[2.4.3] (S9) Manald Heal Builds + Mechanics

Wizard
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01/04/2017 07:46 PMPosted by Cratic
For spells of speed coefficient > 1: Per target, if an enemy is affected by paralysis, they can take damage from MH within 1.5s of time. Any spell damage tick that hits them can potentially proc MH, assuming that spell is allowed to proc MH (more on this below).


During that 1.5s window, what determines whether MH will proc on each tick? Is it a static chance? Does it proc on every tick following a successful paralysis roll during that window?

01/04/2017 07:46 PMPosted by Cratic
MH can proc very rapidly at high attack speeds. In slow-mo vid testing, the lowest time noted between MH procs on the same target was .066 seconds (less than a tenth). This was from a Tal/Vyr archon test at the 15 ticks/s Breakpoint.


The game does calculations at 60 frames/second. If the time between ticks was 0.066 seconds, that equates to the duration of 4 frames at 60fps. 15 ticks/second equates to one tick every 4 frames. So doesn't this boil down to just saying each tick of damage with a proc coefficient can trigger manald heal, rather than saying it has some theoretical internal cooldown smaller than our fastest spells can generate...
During that 1.5s window, what determines whether MH will proc on each tick? Is it a static chance? Does it proc on every tick following a successful paralysis roll during that window?

Yes, any tick can proc MH once the window has opened. However, there exist gaps of time during the window that occur about every second or so. These take anywhere from ~.3 to ~.6s (could just be inaccuracy of my recording causing the variance there, but there is about a .5s gap) where no MH procs occur.

Explained a bit more by looking at this spreadhseet and / or looking at this point in the compare video:
  • https://youtu.be/9-JZ9Gwi-Iw?list=PLsBZISJpoL0KocceLYhS4KU2a0hVSa8JU&t=158
  • https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQ0JtSljGzpTliJBb9ncFbt-F9-q5UA2VXqpkcDij8w/edit?usp=sharing&pageId=107374740771280789402

This is why the odd wording with "can potentially proc MH". The number of total MH procs in a proc set doesn't match the number of total ticks you output on a target. In fact, number of MH procs is lower.

How and when the gaps line up within the window I didn't bother finding out for certain, but I did note they can occur in the middle and at the end of the proc window.

05/08/2017 09:49 AMPosted by BDF
rather than saying it has some theoretical internal cooldown smaller than our fastest spells can generate...

Yes, I no longer believe there is an ICD. That test I wasn't seeing the non-critical MH procs on the video, which explained the smaller gaps for some of the missed ticks, but they were there.

Does this answer your questions?

Perhaps I should add this to that section of the post to make it clearer.

Thanks BDF for your earlier work on wizard. I still reference some of the testing you've done in the past. =)
05/08/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Cratic
Yes, any tick can proc MH once the window has opened. However, there exist gaps of time during the window that occur about every second or so. These take anywhere from ~.3 to ~.6s (could just be inaccuracy of my recording causing the variance there, but there is about a .5s gap) where no MH procs occur.


Based on the data, it seems more like it procs on every tick( with a proc coeff) after a successful paralysis roll, other than the large gaps you noted.

Other than preferring to measure in frames rather than time, since that's how the games engine calculates I didn't see any damage done numbers displayed. It wasn't rare during my firebird/mammoth analysis that an expected damage application would sometimes 'skip' a tick, but then deal double dmg on the next expected application. Then again those were DoTs rather than procs so maybe I'm trying to make a comparison where there isn't one.

May or may not take a stab at looking at generating some data on this with min=max dmg legacy gear.
I hope its not fixed, Wizard are way to OP anyhow!
But I runned this profile https://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Malakai-1265/hero/57405415 at the d3planner and MH benefited from Lighning % dmg... is the d3planner reliable?
05/12/2017 08:20 AMPosted by MADX0
But I runned this profile https://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Malakai-1265/hero/57405415 at the d3planner and MH benefited from Lighning % dmg... is the d3planner reliable?


Generally, d3planner is a good advisor.
Indeed, it does show that MH dmg benefits from %light.
As it should be expected.
Since, it is standard to have 15%-20 light, and Top Players can clear 105+ levels, obviously another 15-20% multiplicative dmg, can theoretically add +1 clear level.
So, imo, intentionally this bug is not fixed.

To conclude, in reality it is bugged, and the planner has not been updated for this bug.
05/12/2017 08:37 AMPosted by Dragonfire

Generally, d3planner is a good advisor.
Indeed, it does show that MH dmg benefits from %light.
As it should be expected.
Since, it is standard to have 15%-20 light, and Top Players can clear 105+ levels, obviously another 15-20% multiplicative dmg, can theoretically add +1 clear level.
So, imo, intentionally this bug is not fixed.

To conclude, in reality it is bugged, and the planner has not been updated for this bug.

Hmmm... thanks, luckily I havent focused on %light but the stats recomended here (AS, CHC, CHD)...
So, do you mean they know about it and havent fixed it it?
05/12/2017 08:47 AMPosted by MADX0
So, do you mean they know about it and havent fixed it it?

This is a personal view:
Wizard solo builds are the top solo builds between all classes. Especially versus poor barbs the gap is +8 levels.
If the bug is fixed, and MH benefits from %Lighting Dmg, which is multi, and a high %Light on Bracers is pretty standard => LWiz can go even higher.

The direction is totally opposite from fixing a bug that will yield in higher clears (potentially). Already in 2.5.0 they narrowed the MH window to 1,125 sec from 1,5.

That is my view. It will not be fixed inside 2017.
05/12/2017 09:17 AMPosted by Dragonfire
05/12/2017 08:47 AMPosted by MADX0
So, do you mean they know about it and havent fixed it it?

This is a personal view:
Wizard solo builds are the top solo builds between all classes. Especially versus poor barbs the gap is +8 levels.
If the bug is fixed, and MH benefits from %Lighting Dmg, which is multi, and a high %Light on Bracers is pretty standard => LWiz can go even higher.

The direction is totally opposite from fixing a bug that will yield in higher clears (potentially). Already in 2.5.0 they narrowed the MH window to 1,125 sec from 1,5.

That is my view. It will not be fixed inside 2017.

Oh, you mean Blizz not d3planner. Then the d3planner guys should "fix" the MH benefit from %light, right?
Question: I'm running spectral blades (thrown so electrified) at 100% greater attack speed with manald heal equipped and broken promises cubed which should give me 100% crit chance for 3 seconds after 5 consecutive non-crits. Do crits always trigger stun (if electrified, which these are) and does a stun always proc MH? Because that would mean i could be non stop critting for 3 seconds with manald piling the damage on every attack right? This however doesn't seem to happen, I can stand in front of a single enemy and be slicing the hell out of it without a crit for far longer than 5 hits.

What am I not understanding?
Hi Isujusi, spectral blades is an AoE type ability. Even with minimal CHC on gear you still have 5% crit on character. In practice this 5% ends up crit hitting more often than youd think.

Broken promises counts the number of non crits per attack. SB hits 3 times per attack which makes it less than ideal.

Broken promises also has an ICD of .25s. What this means is that even on single target, your blade is hitting many more times than it needs to, and potentially resets the counter far more often as well.

For more info on broken promises, reference Davlok's post:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/16527322731?page=3#post-55

Additionally, youre trying to snyc up two buffs that are both based on chance. Even if you get the 100% Chc buff, you might not proc paralysis for those blade attacks.

SB is speed co= 1, but can proc MH up to three time per paralysis. It is unfortunate it isnt better at proccing MH.
05/16/2017 09:14 AMPosted by Cratic
Hi Isujusi, spectral blades is an AoE type ability. Even with minimal CHC on gear you still have 5% crit on character. In practice this 5% ends up crit hitting more often than youd think.

Broken promises counts the number of non crits per attack. SB hits 3 times per attack which makes it less than ideal.

Broken promises also has an ICD of .25s. What this means is that even on single target, your blade is hitting many more times than it needs to, and potentially resets the counter far more often as well.

For more info on broken promises, reference Davlok's post:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/16527322731?page=3#post-55

Additionally, youre trying to snyc up two buffs that are both based on chance. Even if you get the 100% Chc buff, you might not proc paralysis for those blade attacks.

SB is speed co= 1, but can proc MH up to three time per paralysis. It is unfortunate it isnt better at proccing MH.


Right, thanks! That makes a lot of sense.
Hi all im From Europe but still i like to ask Cratic or other to inspect my wiz Danzig. Would you go for more crit dmg or Ias like i do. Im open for criticism and thank you Guy's upfront. Of course i know about bubble but in GR 100plus i die to much without deflect. Nice day all, And respect time you put in to help others.
I looked through the thread and didn't find anything (if you answered this already, I'm sorry for missing it), so I have to ask:

Do the Shard of Hate bonus projectiles proc MH?
Hey Cratic,

I didn't know which of your MH build guide thread I should choose to ask you the following questions (S9 or S10).

I'm now around at 450 paragon (PS4) in the season (started a bit later) and I'm still having a lot of fun with your several electrocute MH builds. (GR 66 so far).

Now I got a fragment of destiny and decided to give it a try: I just swapped Myken's Ball of Hate with it. And now for me it seems, that Spectral Blade - Thrown Blade procs paralysis at least so often as Electrocute - Chain Lightning does or perhaps a bit more often because of that incredible aps. Advantage: it also works with just one enemy. I was a bit surprised.

What's your opponion about that? Has it been proofed by someone trough theorycrafting or special tests (like you do in T13 with just one boss) that thrown blade is not as good as the electrocute?

Thanks!

Best Regards,

Ravolos

Edit:
- I thought that there perhaps was a change between S9 and S11 for SB!?
- Nevertheless now - one day later - being at GR76 and Paragon 600 with an offensive electrocute range setup (EW & COE & lots of LoH)
Build feels like a bandaid. Doesnt feel rifht at all, it doesnt even fully utilize tals set.

I dont think this was the intended outcome for this set/build. Manald heal is a gimmick that doesnt feel right. Can die 15 times in a rift and still clear it cos my RNG on ring procs is good?

Poor gameplay and lacks skill
Taeguk doesnt work with archon
07/30/2017 03:20 PMPosted by SaVaGeOnE
Can die 15 times in a rift and still clear it cos my RNG on ring procs is good?

Poor gameplay and lacks skill


If you have more than enough dps to clear your rifts despite dying 15 times, it means you can clear much higher if you get better at dodging and staying at range allowing your slow time bubble to protect you.

The build plays like a glass cannon, in high levels thing will quickly kill you, you can also kill quickly. The skill lies in staying alive.
07/29/2017 02:14 AMPosted by Ravolos
What's your opponion about that? Has it been proofed by someone trough theorycrafting or special tests (like you do in T13 with just one boss) that thrown blade is not as good as the electrocute?

Hi Rav! As of my last testing, SB only procs MH once per blade hit when paralysis occurs. This means only up to 3 times per paralysis, which is a very low amount, even with the faster attack speed. It also has a smaller range. You won't be able to push much past GR80 or so with such a setup, if you're lucky, you'll get to 85 or so.

As an aside, I also found that simply using shame of delsere with Shock Pulse: Living lightning felt better/stronger than blades for solo GRs because it didn't take up the weapon slot. Also the spell ticks fairly often, so it ends up proccing MH more too, even though it moves.

Chain Lightning is just much better at hitting enemies. When paralysis occurs, this allows you to proc MH on more enemies overall, and Mykens really helps finish elite packs with the chain to same enemy effect after whittling down the density.

Spectral blade is a stronger primary though. It was one of the main builds for Torments back before T13 was introduced, and even after that it was still fairly strong. MH may boost it's usefulness in Torment farming, but you'd have to focus on both primary damage, and MH damage mods, which will severely limit your affixes on gear (less room for defense, for example).

Even for torment farming, I still find electrocute generally better once you get the AS rolls, since it can be used for killing large groups of trash and elites, whereas the spectral blade build seems to be more of just an elite hunting build. But - to each his own ( & - to each her own). I say try it out and find something that works for you.

I'd start with Mouzetc's multi purpose blades guide and adapt it from there.
  • http://www.diablofans.com/builds/70467

Just off the top for higher damage, i'd probably be dropping F&R for EW, that way you wouldn't have to worrry about activating the multiplier, slotting MH in the other ring slot, dropping sages, and probably go with Homing pads.

For lower damage, more utility, you could stay with the Tal ammy, but pick up Avarice band, goldwrap, and wear the depth diggers. Replace one of the legendary gems with Boon of the hoarder.
Hey Cratic, Thank you for all the hard work you did here for testing and theory with these builds. I have finally read through this whole amazing thread and there is a ton of good info. I know some of it was dated before the 25% nerf in season 10 from what I have seen but it looks like some of the builds were updated and such as time went by. I did have a question for starting out new on a s11 character if you don't mind giving me some advise?

I played a wiz in s9 and went the normal tal/vyr build before the hydra's were changed. I played a little with the hydras in s10 but mainly stayed to diff characters. For s11 I really want to get a wiz back up and just started one out.

I was trying to see if the gr push "[2.4.3 PTR] (GR94+) Tal AT:SD Manald Heal + Aquila + Deathwish" is still viable after the changes from 2.5 nerf into the upper 80's and even low 90's? I was hoping to not play a tal/vry combo but I would still like to be able to rock somewhere in the low 90's once geared? I am familiar with the mechanics of the tal/vyr build but I was just trying for something a little different. Thanks for any advise you can give!

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