Did the players damage Diablo?

General Discussion
Think about Diablo II and the botting that happened. Blizzard probably saw this and d2jsp as a middle man they tried to eliminate to keep their players in the game.

When we saw how easily exploited it was, we complained till it was locked and shut out. Remember the difficulty levels? People complained they were hard and then they introduced individual difficulty levels to customize your leveling experience.

When people had level 60 to reach, they wanted more levels, so they did Paragon, to give them limitless levels.

Items are too crappy and too many that drop are junk! Well, they increased the drop rate for good items, and then in turn, made items incredibly bulky in damage.

Stat placement was taken off because players made errors and complained about having to reset chars all the time in D2. "Wasting points and skills" may have encouraged the removal of stat placement and skill points. In Diablo II, almost every class just pumped 2 main stat points anyway, which is what we do here.

Just some minor observations but these sort of things beg the question, is all the complaining from the community brought onto themselves?

Perhaps the biggest problem was the community and Blizzard (maybe) listening to it. The boring seasons, the endless rifts, paragon levels, 2 stat smashing, no PvP, could the players be to blame?

Thoughts? Insults? Bumblebee Tuna?
No the people didn't ruin D3. All these updates, which players wanted, have shown is that Diablo 3 was ruined from the beginning and we desperately clung to hope that future additions or changes would make us feel any different about it
01/07/2017 07:48 PMPosted by MarioDragon
No the people didn't ruin D3. All these updates, which players wanted, have shown is that Diablo 3 was ruined from the beginning and we desperately clung to hope that future additions or changes would make us feel any different about it


You are missing Onigami's point. A lot of the problems people were complaining about happened more than a decade ago with Diablo 2. Diablo 3 was "updated" as you put it in response to Diablo 2, which is why it was broken "from the beginning."

That said, I don't think Onigami is correct, at least not completely. Diablo 3 was broken from the beginning not because of the changes due to complaints from Diablo 2, but rather because the game was built ground up to be an MMO-style game with an Auction House at its core.

I could live with changes like the Stat allocation issue which was a complaint from D2, but what I can't live with are the bad design choices that resulted from the need to keep players infinitely "online" on a hamster wheel playing Diablo 3, hoping to lure them in to do RMAH purchases to improve their characters once they hit a wall -- and there were infinite walls in the original Diablo 3.

This kind of design is an MMO Freemium model -- keep them playing forever, as long as they are playing a certain number will spend money on the RMAH, and Blizzard makes cash. The problem is that even after the RMAH was removed, they still kept the same design -- god knows why -- and they still introduce an infinite number of walls to gate you and make you want to spend money to progress -- only now there is no in-game shop to spend money on. Instead, you have to pray to the RNG gods to give you what you need.

It's an inherently flawed game design and it's still a mess 5 years later.

Onigami is correct in that Blizzard keeps caving in to players demands. That's a given, as they are following an MMO Freemium model and they want players to keep playing. If the players don't get what they want, they don't keep playing. It's a pathetic way to make a game, showing a complete lack of vision for how Diablo 3 should be. It's sad what's become of this once magnificent franchise.
01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
Perhaps the biggest problem was the community and Blizzard (maybe) listening to it. The boring seasons, the endless rifts, paragon levels, 2 stat smashing, no PvP, could the players be to blame?

What about the developers? Do they not at least share responsibility for this mess?
When the game was designed from concepts such as "weapon equipped governs all skill damage" and "4 stats from wich only 2 are useful" in each class (vitality + damage boost)...

There were games made before I was born with better ideas/viability than this. Heck they should even have used D20 before committing to this.

But I guess dumbing it down worked for some other titles. If they can dumb down a MOBA so much that even consolers may play it, oh boy they will.
01/07/2017 08:00 PMPosted by Hypersonic
01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
Perhaps the biggest problem was the community and Blizzard (maybe) listening to it. The boring seasons, the endless rifts, paragon levels, 2 stat smashing, no PvP, could the players be to blame?

What about the developers? Do they not at least share responsibility for this mess?


They do, but in a way, it's not like they would have known what would have worked and what wouldn't have worked.

If they did listen to the community, and it was what caused them to create something that was broken because of it, they wouldn't have known the reaction until the community had gotten their hands on it and gave feed back.

However, having said that, I cannot help but point out a previous thread that mentioned the developers of Path of Exile, and how they address the community and create solutions for common complaints, as opposed to Blizzard. Even if you're not a Path of Exile player, you can still see the reason behind the two view points from both companies/communities.
01/07/2017 08:00 PMPosted by Hypersonic
01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
Perhaps the biggest problem was the community and Blizzard (maybe) listening to it. The boring seasons, the endless rifts, paragon levels, 2 stat smashing, no PvP, could the players be to blame?

What about the developers? Do they not at least share responsibility for this mess?


All the responsibility is with the developers and the people who pull their strings --the brass at Activision. Players can whine all they want, but the people who actually make the changes and call the shots are the developers and Blizzard. A competent developer wouldn't listen to the bad complaints and implement bad fixes for them.
01/07/2017 08:00 PMPosted by Hypersonic
...
What about the developers? Do they not at least share responsibility for this mess?


All the responsibility is with the developers and the people who pull their strings --the brass at Activision. Players can whine all they want, but the people who actually make the changes and call the shots are the developers and Blizzard. A competent developer wouldn't listen to the bad complaints and implement bad fixes for them.


Well said.
01/07/2017 08:06 PMPosted by Mochan
01/07/2017 08:00 PMPosted by Hypersonic
...
What about the developers? Do they not at least share responsibility for this mess?


All the responsibility is with the developers and the people who pull their strings --the brass at Activision. Players can whine all they want, but the people who actually make the changes and call the shots are the developers and Blizzard. A competent developer wouldn't listen to the bad complaints and implement bad fixes for them.


It's difficult to do that when reddit, forums, emails, and any other avenue of communication like reviews and blogs says, "these changes must happen". The problem with Diablo 3 is it was never good from the start and has no hope of ever being good. From the artstyle to the music to the intro screen there's nothing in Diablo 3 that feels like Diablo, and no rift or 70+ addition will fix that
01/07/2017 10:40 PMPosted by MarioDragon
It's difficult to do that when reddit, forums, emails, and any other avenue of communication like reviews and blogs says, "these changes must happen". The problem with Diablo 3 is it was never good from the start and has no hope of ever being good. From the artstyle to the music to the intro screen there's nothing in Diablo 3 that feels like Diablo, and no rift or 70+ addition will fix that


This begs the question; what would fix D3?

It seems to me, if they're putting work to bringing a new class out for the game, they're not eager to work on D4 just yet, they may not be for a longer amount of time, this game has been out for 6 years now?

Although D3 has "limped" on since it began, it has limped far, you have to admit.
Fanbase didn't know what they want at those times. All those ideas were scattered all over reddit. It was developers' job to filter them and think ahead. Clearly fanbase can't foresee what's infront of them next.
Still, it's the developers' responsibility to recover game from such dread. If incoming ideas put the game in a vicious cycle of grinding then they better come up with solutions.

I love being silently refused by them though, I can imagine them saying "but nothing is wrong with the game?!". That's just expecting more ideas from the fanbase yet fearing about implementing them; because again they lack a logical filter which comes from experience. Otherwise I can't explain why they want to throw RNG over RNG then call it, "Content". I ask again here;" Game has way too many randomizations, do you have any design ideals or not?"

From what I see Blizzard was stuck on WoW and now it's Overwatch may be Hearthstone, because they're latest hotsh!ts. Until that phase ceases there's nothing we can do about D3. They won't take another step.....
I can't foresee it at least....
01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
Think about Diablo II and the botting that happened. Blizzard probably saw this and d2jsp as a middle man they tried to eliminate to keep their players in the game.

When we saw how easily exploited it was, we complained till it was locked and shut out. Remember the difficulty levels? People complained they were hard and then they introduced individual difficulty levels to customize your leveling experience.

When people had level 60 to reach, they wanted more levels, so they did Paragon, to give them limitless levels.

Items are too crappy and too many that drop are junk! Well, they increased the drop rate for good items, and then in turn, made items incredibly bulky in damage.

Stat placement was taken off because players made errors and complained about having to reset chars all the time in D2. "Wasting points and skills" may have encouraged the removal of stat placement and skill points. In Diablo II, almost every class just pumped 2 main stat points anyway, which is what we do here.

Just some minor observations but these sort of things beg the question, is all the complaining from the community brought onto themselves?

Perhaps the biggest problem was the community and Blizzard (maybe) listening to it. The boring seasons, the endless rifts, paragon levels, 2 stat smashing, no PvP, could the players be to blame?

Thoughts? Insults? Bumblebee Tuna?


In what world do you live in where the it's the customers fault for a bad product?
In answer to the OP:
No, it is still up to the developer team to decide how things will be done. It is up to them how to handle player feedback and adjust accordingly to it, within the framework of their design roadmap.

An example is the paragon system: a good idea on paper, but the shortcomings came to light after the new greater rift system came to be. The challenge is then to further finetune the system afterwards. Either by communicating your dev roadmap for the future or by showing by action can you do this. This is however lacking.

In response to the stat statement: again depends on the developer. Grim Dawn shows you how it can be done, PoE shows you how it can be done. The devs of D3 decided to go for a different system instead (more console friendly)

In my opinion the dev's are trying their best, but they lack a transparent roadmap regarding system design where several things are interconnected (or its not communicated outwards). For example, if you introduce the new challenge rifts then the next few content patches and dlc's should have that in mind as well, not as an isolated system. The lack of transparency or roadmap only hurts the remaining goodwill with certain parts of the community and I can already tell you that this would lead in decreased sales of necro pack (the PTR and 64 bit debacle didnt really help either)
D2 certainly influenced the design of D3. If people are willing to pay real dollars for digital items, you better believe a company is going to take advantage of that. That's the whole basis for the RMAH. Online-only is to obviously counter pirating. The biggest victim to online-only is modding, something D2 benefited from.

Those elements alone are enough to have a significant impact on the game, and it's a direct result of player behavior from the previous game.
Did Onigami accuse the wrong people of making a terrible game? Yes.

While it may be true that the developers acted upon what happened in Diablo 2 when they made Diablo 3, their inability to change things when it quickly became obvious that their ideas weren't working is entirely their fault and not the players.
01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
When we saw how easily exploited it was, we complained till it was locked and shut out.
YOU complained till it was locked out. The rest of us either left or delt with it pissed off. It was not anywhere nearly as broken as every kept pretending. The biggest problem with the AH was that Blizzard decided to use it to scale in game drop %'s and THAT is what screwed the game up. The 5 people exploiting and gold farming had almost zero impact on the actual game in the grand scheme of things. Blizzard/Paypal made almost more money off of every transaction then we(people who sold items) did. If the gold farmers were a real problem they could have easily fixed it with a single line of code.

A lot pf people complained because it was a hard game, like it should be, and they didn't have loot pinatas on every kill. They got mad because people could buy items off of each other, which honestly after the BS with the beta is the only reason I stayed the first time(to make some extra $ playing games). There was NO PVP and no Ladder. There was No way anyone acquiring something you didn't have had any effect on anyone else, other then Jealously. That's what helped kill the game.

01/07/2017 07:25 PMPosted by Onigami
Stat placement was taken off because players made errors and complained about having to reset chars all the time in D2. "Wasting points and skills" may have encouraged the removal of stat placement and skill points. In Diablo II, almost every class just pumped 2 main stat points anyway, which is what we do here.
Not only is this factually untrue but The D3 team made the same false assumption because they too did not really play the game enough to understand it. They took a brief look at it playing as a casual and decided they knew all the nooks and crannies, better then the actual people who played it for over 10 years, which is totally evident during closed Beta when they constantly tried to justify major changes from the D2 system that made zero sense.

(edited: Let me clarify that the version of Diablo 2 available at the time of the development of Diablo 3, did already have 3 free respecs per character and more could be earned. It still does to this day).

The problem wasn't listening to people. The problem was that they were listening to the WRONG people. They wanted to make the game catered to the broadest base of people they could over the price of the integrity of the game. They hired a team of casuals who didn't even really like the Franchise in the first place, to hit it with a nuclear bomb and start over. They totally ignored the real fans that played the game the longest to know what would be the best way to keep it true to what made it great in the first place.

Instead of making an amazing game that would show more people the genius of the Diablo Franchise, they instead chose to bring in a large crowd of people exploiting the name sake to develop a new game around and cash in on.
What to do to fix it.

I think it's on the right track to becoming a decent game. It's not as horrible as I've seen it previously. I don't think it could ever hold a candle to its forefathers without starting over from scratch, but it's enjoyable OUTSIDE of that context.

The Pragon system as it is, is actually a step in the right direction. The reason it doesn't work very well right now is because Blizzard has over inflated the crap out of items so much that 1000 paragon points, for example, still doesn't have a major impact on any character. It would work if they stopped with the 15,000% bonus damage on items. If they stopped giving out xp's like free candy at a NAMBLA meeting, these things might actually mater.

1. They need to spend quality time bringing all skills closer to each other.
2. They are too fixated with impressing people by spamming massive damage numbers.
3. They need to drop about 3 or 4 zero's off the top end of the game.
4. They need to go through every piece of gear and do the same.
5. They are also on the right track giving some legendary items extra special bonuses.
6. Legendary gems are also pretty decent.

The main reason there is no diversity with all of these new items and so many skills, is that the damage scaling is so absurdly apart between them that there really isn't a choice. Go big or stay in T6 land is the only option. I know there will always be a top skill or build, but if the difference between the best and the worst is close enough you'll have a lot more people being totally happy playing the middle. Right now that "middle" is so far separated from the top that anyone who wants end game experiences are forced into abandoning their own builds and choosing between very few options.
01/07/2017 08:02 PMPosted by Michel
When the game was designed from concepts such as "weapon equipped governs all skill damage" and "4 stats from wich only 2 are useful" in each class (vitality + damage boost)...


Man I remember finding a white "balanced" dagger with 20% attack speed.
My first thought was "damn I'm so gonna make some sick attack speed build with this!" only to remember almost instantly... oh.. yeah... it doesnt have high damage and the only thing one can do with white items is salvage it, basically meaning that its just piece of rubble.
Another one was white superior shield with +15% armor and maxed block chance on it.. again I felt so much frustration, kowing that this item was only good for one thing which is being salvaged.

All classes want the same thing from their gear.
There are no builds that revolve around having high attack speed.
There are no builds that revolve around having high bleed.
There are no builds that revolve around having high crushing blow.(yes, I know there was... for a while.. but its gone now)
There are no builds that revolve around having high magic find(again, there was in the past but its gone now... forever)
There are no builds that revolve around having fast cast rate

What exists is having as much as possible of these: have the most of: critical hit damage, critical hit chance, elemental skill damage%, cooldown reduction and resource cost.

on every
single
class
and
build

I was so happy when blizzard added the invoker set, when it was still a 4-piece set and wasnt crusader only... I have always watend to make thorn builds. Finally it seemed like that there would be some variation to the what to get for my character for it to be useful... but nah, its still the same, in the end...

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