vyr or Tal's AT: SD because you don't have Halo. And I think it's actually behind Tal's AT: SD for effective DPS too, once you calculate with additive Swami and include the additional procs from side bolts for AT: SD.

I'd say it'd be better for speedfarming than Tal/Vyr because it has more consistent uptime on the multiplier. Except it won't be, because you are forced to run Pure Power and don't get to Teleport in Archon.

I mean, I don't think it will be bad. But it's going to be squishy without Halo, and it's far lower DPS than D3 planner would indicate.

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