Blue post on Primal (Updated with new post)

General Discussion
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02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


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What kind of changes do you think will happen?

What kind of changes should happen?

EDIT:

02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.
>What kind of changes do you think will happen?
they will lower drop rate to 0.5%

>What kind of changes should happen?
remove them ofc
Adding an extra Mod would be a huge plus.
There needs to be something added to make Pancients worthwhile even if they roll badly. Salvaging an item that takes 100 times longer to find for a single worthless Forgotten Soul is extremely frustrating.
I don't want rarer items, it's hard to optimize ancients as is. I want sets to become redundant and ideas like LoN to take hold. I want build diversity!!! Please blizz!
This can't possibly end well.

Remove them, it's just further stat inflation with no actual gameplay.
02/03/2017 05:57 PMPosted by Kirin
>What kind of changes should happen?
remove them ofc

Hahaha agree lol
I guess I should be answering my own question.

02/03/2017 05:56 PMPosted by DoomBringer
What kind of changes do you think will happen?


I'm expecting some tweaks here and there... and maybe "making it easier" to get a better rolled Primal.

02/03/2017 05:56 PMPosted by DoomBringer
What kind of changes should happen?


Well, if Primal items are here to stay, they should be more than just stats sticks. They should enable new possibilities --- new builds. It should be unique.

I'm not exactly expecting "new" legendary powers since it would be a nightmare to balance all that (+new powers to be cubed).
What kind of changes do you think will happen?
They will make them as rare as Cosmic Wings. They want to make them better, but want to avoid any game-changers. This would limit power creep till the next iteration.

What kind of changes should happen:
Name them GODLY instead of Primal ... so that when found, you wouldn't want to salvage them ... make them hunt worthy

* Force them to always roll only good stats and secondaries (top 5% range values)
* Give them an extra socket (and always roll max sockets)
* Double legendary property
* Double everything for that matter ... not just primary stat ... elemental, damage, attack speed, CHC, CHD, RCR, CDR, etc.

Since they are power creeping, if something like that was available, I wouldn't think twice about replacing a perfectly rolled ancient with max augments (though they should introduce a way to remove/extract/transfer augments to support Primals).
Who knows what will happen. First, Blizzard drops this in our lap out of no where, virtually unasked for. Now they're making the surprising move of acknowledging the backlash and considering changes, but we're not going to be privy to any of the process.

Once again, the abusive relationship of trying to trust Blizzard only to get burned begins.

My mind keeps going back to GR trials and how all we did was scream for their removal in exchange for a dropdown difficulty selection and they instead went through 2-3 'tweaking' interations before finally giving the players what we wanted.

It's gonna be a ride, either way.
The recent video where David Brevik talks about a "build up" system where you collect a ton of certain materials and eventually guarantees a powerful item is my preference. An alternative path with an end goal.

That's much more preferable than simply grinding the game until your eyes bleed and potentially nothing happening as a result.

The 1% chance to drop can still be there; it's that it shouldn't just be that and nothing else.
Maybe it is RNG and just dumb luck but why did three of these darn Primals have dropped after an hour and a half of playing?
02/03/2017 06:24 PMPosted by Ghostpos
I don't want rarer items, it's hard to optimize ancients as is. I want sets to become redundant and ideas like LoN to take hold. I want build diversity!!! Please blizz!


I think you are in rare territory here.

The true core of any good ARPG is having really rare items that are absolutely THE BEST.

D3 does not have that right now, and after 2 years of fans telling them so, I think they have finally realized this.
02/03/2017 07:38 PMPosted by Graveheart
What kind of changes do you think will happen?
They will make them as rare as Cosmic Wings. They want to make them better, but want to avoid any game-changers. This would limit power creep till the next iteration.

What kind of changes should happen:
Name them GODLY instead of Primal ... so that when found, you wouldn't want to salvage them ... make them hunt worthy

* Force them to always roll only good stats and secondaries (top 5% range values)
* Give them an extra socket (and always roll max sockets)
* Double legendary property
* Double everything for that matter ... not just primary stat ... elemental, damage, attack speed, CHC, CHD, RCR, CDR, etc.

Since they are power creeping, if something like that was available, I wouldn't think twice about replacing a perfectly rolled ancient with max augments (though they should introduce a way to remove/extract/transfer augments to support Primals).


Imagine if they did make primal items GODLY, and in turn also lowered all skill modifiers currently in the game into a 5%-15% range based on current % increase.

There would be so much diversity in the game it would be spectacular!!!!!
Most likely they will add some kind of 'mercy timer' or a way to reroll them/add attribute. At the very least, they can let us salvage our gem augments.

As many people have pointed out, it will be really depressing when you finally get that 1% drop and the item is just junk (and of course usually 2/3 or more of drops have junk attributes). Having a way of rerolling them from something you get from game progression will greatly mitigate this problem.

I am hoping they will tie this to their previous promise to investigate uses for SOJs.
02/03/2017 05:56 PMPosted by DoomBringer
What kind of changes do you think will happen?


I feel like they are going to give a 50% stat increase (up from 30%), and add an additional stat roll to the item. While making them a 0.5% drop chance.

02/03/2017 05:56 PMPosted by DoomBringer
What kind of changes should happen?


They should completely remove skill modifiers from the game, balance the base skills around current legendary abilities, and change sets to being more about utility that are class eccentric.

Suggestions are making zuni set the pure pet set for WD's. Instead of power, the set gives you things like fetishes last forever, summon 3 more zombie dogs and 3 more gargantuans, and then all of your pets cleave.

This type of change does add power, but not 15x greater power. It is still overall more about the gear you have, and not the "modifier" that is on the gear. It would open the game up for some really interesting combinations as well, which would be great moving forward with D3.

As many people have pointed out, it will be really depressing when you finally get that 1% drop and the item is just junk (and of course usually 80-90% of drops are junk attributes). Having a way of rerolling them from something you get from game progression will greatly mitigate this problem.


Exactly, if they can simply make sure that once you get a primal you feel this "O !@#$ I NEED TO USE THAT ITEM" feeling again, I am perfectly fine with whatever they do.

Currently though, sets are simply too powerful, so the only work around is to make primal items even better than sets, while not allowing set items to roll primal.
How they should act:
* Shelve Primal Ancients until they have REAL content to release. Like an expansion pack or an overhaul on gameplay systems.
* Primals restricted to loot tables only by not letting them to be rerolled. If someone is stacked on Primals at least you should be able to distinguish a botter from a real legit farmer.
* Only legendaries are capable of rolling as Primal for the sake of LoN.

What will happen:
* They won't step back
* Anyone with a half-brain will keep farming legendaries and set items to reforge them in cube to be Primals with less hassle. If Primals are meant to be rare, I don't think you are supposed to reforge or upgrade for a Furnace. There should be a whole different recipe if that's the case.
* End of the season; botters, multiboxers, 4-man meta players will load on Primals.
* Blizzard servers will be stress tested for WoW's possible gameplay changes.
If it's possible, increase the range that legendary powers can roll and keep other damage/stats the same as ancients. That's the only thing that would really get me excited. For powers than can't be rolled with ranges or be enhanced somehow have them not drop at all.

Crystal Fist:
Dashing Strike reduces your damage taken by 40–50% for 6 seconds.
Primal ancient: 50-60%

Scarbringer:
The damage of Lashing Tail Kick is increased by 300% to the first 5–7 enemies hit.
Primal ancient: maybe 400% or first 8-10 enemies hit

Kyoshiro's Blade:
Increase the damage of Wave of Light by 150%. When the initial impact of your Wave of Light hits 3 or fewer enemies, the damage is increased by 200–250%.
Primal ancient: maybe 5 or fewer enemies or 250-300%

Just increasing damage ranges is so boring. I hope they don't just do that.

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