[2.4.3] (S9) Manald Heal Builds + Mechanics

Wizard
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01/19/2017 10:21 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Dude you have like a total of 3 lighting abilities on that wizard. If you're using electrocute most of the time and then switching to AT to proc sigil, could be because... You know... You just switched to one of the best proc coefficient skills for a moment. Or the sigil casts just coincide with when you rend to get paralyze off. If you want to truly test it, take off everything except those two and change the rune on AT.

I rarely if ever actually use Electrocute, I built this build based on the info in the thread. I switched to Etched Sigil and I get at least triple the DPS I had before when I was using Hydra where meteor is now.

EDIT: If it matters to anyone: Meteor does not seem to work, but the black hole definitely does. Is it possible that black hole, since it still only goes off once every 8 seconds with sigil, was deemed for some reason acceptable, and has it's manald procs still enabled when sigil cast? Hydra also works for sure. The meteor doesn't.
Based on testing in another thread, added these listings to the general mechanics list:
  • If Paralysis rolls "true" on cast: multiple spell ticks per attack cycle can be sent that will apply paralysis to any enemy hit.
  • Per target, if an enemy is affected by paralysis, they can take damage from MH within 1.5s of time. Any spell damage tick that hits them can potentially proc MH, assuming that spell is allowed to proc MH (more on this below).
  • MH can only proc on targets that have had paralysis applied to them.
  • Damage from MH is applied instantly, from the same cast / tap of a spell that procs paralysis. You don't really need to hit twice to proc MH (though it does proc MH more times on targets already affected by paralysis).

The question from that thread was "does paralysis open a window of time that allows you to be able to proc MH damage for 1.5s on any enemy"?

The answer is no. Targets have to be affected by paralysis to be eligible for MH damage procs. The fact that multiple attack cycles can apply paralysis is what makes it seem that this is true. With certain spells you can blanket the screen with Paralysis, and therefore get a greater number of MH damage procs overall.

There is still a window of time or timeframe that MH is allowed to proc in, but it is per target based on if and when that target has had paralysis applied to them (not global).

01/19/2017 01:03 PMPosted by Cratic
So I just did some quick testing with chain lightning, similar to how Vox suggested, alternating casting chains between two different groups of enemies.

Noted a few things. Keep in mind these tests are very quick between targetting the different groups.

Test Case 1: Waiting appox .5 seconds between.
  • Used electrocute on Group A.
  • Used electrocute on Group B. Group B affected by paralysis. Group B takes MH damage.
  • Noted: Group A not affected by paralysis. Group A did not take MH damage.

This confirms that paralysis is definitely on cast of a spell. However, I also noted the following:

Test case 2: No downtime between.
  • Used electrocute on Group A. Group A affected by Paralysis. Group A takes MH damage.
  • Used electrocute on Group B. Group B affected by Paralysis. Group B takes MH damage.

-----

Test case 1 indicates that the statement "paralysis opens a window of 1.5s that will allow you to deal damage to any enemy" is false. If it were true, both packs in test case 1 would have taken damage, but they did not.

Test case 2 indicates that multiple ticks from the same cast (tick set) can apply paralysis, and therefore increase the number of enemies that can take MH damage significantly.

The fact that this is readily reproducible suggests that the above is what is happening rather than paralysis being rolled individually for per tick (and just randomly proccing in succession).

This likely means:
MH can only proc on targets that have had paralysis applied to them. Paralysis-affected targets can take MH damage any time within 1.5s of paralysis being initially applied.


Also this post in that same thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752785117#post-10
Cratic: Is this the right way to think of an effective MH proc rate?

***
At around 1,000,000 hypothetical simple lightning spell attacks to a single target, you expect around 150,000 paralysis procs and, for a 1.34 APS (0.75 secs/attack) assume you get 2 MH single-target procs per Paralysis proc, or 300,000 MH procs for an effective proc chance of 30% (15% times the number of attacks per 1.5 seconds). Except, if you end up having consecutive Paralysis procs, that gets cut by 75% (or more) since you lose MH procs due to overlap.

[h] -> hit
[MH] - MH damage applied
[P] -> Paralysis proc
Two example sequences of 8 hits
[h][h/P/MH][h/MH][h][h][h/P/MH][h/MH][h]
[h][h/P/MH][h/P/MH][h/MH][h][h][h][h]

So your effective proc chance for MH is at best 30% (15% times the number of attacks per 1.5 seconds), and this will both increase and get whittled down as APS goes up (or if they up the proc chance of Paralysis). If Dovu Energy Trap does extend Paralysis duration, it will be effective, but perhaps less than expected due to overlap erosion of the effective proc chance of MH damage. There will also be effective "breakpoints" establishing whether an additional hit occurs in the lengthened Paralysis duration.

So maybe it is best to talk about the Max Eff Proc Chance of MH damage as [APS * 1.5s * 15%]. Then there would be another adjustment due to any skill abilities to spread Paralysis, "break point" binning (using Dovu or otherwise), or to double single target procs.
***
01/20/2017 06:40 AMPosted by Cratic
With certain spells you can blanket the screen with Paralysis, and therefore get a greater number of MH damage procs overall.


So wouldn´t be great use Black Hole (farmed mobs from whole screen in) and spam AT:SD to that point, so hit f.e 12 mobs per tick set and watch Paralyze/MH proc on lot of mobs?
Not sure if I'm doing the MH ring properly. Some helpful tips would be greatly appreciated.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/DaveJr-1928/hero/63336125
Does the lightning rotation on a COE buff the damage from MH?
This is great - I've been struggling with whether Manald is a really good choice. FWIW, I've found Shock Pulse with Living Lightning to be more effective for melee-ranged Wizard than Lightning -- it seems to get a lot of procs very fast per attack tick.
01/20/2017 10:25 AMPosted by Celsius
Does the lightning rotation on a COE buff the damage from MH?

Yes. Thanks for bringing it up as I knew this but forgot to add it to the OP. Ill update it with this info when I can.
01/20/2017 10:46 AMPosted by Myndfyre
FWIW, I've found Shock Pulse with Living Lightning to be more effective for melee-ranged Wizard than Lightning -- it seems to get a lot of procs very fast per attack tick.

Yes, a single cast of living lightning can tick 12 times over its duration If I remember correctly. Still not as good as electrocute or atsd because it moves when you cast it.
Having lots of fun testing out some great Manald Heal builds ... big thanks and kudos to Cratic for assembling this one stop shopping thread !

One variation I haven't seen mentioned yet is "The Witching Hour" vs "Velvet Camaral".

More attack speed/CHD gives more damage and higher chance to hit a breakpoint to proc MH ... vs extending the electrocute chain (which if MH procs will hit more enemies at one time). My current testing favors WH for higher MH proc rate leading to faster kills. Anyone else play with this alternative ?
Did some tests on Dovu Energy Trap and effect of CC resistance on MH procs.
Data is picked up from videos recorded at 60 fps.

TL;DR: Dovu and CC resistance don't affect MH procs.

Test 1) Dovu Energy Trap
Method:
Equip 25% Dovu Energy Trap and attack a mob with no CC resistance.
Mob: Mounted Armaddon
Skill: Archon Disintegration Beam
APS: 2.75 (7 frames breakpoint, 8.57 ticks per sec, 0.117 sec interval)

Result:
Paralysis procced at one point, and observed 13 consecutive MH procs over 1.42 seconds from then.
Stun lasted for 2.48 seconds which is exactly the same as one without Dovu amulet.
Repeated the whole method again and obtained the same result.
Also observed an additional floating text indicating Stun in the middle of Paralysis duration, but this seems to always happen. (Cannot always mean that 2 Paralysis procs were involved)

Discussion:
If one more MH proc would occur, it would be past 1.5 seconds from the Paralysis proc. 13 procs are the maximum number that can fit into 1.5 seconds (12 procs + 1 at the beginning).
This indicates MH procs cannot be affected by Dovu Energy Trap.

Test 2) CC resistance
Method:
Equip Halo of Arlyse and use Ice Armor: Crystallize and Frost Nova: Cold Snap to build up CC resistance on a pack of mobs, then try to proc MH.
Mob: 1 Corrupted Angel and 5 Spine Lashers
Skill: Archon Disintegration Beam
APS: 1.48 (13 frames breakpoint, 4.62 ticks per sec, 0.217 sec interval)
Corrupted Angel stayed in one place and didn't move around during the test.
I pointed the cursor at Corrupted Angel and didn't move the cursor during the test.

Result:
Didn't observe Paralysis proc, but MH started to proc consecutively at one point.
Observed 7 consecutive MH procs over 1.30 seconds.
Frost Nova from Halo of Arlyse were proccing randomly during the test, and they lasted less than 0.8 seconds while I was in Archon form.
Repeated the test with another mob (Oppressor) and obtained the same result.

Discussion:
Result indicates that MH procs even if the mob resists the stun from Paralysis.
7 procs are the maximum that can fit into 1.5 second time frame.
Frost Nova lasting very short means the mobs have high CC resistance during the test, but MH proc duration wasn't shortened.
This suggests that MH procs are not affected by CC resistance.
However, these results cannot exclude the chance that 2 consecutive Paralysis proc would have occurred during the Test 2.
why is lon manald heal so freaking ludicrously worse than a simple tal rasha archon manald heal?
the difference in dps is astounding.

one build require no ancient pieces and the other does.

one build should do more dps than the other right?
well one build do. except it's the wrong one.

it's not right that a lightning archon demolishes a lon arcane torrent build.

cause the latter takes a lot longer to get yet it yields clap dps compared to a fresh dinged tal rasha archon.

blizzard why do you do this.
Apparently there's a bug in the way Manald does damage.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752442154?page=1

It's almost impossible to see what the hell the guy's saying but what I'm getting out of it is that neither the Furnace nor (?) Lightning % gear damage seems to actually effect manald proc damage.
what is it about archon that makes manald heal do infinitely more dps than a manald heal used in a lon build without archon
01/21/2017 07:02 AMPosted by Adria
Did some tests on Dovu Energy Trap and effect of CC resistance on MH procs.

Thanks for testing Adria - I'll look over your post as soon as I can.
01/21/2017 07:45 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
It's almost impossible to see what the hell the guy's saying but what I'm getting out of it is that neither the Furnace nor (?) Lightning % gear damage seems to actually effect manald proc damage.

Interesting - those are things I just assumed would work, hah. I'd like to test it myself sometime this weekend to confirm.
Need reroll advice please!

Ancient starfire
base dam: 1326-1637 (very low)
INT
22% AD (not very useful stat)
6% CDR (low CDR roll)

I get 15% dps gain just raising base dam. AD to IAS is useful. or 6%->10% CDR is good.

Suggestions?
01/21/2017 07:45 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Apparently there's a bug in the way Manald does damage.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752442154?page=1

It's almost impossible to see what the hell the guy's saying but what I'm getting out of it is that neither the Furnace nor (?) Lightning % gear damage seems to actually effect manald proc damage.


Looks like the post was removed. Any chance the testing info is up somewhere else?
All electrocute builds has a bug, because electrocute has AS bug. That is why we can't get efficient damage or Survivability.

Look at this tread, and please share if you are experiencing the same thing.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752470380
01/21/2017 07:52 AMPosted by babbrabush
what is it about archon that makes manald heal do infinitely more dps than a manald heal used in a lon build without archon


AS and damage stacks. AS gives you APS breakpoints, so more paralysis procs and more MH procs within the paralysis window, damage is a pure stacking multiplier that adds to tal multiplier.

With LoN and full ancients you get 1600% more global damage (about 1600%, correct me if I'm slightly wrong). With tal you get 3000% for 8 seconds during archon and 3000% when out of archon, doubles your EHP. Fazula gives you 50 free archon stacks, so with Vyr 50%AS, 300% damage (bringing your overall bonus damage to 9000% just with the fazula's stacks), a lot of armor and allres... And you can do double stacks with the swami, which is really strong.
01/21/2017 07:45 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Apparently there's a bug in the way Manald does damage.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752442154?page=1

It's almost impossible to see what the hell the guy's saying but what I'm getting out of it is that neither the Furnace nor (?) Lightning % gear damage seems to actually effect manald proc damage.

I tested MH to confirm.

EDIT: here's the video link for these tests if you're interested:
  • https://youtu.be/E_DkfY1SU_4

For all tests, kept INT at about 9200 (give or take 100 INT) by varying paragon assignment. Kept CHC / CHD stats relatively comparable (maybe +/- .5 CHC and +/- 5% CHD). Multipliers used (other than if they are mentioned in the tests: OID. I kept all my skills the same, and only swapped out cube items or bracer / amulet between tests.

Timed butcher kills on TXI and also noted manald heal damage proc amounts for tests #1-3, for test 4 I engaged Ghom. Timings for kills started after I stacked up my OID bonus and engaged him with AT:SD). Stood in the corner and channeled for the duration of every test except starfire.

Test1: No Elemental % damage on gear, No elite % damage on gear.

Result:
  • MH damage procs noted as high as ~250M.
  • Butcher died in approximately 3m 30s.

Test2: Elemental % damage on gear (equipped a total of 36%), No elite % damage on gear.

Result:
  • MH damage procs noted as high as ~250M.
  • Butcher died in approximately 4m 14s.

Test3: No Elemental % damage on gear, Elite % damage on gear (equipped a furnace in the cube).

Result:
  • MH damage procs noted as high as ~250M.
  • Butcher died in approximately 3m 25s.


Test4: No elemental % damage on gear, no elite damage on gear, Equipped a Starfire (in the cube).

Result:
  • MH damage procs noted as high as ~325M.

-----

What does this mean?

  • Elemental % damage on gear DOES NOT increase MH proc damage.
  • Elite % damage DOES NOT increase MH proc damage.
  • Starfire DOES increase MH proc damage. Test 4 showed max damage consistent with 20-30 yrd range.

Furnace is therefore a useless choice for MH builds, especially archon builds. Many archon builds will still likely have to roll % lightning on bracer just to make sure they do lightning damage when in archon though (which is a hinderance to many MH archon builds).

So yeah, if you can, don't roll elemental % damage on gear or elite % damage for MH builds for the time being. Attack Speed or CDR on amulet might be the best option now, though INT would still be strong.

I'll update the links for my builds to reflect this when I get a chance. I'll also update the OP with this info. Will attach a video of my testing here soon.

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