Why we need to stop complaining about D3.

General Discussion
Right off the bat I want to make one thing clear, and that is the simple fact that the mass majority of us have no idea what goes into making a game or balancing a game.

This being said we can provide feedback for the general "feel" of the game, our experience with a class or certain set and so on. This feedback that we give is integral to the development of the game and it allows the devs to map out the area in which the game will most likely succeed. Sometimes the areas in which they take the game just aren't that great--and that is fine-- because we as the players are the ones that put them on that path, and with mistakes created they also learn what not to do.

This type of feedback is healthy for the Diablo community as a whole because it shapes the game into the thing we love, and obviously we love this game or we wouldn't be here. Every season offers something new and exciting, be it through set changes, item balancing or class adjustment, and it keeps us entertained.

The type of feedback that does nothing is sitting here and saying "Diablo sucks because the devs won't make this one obscure cryomancer wizard build I want to work be the best build in the game and push GR110+". Complaining about random bull!@#$ that doesn't make any sense helps no one here, it does nothing to shape our game and just stresses out the people who are working tirelessly and testing day in and day out to make our game more enjoyable so we can have some fun.

Lastly we all need to realize the fact that D2 is D2 and D3 is D3. When D3 launched it was a cluster%^-*, it wasn't fun, it was endless grinding, mix matching random sets and other classes gear < everyone had Inna's pants > and dying, and you know why? Blizzard gave us exactly what we begged them for, a D2 remake. See D2 was fun back in the day because there wasn't any other game that was better than it because all games were essentially the same, but over the years we got games that offered side missions, quests, professions, endlessly evolving content, mounts, guilds, pointless tasks, achievements and on and on and on. So when we got a boring grinding game, just like we asked for, we were pissed.

Now we have D3 in it's current state, a game that offers loads of variety, has tons of play styles, tons of variation and content that stays relatively fresh. Is everything great? No, but it's in a lot better place and it continues to move forward and get better and better.

So please, stop !@#$%ing about everything and give some real constructive feedback to the people who make this game awesome, and maybe a thank you for all the time they put into making it better for us.
Just because you seem to think that the D3 team is entitled to do whatever they want because a lot of people don't know what it's like to be a game developer, does not mean that their feedback should not be welcomed. You're completely clueless if you think how people perceive the game doesn't affect sales, and sales is what matters.

The only reason people should stop !@#$%ing about the game on the forum is because nobody in the developer team gives a rat's ^-* about what anyone wants, and they don't care about increasing sales.

So I suggest to you to stop being a white-knight, fanboy, whatever other flag you want to apply yourself under, and stop pretending that you know better than anyone else who is posting on the forum about BS just like you are.

Drop it already.
Silverhearte I don't get what your saying here?

12/22/2016 08:09 PMPosted by Silverhearte
Just because you seem to think that the D3 team is entitled to do whatever they want because a lot of people don't know what it's like to be a game developer, does not mean that their feedback should not be welcomed.


Did you even read my post? I quite literally said that we should give feedback to the team, just be constructive about it. I never once said that the devs are entitled to do whatever they want.

12/22/2016 08:09 PMPosted by Silverhearte
The only reason people should stop !@#$%ing about the game on the forum is because nobody in the developer team gives a rat's ^-* about what anyone wants, and they don't care about increasing sales.


^ This makes no sense at all. The devs have stated on numerous occasions that they come to the forums to see where people are sitting, incorporating a lot of this into the PTR. As far as not caring about increasing sales you must be out of your mind. This is a business, you don't get to be Blizzard Entertainment by not giving a !@#$ about increasing sales.
The hardest part of devs is not balancing skills. Balancing players' buff request is more difficult :)
12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
Right off the bat I want to make one thing clear, and that is the simple fact that the mass majority of us have no idea what goes into making a game or balancing a game.

This being said we can provide feedback for the general "feel" of the game, our experience with a class or certain set and so on. This feedback that we give is integral to the development of the game and it allows the devs to map out the area in which the game will most likely succeed. Sometimes the areas in which they take the game just aren't that great--and that is fine-- because we as the players are the ones that put them on that path, and with mistakes created they also learn what not to do.

This type of feedback is healthy for the Diablo community as a whole because it shapes the game into the thing we love, and obviously we love this game or we wouldn't be here. Every season offers something new and exciting, be it through set changes, item balancing or class adjustment, and it keeps us entertained.

The type of feedback that does nothing is sitting here and saying "Diablo sucks because the devs won't make this one obscure cryomancer wizard build I want to work be the best build in the game and push GR110+". Complaining about random bull!@#$ that doesn't make any sense helps no one here, it does nothing to shape our game and just stresses out the people who are working tirelessly and testing day in and day out to make our game more enjoyable so we can have some fun.

Lastly we all need to realize the fact that D2 is D2 and D3 is D3. When D3 launched it was a cluster%^-*, it wasn't fun, it was endless grinding, mix matching random sets and other classes gear < everyone had Inna's pants > and dying, and you know why? Blizzard gave us exactly what we begged them for, a D2 remake. See D2 was fun back in the day because there wasn't any other game that was better than it because all games were essentially the same, but over the years we got games that offered side missions, quests, professions, endlessly evolving content, mounts, guilds, pointless tasks, achievements and on and on and on. So when we got a boring grinding game, just like we asked for, we were pissed.

Now we have D3 in it's current state, a game that offers loads of variety, has tons of play styles, tons of variation and content that stays relatively fresh. Is everything great? No, but it's in a lot better place and it continues to move forward and get better and better.

So please, stop !@#$%ing about everything and give some real constructive feedback to the people who make this game awesome, and maybe a thank you for all the time they put into making it better for us.


Know your faults, for they are many.
12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
This being said we can provide feedback for the general "feel" of the game, our experience with a class or certain set and so on.


Oh how cute :)...it's like going back in time 4-5 years when there was hope the game would become amazing....lol.....you have a lot of reading to do "Mr. 4 posts"...
I'm waiting for the OP to realize that every major patch since D3 came out have been band-aids trying to make D3 MORE like D2 because they know they screwed up.
There is plenty of constructive criticism and feedback if you cut away all the nonsensical posts.

But even good feedback doesn't necessarily translate to positive changes.

One major problem with D3 is, unfortunately, what Blizzard makes of the feedback. Lots of sensible ideas thrown around over the years, all in an attempt to make this game better but it seems Blizzard simply isn't interested.

This will open the way for accusations that they aren't listening despite good feedback, suggestions and criticisms and the notion that they don't play or understand their own game - all of which has resulted in players being dissatisfied with the game. And when players are dissatisfied with the game, you get forum mayhem.
12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
So please, stop !@#$%ing about everything and give some real constructive feedback


It's in the forums already, and no one ever complains anymore because everyone is tired from beating a dead horse. If I stop complaining will they make the gameplay any better? Can you answer that?
Telling people to provide constructive criticism is a little misleading because it carries an implication that Blizzard is waiting to hear it and act on it. That's not really the case. They don't mind making small changes, but fundamental changes don't come or take forever to topple.

We wanted GR trials removed.
They tweaked them.
We still wanted them removed.
They tweaked them again.
We screamed for trial removal.
Finally, they were removed.

Players say they want more viable build diversity. They buffs sets. Then they buff sets again... and again.

Players say they want something other than rifts. They're bringing challenge rifts.

Players ask for a paragon overhaul. Paragon remains as is going on almost three years. Even gold find hasn't been changed for something of more use.

Players asked to stop feeling forced into playing seasons by way of exclusive items. They remove item exclusivity and then lock stash tabs behind seasons.

Players beg for an expansion. They announce a necro DLC with no additional content.

Players ask for D2HD. They recreate a version of D1 inside of D3 that's only accessible 1 month out of the year.

/shrug

When those are the results, why would anyone continue to provide feedback?
12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
Right off the bat I want to make one thing clear, and that is the simple fact that the mass majority of us have no idea what goes into making a game or balancing a game.

This being said we can provide feedback for the general "feel" of the game, our experience with a class or certain set and so on. This feedback that we give is integral to the development of the game and it allows the devs to map out the area in which the game will most likely succeed. Sometimes the areas in which they take the game just aren't that great--and that is fine-- because we as the players are the ones that put them on that path, and with mistakes created they also learn what not to do.

This type of feedback is healthy for the Diablo community as a whole because it shapes the game into the thing we love, and obviously we love this game or we wouldn't be here. Every season offers something new and exciting, be it through set changes, item balancing or class adjustment, and it keeps us entertained.

The type of feedback that does nothing is sitting here and saying "Diablo sucks because the devs won't make this one obscure cryomancer wizard build I want to work be the best build in the game and push GR110+". Complaining about random bull!@#$ that doesn't make any sense helps no one here, it does nothing to shape our game and just stresses out the people who are working tirelessly and testing day in and day out to make our game more enjoyable so we can have some fun.

Lastly we all need to realize the fact that D2 is D2 and D3 is D3. When D3 launched it was a cluster%^-*, it wasn't fun, it was endless grinding, mix matching random sets and other classes gear < everyone had Inna's pants > and dying, and you know why? Blizzard gave us exactly what we begged them for, a D2 remake. See D2 was fun back in the day because there wasn't any other game that was better than it because all games were essentially the same, but over the years we got games that offered side missions, quests, professions, endlessly evolving content, mounts, guilds, pointless tasks, achievements and on and on and on. So when we got a boring grinding game, just like we asked for, we were pissed.

Now we have D3 in it's current state, a game that offers loads of variety, has tons of play styles, tons of variation and content that stays relatively fresh. Is everything great? No, but it's in a lot better place and it continues to move forward and get better and better.

So please, stop !@#$%ing about everything and give some real constructive feedback to the people who make this game awesome, and maybe a thank you for all the time they put into making it better for us.


No one is complaining because most players got tired of being ignored ^^
What started as constructive criticism has turned into complaints and insults solely due to the ignorance of the CM's and the Devs. If the CM's actually applied the CoC and removed the trolls and if they would have communicated with the community here on the forums who were actually providing constructive feedback, you would not have the toxic environment you have today. This situation is 100% a product of the lack of action/response taken by the Diablo team.
This situation is 100% a product of the game being terrible.


Fixed.
12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
Right off the bat I want to make one thing clear, and that is the simple fact that the mass majority of us have no idea what goes into making a game or balancing a game.


It's a simple fact, that even without knowing the details of how the devs work, we can see the results.
We can also judge those results based on whether the result matches the original intent. I will give you a very specific example below.

12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
The type of feedback that does nothing is sitting here and saying "Diablo sucks because the devs won't make this one obscure cryomancer wizard build I want to work be the best build in the game and push GR110+". Complaining about random bull!@#$ that doesn't make any sense helps no one here


You are clueless. Build diversity aside, the game lacks some basic class diversity.
Two years ago, during Season 1, only 3 out of 6 classes were viable for high GRs.
Now, two years later we're in Season 8 and still 3/6 classes are viable for high GRs.

The classes change every now and then, but these changes are nothing more than revanchism instead of attempt for bringing some balance.

Jay envisioned the game as first and foremost cooperative game. The current devs stick to that, since the rewards for group play are superior to solo play. So far so good.
But when you have a game, that is first and foremost cooperative, you better make sure, that all the chars have at least one viable build for coop. Throughout the seasons, that was never the case.

How many seasons has it been, since DHs had a viable build for coop? Cause I think the last was Season 2.

How is that complaint a "random bull!@#$ that doesn't make any sense"?

12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
Lastly we all need to realize the fact that D2 is D2 and D3 is D3. When D3 launched it was a cluster%^-*, it wasn't fun, it was endless grinding, mix matching random sets and other classes gear < everyone had Inna's pants > and dying, and you know why? Blizzard gave us exactly what we begged them for, a D2 remake.

This is all false. You either never played D2:LoD or you sucked badly at it.

The nonsensical artificial scarcity, the inconsistent item rolls and so on, this has absolutely nothing to do with D2:LoD.

The game still exists, you know. You can buy it, install it on your computer, read some guides (since you clearly don't know how to play), check the itemization and so on.

There was even a ladder reset recently, people formed communities. I am sure someone would be willing to teach you, if you don't act like a know-it-all, when you seem to know nothing.

12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
See D2 was fun back in the day because there wasn't any other game that was better than it

And there isn't a game within the same genre to this day, that is better than D2:LoD. It simply doesn't exist.

The genre did not evolve with DIII. They even failed to make the new game on the same level as the previous one.
The reason for that is, that the DIII development team are just as clueless about this franchise/genre as you are. They didn't create the franchise/genre, they didn't play it and it's apparent. I've seen them show screenshots of modified versions of Diablo, screenshots, that they didn't even create themselves, rather they stole from someone else's gameplay and thought no one would notice.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20751705021

And until you stop being an apologist and start to think for yourself, and until Blizzard finally admit their countless mistakes and change course, the game is not going to change for the better and fools like you will get down voted.

12/22/2016 08:05 PMPosted by Saru
over the years we got games that offered side missions, quests, professions, endlessly evolving content, mounts, guilds, pointless tasks, achievements and on and on and on. So when we got a boring grinding game, just like we asked for, we were pissed.

This is about those other games that you're talking about, and how since 2010 they also took the road of retardation, till it came to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR20QH5UHoM

You think you do, but you don't!
12/23/2016 08:45 AMPosted by Gr8Hornytoad
What started as constructive criticism has turned into complaints and insults solely due to the ignorance of the CM's and the Devs. If the CM's actually applied the CoC and removed the trolls and if they would have communicated with the community here on the forums who were actually providing constructive feedback, you would not have the toxic environment you have today. This situation is 100% a product of the lack of action/response taken by the Diablo team.

You said it well!
I have played since Vanilla and seen all the amazing suggestions and constructive feedback. I have seen tons of players leaving the community because of the developer team. The devs are so arrogant and full of themselves and seem to be completely ignorant. As explained above, by BobWitchDR, the players ask for x and get y and or z lol.
I'm going to play devils advocate here and visit both sides of the fence and inspect how green the grass really is....

1. Game development is VASTLY underrated in complexity .. game engines are some of the most sophisticated software on the planet. The U.S. military has on more then one occasion utilized game engines for simulations because the simulated AI etc was excellent. Simply changing a Boolean in one location can have dramatic effects further in the nested loops conditionals etc. Through into account you don't know what the players will do for sure and the fact that you are trying to code for every eventuality. Yeah it gets ugly really quick

2, Some of the changes requested would infact be incredibly easy for the developers to implement
A. can we all agree on what those changes should be --spend 2 seconds in these forums and it becomes quickly apparent that we cant agree on anything
B. We assume we know the thought process behind their decisions in fact none of use attended those meetings
C. This is their job---are you going to pay them to write the code you want?
3. Blizzard is a company they are running a business. The points made that it behooves them to comply with user requests to generate sales is correct but please refer back to 2A for additional notes :)
Also again refer back to the complexity for making what "APPEARS" a simple change. In my experience 90% (literal 90) of the time a user thinks the change is easy its incredibly difficult maybe even impossible with current knowledge or technology the inverse is true they almost always assume something is impossible when in fact its VERY simple to do
12/23/2016 11:09 AMPosted by ZENRAWTH

1. Game development is VASTLY underrated in complexity


D3 critical flaws came straight from the 'chalkboard' design phase and they have nothing to do with software technicalities.
In fact, technically (now that you mentioned 'engine'), D3 is a good product. While (obviously) at the same time it's conceptually awful.

You can't excuse the inexcusable. It's really that simple.
12/23/2016 11:55 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
12/23/2016 11:09 AMPosted by ZENRAWTH

1. Game development is VASTLY underrated in complexity


D3 critical flaws came straight from the 'chalkboard' design phase and they have nothing to do with software technicalities.
In fact, technically (now that you mentioned 'engine'), D3 is a good product. While (obviously) at the same time it's conceptually awful.

You can't excuse the inexcusable. It's really that simple.


Not to say I agree with your assessment but lets run with the fact it was flawed from day one

What to do the
If you keep adding frosting and sprinkles to a turd------well lets just say it still might be unpleasant

if you build a skyscraper on a Swiss cheese foundation .........

enough analogies though if the you inherited a program where everything that should be a variable is in fact hard coded , there is no comments within the code, Structurally the code layout is a night mare etc...... then yeah it becomes not only a nightmare to maintain but when changes are requested it can be daunting.

The real question if things are at that point is how important is your brand name and product reputation. Personally I would have pulled talent from the other projects and resolved the code issue much earlier. Sometimes a complete re-write is needed more then duct tape.

But alas I don't work for Blizzard so all this is blind speculation. All I'm saying is the we are making a lot of assumptions about what is or is not occurring.
Lets be honest most of the time when people post
A. they are upset
B because they are upset the don't want to hear logic
C happy users rarely just post ---Great job
The real question then as I was alluding to earlier is how does Blizzard truly assess what changes are needed.

All they hear are the complaints
also when was the last time you were "EXCITED" to do something for someone that was yelling and cussing you out??????? Personally my response in the real world tends to be less diplomatic to such people. I applaud their patience with this community.

One last not though If you are going to promise to bring new content and changes then I would personally strive to do more then what appears token effort. Now flipping to the opposite side "once again" Blizzard is notorious for not releasing anything till "they" feel its right ----dosnt always fit with when we think its right :)
12/22/2016 08:40 PMPosted by WCLee
The hardest part of devs is not balancing skills. Balancing players' buff request is more difficult :)
Nowhere near how hard balancing players' expectations is!
12/23/2016 11:09 AMPosted by ZENRAWTH
Game development is VASTLY underrated in complexity


Steering a games overall shape away from boring shallow spoon fed character and item design is not so daunting however........

And that is why the devs are morons. because as simple as it is to brainstorm something more interesting and captivating, they basically chose not to...

Because it will take them years to bring Necromancer back, and the coding will be a convoluted nightmare as you correctly explain......and for all that massive effort the player will be able to look forward to "more mainstat"...."more trifecta"......"more set items in the mail....."

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