[2.4.3] (S9) Manald Heal Builds + Mechanics

Wizard
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I fell off my chair when I found tal's neck that rolled 18% lit, 90% cdh, 10% cc, vit. GG right?

Then after reading here that elemental % doesn't proc MH damage I fell off my chair again. RIP?

My other options are:
Ancient tal's neck
int 925
64%cdr
9% cc
5%cdr
What would I roll for socket?

OR

Non-ancient tal's neck
int
84%chd
10%cc
socket

Pick one.
Is the non ancient already rolled? I mean it depends on what variant you go for, too. With the Zodiac you can sacrifice the CDR on the amulet. With CoE instead of zodiac, you either need perfect CDR rolls on all except amulet, or you need to get an amulet with CDR.
I tried the CoE version of VyrRasha MH last night. Completed 102 in a 4m group. The initial burst can be truly devastating to elites at that tier. It's a very niche dps role designed to kill yellows and the RG.

I still struggle with aiming the beam properly. Often the beam is right on the enemy but they take no damage. Since the initial burst is so critical this build suffers even more when MH doesn't want to proc, and it can be a little frustrating if you happen to miss out on a cycle.

At 102 RG (Erethon) I took half of his health on my first burst, then he started moving around and I couldn't get MH to proc consistently after that, so it took another 3-4 cycles to whittle him down.

I will probably try to optimize this build and take it a bit further. Also interested in checking out the FB Chantodos MH build since I enjoy 2m push.
01/30/2017 05:42 AMPosted by Malakai
will Pinpoint Barrier, Deep Freeze, and/or Iceblink increase the damage as well?

Good thought Malakai. Testing uncovered some more interactions that apparently aren't working with MH.

Here's the 4th round of testing:
  • https://youtu.be/Vd4KdZhXzQA

Note: Used OID multiplier, also Audacity in this set of tests (included with baseline).

EDITED (2/1/2016): Edited Test results, replaced video with only valid results. All CHC related tests were likely not valid, will have to retest those.
02/01/2017 12:41 PMPosted by Cratic
OK so taking a closer look at the tests, and also tested with low CHC (5%) I now see white MH proc numbers.

Guess I was wrong on the CHC being included in the formula. Sorry for spreading any misinformation. I'll redo the tests for CHC related skills and gems.


Results:
  • Baseline Test (Comparison for all other tests): 364M - 00:00
  • Bone Chill (+33% damage debuff): 470M - 01:18 - Working with MH.
  • Cold Blooded (+10% damage debuff): 394M - 02:13 - Working with MH.
  • Glass Cannon (+15% damage buff): 412M - 03:56 - Working with MH.

Note: "Working with MH" means that the item or skill bonus does increase MH proc damage.
Has Toxin gem been tested? Either way, Iceblink and such poses some interesting implications. This may just be an assumption, but I think many monks in 2p runs with manald wizards have been using iceblink. Per your testing, that does nothing. That means they can run whatever gem they want in that slot...
they still need to use iceblink to slow enemies so the wizard can proc bane of the trapped from ranged
01/31/2017 09:33 PMPosted by Cratic
Seems that all CHC skill / gem related buffs and debuffs aren't really increasing MH damage. Would be interesting to test with a Crusader's crit buff.

MH damage crits, which means you get white damage floaters from non-crits and yellow floaters from crits. It's natural that CHC does nothing to crit damage itself as it increases its chance.
Please note that sheet DPS takes into account attack speed and averaged crits, which is not true for individual MH damage numbers.
01/31/2017 09:33 PMPosted by Cratic
Test results. Noting highest proc of MH damage.


Absolutely love your testing and effort, thanks for that. But looking at the *highest proc* does nothing to test CHC. It's a good way to test if CHD or damage buffs work, but for CHC testing you need to count the amount of hits+crits and see if the number of crits goes up. (A lot of work and needs a large sample to see something like a 5% CHC increase, but the only way to do this.)

I'm not sure how based on your testing you can assume that all those CHC buffs don't work. I don't have the time right now to do a frame-by-frame count but to me it looks like it might in fact be working.
01/30/2017 05:42 AMPosted by Malakai
will Pinpoint Barrier, Deep Freeze, and/or Iceblink increase the damage as well?


...

Test results. Noting highest proc of MH damage.
[ul]
  • Baseline Test (Comparison for all other tests): 364M - 00:00
  • Iceblink (+10% CHC debuff): 365M - 01:18 - Not Working with MH.
  • Deep Freeze (+10% CHC buff): 365M - 03:32 - Not Working with MH.
  • CHC & CHD paragon unassigned test: 320M - 06:42 (Note: added paragon back in mid-test (07:45), added +5% CHC and 50% CHD, after that, noted up to 360M). Working with MH.
  • Pinpoint Barrier (+5% CHC buff): 366M - 08:49 - Not Working with MH.
  • Conflagration (+6% CHC debuff): 364M - 12:16 - Not Working with MH.
  • ...

    Very interesting that pinpoint barrier didn't really seem to increase MH proc damage, even though the CHC buff was reflected on sheet.

    Seems that all CHC skill / gem related buffs and debuffs aren't really increasing MH damage. Would be interesting to test with a Crusader's crit buff.


    You are confusing CHC with CHD here
    02/01/2017 01:36 AMPosted by Bagstone
    But looking at the *highest proc* does nothing to test CHC

    Hmm, it would if the formula for MH damage simply included CHC and CHD as a modifier, instead of rolling like other spells do. This is what I've always thought MH was doing.

    EDIT: later found this is not what MH is doing - leaving rest of original comment here for reference.
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752649109?page=14#post-272

    You're right though - the smaller tests aren't 100% conclusive, but I would at least have seen a damage increase with the combination test, with +21% CHC from skill buff and debuff, and I didn't.

    I'd be glad to be proven wrong in this case, hah!
    02/01/2017 12:16 AMPosted by Adria
    MH damage crits, which means you get white damage floaters from non-crits and yellow floaters from crits.

    All I see are yellow and orange numbers for MH proc damage. Are we sure it crits in the traditional sense? Does it crit at all? Might need to do more tests with Crit chance on gear as well. I'll try and do another test with just gear CHC and CHD.
    02/01/2017 06:00 AMPosted by Pedololicon
    You are confusing CHC with CHD here

    Alternatively, the DH's cold multishot..both would be interesting to test with.
    01/31/2017 10:39 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
    Has Toxin gem been tested?

    Yes, Toxin debuff increases MH proc damage.
    Hi Cratic

    First off: awesome job on this whole tread and many thanks for putting the time, and efforts to create this.

    I'm a BIG fan of Electrocute (even if it's not the best) and currently running one of your build: http://www.diablofans.com/builds/85743

    The build works real fine, starting to push Grift more so i was researching legendary and i found: Velvet Caramal, a helm that double your number of lightning bolts (from 10 to 20) now... How can i put that helm in this build?

    1) drop Pledge and Compas for Tal amulet and CoE ring?
    2) drop Pledge and Compas for Hellfire amulet and RoRG ring and helm?
    3) take out belt from cube (Shame) and put helm there (since Att speed is bug with electrocute)?

    Also, would it be viable option? with the increase to number of targets, i think so, BUT you loose amulet + ring combo...

    Thanks
    OK so taking a closer look at the tests, and also tested with low CHC (5%) I now see white MH proc numbers.

    Guess I was wrong on the CHC being included in the formula. Sorry for spreading any misinformation. I'll redo the tests for CHC related skills and gems.
    02/01/2017 12:29 PMPosted by choopak
    Velvet Caramal

    02/01/2017 12:29 PMPosted by choopak
    viable option?

    You may have missed it, so quoting why below:
    Simply put, the bonus is in contention with other key build items - such as Endless Walk, Aquila, OID, Starfire, or AW. The fact that you need Shame of Delsere also restricts this option.

    When you're trying to push the highest of GR, these often seem better for toughness, damage or mobility.

    The doubled number of chains is nice, and does increase damage, but if you're going to drop one of either VC or Myken's, it's going to be VC you drop. =(

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752649109?page=2#post-25
    02/01/2017 12:29 PMPosted by choopak
    http://www.diablofans.com/builds/85743

    For this build I wouldn't swap out EW for VC. Too much of a damage loss. I'd keep it as is item-wise.

    If you're going to drop anything in that build to fit in VC, it would be the Halo of Arlyse. Run ABBs with RoRG (or Bastions of Will in place of EW), and swap out blur for GW. See how you like it different. My guess is this would be too much of a drop in defense for GR87 and higher.
    With all of these inconsistencies popping up on MH and what effects it, has it been ruled out that area damage definitely doesn't work? The assumption is proc can't proc area damage but is that true in this case?
    02/01/2017 02:15 PMPosted by NullAndVoid
    The assumption is proc can't proc area damage but is that true in this case?

    In all the slow mo vids I've watched I have yet to note an AD proc from MH when in density.

    You'd be clearing GR's noticably faster, and wizard might even be top in the meta if AD did work. I'm convinced AD isn't proccing with MH. =)
    Bagstone, Adria, Pedololicon,

    Thank you for correcting my mistake.

    I've started again from the beginning with the CHC + CHD tests. Here's the test for gear + paragon and emerald in weapon:
    • https://youtu.be/JoNAzplCGlE

    Result Summary:
    • CHC on gear and paragon will increase MH proc crit chance. Crit chance is not included in damage formula.
    • CHD on gear and paragon will increase MH proc crit damage.

    Tests:
    • 54% CHC and 50% CHD: 00:00 - Result: top noted: 82.3M.
    • 53.5% CHC and 442% CHD: 03:17 - Result: top noted: 298M. CHD on gear and paragon increases MH crit proc damage.
    • 5% CHC and 277% CHD: 06:47 - Result: Out of 100 MH procs noted within the first 2m 18s, there were 7 procs that Crit. Closely matches crit hit chance.
    Hey @Malakai,
    This is going to sound goofy, but another option for gloves is Frostburn with Ice Armor/Frozen Storm. But you'll have to use those dreaded Ancient Parthan Defenders...

    You jump into the middle of a pack and every second, you have a 50% chance to freeze one or more enemies around you, thus giving APD bonus.

    EDIT:
    I'm now using this kind of thinking in an LoN AT/SD build. I have Blizzard/Frozen Solid instead of a shield. I rely on Etched Sigil to cast this.
    You may have missed it, so quoting why below:
    Simply put, the bonus is in contention with other key build items - such as Endless Walk, Aquila, OID, Starfire, or AW. The fact that you need Shame of Delsere also restricts this option.

    When you're trying to push the highest of GR, these often seem better for toughness, damage or mobility.

    The doubled number of chains is nice, and does increase damage, but if you're going to drop one of either VC or Myken's, it's going to be VC you drop. =(

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752649109?page=2#post-25


    Yep you're right, missed it! thanks for pointing it out.

    02/01/2017 01:08 PMPosted by Cratic
    For this build I wouldn't swap out EW for VC. Too much of a damage loss. I'd keep it as is item-wise.

    If you're going to drop anything in that build to fit in VC, it would be the Halo of Arlyse. Run ABBs with RoRG (or Bastions of Will in place of EW), and swap out blur for GW. See how you like it different. My guess is this would be too much of a drop in defense for GR87 and higher.


    Will try that just for fun... i forget to mention: i play in group most of the time, solo Grift ladder board don't matter to me...

    Thanks again, keep you posted on how it goes.
    Has anyone tried to use Shi Mizu Haori in a non-Archon build? I tried it with my TalVyr Wiz but it seemed like Archon didn't have 100% CC but out of Archon I definitely was critting with all skills. Also, with APOC on helm and OH, I was not running out of resources.

    I apologize if this has been asked, but I searched the forums and could not find anything.
    02/01/2017 12:41 PMPosted by Cratic
    Guess I was wrong on the CHC being included in the formula. Sorry for spreading any misinformation. I'll redo the tests for CHC related skills and gems.

    You don't have to apologize. We all have our moments!
    You have done TONS of great work and research.

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