Primal Ancients: Issues With Design Philosophy

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Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.
I love it. Thank you.
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops

So perfect secondary stats as well? (And by tailored - you mean like no more All-Resist rolls for Monks and instead a guaranteed single resist?) ^_^;

But overall, don't see this version of Primals getting me excited to play D3 in 2.5, S10 or beyond. Even as a non-season player who could accumulate a lot of Primals just doesn't excite me, especially with an even lower drop rate. How about an additional re-roll? Or even one primary one secondary reroll? Focusing on giving more forgotten souls totally misses the point of asking for a consolidation prize for finding a primal you can't use. (ie - salvage into a PRIMAL ESSENCE for use in a TBD recipe)
Well ty for the reply for your upcoming plans.
Sad that they will not getting something crazy cool, but at least
people will not rage if they don't get their primal weapon. ;)
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.


Not sure why you listened to people who complained that they are too rare and that they don't have enough time to get them. By catering to casual players you've simply nerfed a good endgame goal which means people will quit Season's just as fast as they do now.
I honestly don't see how nerfing Primals + making them even more rare than 1% is ever a good idea.
02/13/2017 03:24 PMPosted by Davlok
So perfect secondary stats as well? (And by tailored - you mean like no more All-Resist rolls for Monks and instead a guaranteed single resist?) ^_^;

I assume it only means that it's not going to be an Int item on DH or something like that.
02/13/2017 03:39 PMPosted by RforRaven
02/13/2017 03:24 PMPosted by Davlok
So perfect secondary stats as well? (And by tailored - you mean like no more All-Resist rolls for Monks and instead a guaranteed single resist?) ^_^;

I assume it only means that it's not going to be an Int item on DH or something like that.


No, i think they will obvs run main stat depending on class... and can even roll bad affixes .... but they will roll on max possible values always.
02/13/2017 03:37 PMPosted by Makaveli

Not sure why you listened to people who complained that they are too rare and that they don't have enough time to get them. By catering to casual players you've simply nerfed a good endgame goal which means people will quit Season's just as fast as they do now.
I honestly don't see how nerfing Primals + making them even more rare than 1% is ever a good idea.

You just contradicted yourself within the same paragraph. Nice work.
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.

I can get behind this 9/10 Blizzard

Still hoping for a new higher Standard Gem tier.
And some more Nephalim lvl awesomeness.
that'll get you a 10/10
02/13/2017 03:43 PMPosted by Khorius
02/13/2017 03:37 PMPosted by Makaveli

Not sure why you listened to people who complained that they are too rare and that they don't have enough time to get them. By catering to casual players you've simply nerfed a good endgame goal which means people will quit Season's just as fast as they do now.
I honestly don't see how nerfing Primals + making them even more rare than 1% is ever a good idea.

You just contradicted yourself within the same paragraph. Nice work.

Just wait for the next patchnotes - i'll bet you'll see some more interesting changes.
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.


Perfect.

Now just give us a way to reroll more than one stat and we have a deal. A real endgame gear.
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.


I feel like my message still hasn't been heard here. At all. Which is a bit upsetting.

Again, my major issue with the approach to itemization (the Design Philosophy) -- is that the old version of Primals & this soon-to-be version don't dynamically change how players approach itemization, nor does it improve our game-play experience. Game-play remains the same.

In fact, I actually preferred the previous iteration to the new one. This incoming variation, because of it's rarity and GR70 drop gate, astronomically alienates players. A lot of people simply aren't ever going to see a Primal now. And those that can aren't going to be doing anything different than what they are doing currently doing -- endless grinding while occasionally getting a small upgrade. At least Primals, as they were originally presented, were more available to any player.

Somehow, you walked away with
  • Make Primals more exclusive
  • Make Primals a slight stat boost / power creep instead of a major one
  • Increase salvage reward

And... that just doesn't make much sense in regards to what I was originally advocating for with my thread. I'm pretty disappointed all around.

I don't know why this is acceptable right now. But I am suggesting again that this philosophy when it comes to itemization be addressed. Primals are a horrific example of adding to the game, but contributing 0 content.

If a new tier of items is going to be added -- it should shake up how players think about and approach itemizing their characters. It should add depth to the current system -- not humor the system's shortcomings in regards to numbers.
They can't appeal to everyone, and they listened to the community about Primal Ancients. We get to keep searching for better gear, and now we will be looking forward to a possible game enhancing change when they update them later. Thank you blizzard for updating a game I bought only once, years ago. All my other games around that time are collecting dust somewhere in my house.
02/13/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Outlaw
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.


I feel like my message still hasn't been heard here. At all. Which is a bit upsetting.

Again, my major issue with the approach to itemization (the Design Philosophy) -- is that the old version of Primals & this soon-to-be version don't dynamically change how players approach itemization, nor does it improve our game-play experience. Game-play remains the same.

In fact, I actually preferred the previous iteration to the new one. This incoming variation, because of it's rarity and GR70 drop gate, astronomically alienates players. A lot of people simply aren't ever going to see a Primal now. And those that can aren't going to be doing anything different than what they are doing currently doing -- endless grinding while occasionally getting a small upgrade. At least Primals, as they were originally presented, were more available to any player.

Somehow, you walked away with
  • Make Primals more exclusive
  • Make Primals a slight stat boost / power creep instead of a major one
  • Increase salvage reward

And... that just doesn't make much sense in regards to what I was originally advocating for with my thread. I'm pretty disappointed all around.

I don't know why this is acceptable right now. But I am suggesting again that this philosophy when it comes to itemization be addressed. Primals are a horrific example of adding to the game, but contributing 0 content.

If a new tier of items is going to be added -- it should shake up how players think about and approach itemizing their characters. It should add depth to the current system -- not humor the system's shortcomings in regards to numbers.


Sadly, this game is pretty old...and im pretty sure that we cant ask for major itemization overhaul. It is too late.
What ia gree with you is some players will never sniff primals because of the 70 GR gap... but still it is doable doe the ones who are truly interested.
02/13/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Outlaw
I feel like my message still hasn't been heard here. At all. Which is a bit upsetting.


Maybe not your exact message, but the new design aligns with a ton of feedback that I've read over the past 2 weeks. Obviously not all of it, but getting a consensus on anything with a large group of people isn't going to happen.

02/13/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Outlaw
Somehow, you walked away with
Make Primals more exclusive
Make Primals a slight stat boost / power creep instead of a major one
Increase salvage reward


There is 0 power creep because perfect items are already possible. While the "primal" tag is more exclusive, their worth is in easier min-max of current available stats. An extremely well rolled ancient is now much closer to perfect than in their current iteration.


02/13/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Outlaw
If a new tier of items is going to be added -- it should shake up how players think about and approach itemizing their characters. It should add depth to the current system -- not humor the system's shortcomings in regards to numbers.


The issue with that is that it will alienate players, because a new tier by definition needs to be more rare, and if it shakes things up too much, it alienates those who don't play nearly as much.

This was my issue with the outrage over primals to begin with. Sure they are boring, but if something new and game changing is going to happen, it shouldn't be with a new tier of more rare items, it needs to be a new supplemental system (tree, charms, jewels, something more interesting I'm not thinking of).

I really think that a lot of people misunderstood the goal of primals from the get-go, but the new iteration, from everything I've read, seems to be a decent compromise.

I hope to see something that mixes things up in a more interesting way at some point.
02/13/2017 04:07 PMPosted by Hydde
Sadly, this game is pretty old...and im pretty sure that we cant ask for major itemization overhaul. It is too late.
What ia gree with you is some players will never sniff primals because of the 70 GR gap... but still it is doable doe the ones who are truly interested.

This is basically why a lot of players were so desperate for an expansion announcement at Blizzcon'16. An expansion would mean enough contributed resources to either introduce a substantial new system or overhaul an existing one -- so that players could enjoy new game-play with more depth and have more variation in the endless grind.
02/13/2017 02:57 PMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all,

As we mentioned previously, getting your feedback on Primal Ancients has been super helpful. We’ve heard some really good points, and along with this, we’ll be making some changes to how these items work in an upcoming PTR patch.

Rather than increase the power they give you beyond Ancient items, Primal Ancients will now instead roll perfect Ancient-level stats tailored to the character class you’re playing when the item first drops. Rerolling any of these at the Mystic will also yield only perfect rolls.

Along with this, these items will be even more rare than they currently are, and will only begin dropping after a character on your account has completed Greater Rift 70 solo (with separate unlocks for Hardcore and normal characters).

Finally, we hear you on wanting Ancient and Primal Ancient items to salvage into something more valuable. With the upcoming PTR patch, Ancient items will salvage into 3 Forgotten Souls, and Primal Ancients will salvage into 15 Forgotten Souls (yay reforging \o/).

We’re looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had a chance to test these changes. Thanks again, and happy hunting.


I'm actually sad by those changes. We (me and some friends) were happy we would have something to look for at high paragons (and by high I mean even before 1k), now we are back to the boring paragon-only grind. Even worse, considering we may get this perfect item here and there, I expect to reach this boring point even earlier. You are making the end game less appealing to make casuals happy, players that will stop after 2 weeks anyway. Unfortunately they are the majority :(
This change will have no affect on gearing your character. There will still be a "best" build.

This change will not shake up the meta. There will be no experimenting. There will be no excitement of "Oh I found a Primal Rimeheart! Awesome! Let me make a build based around this amazing weapon!"

You should just make Ancients more rare, scrap Primals, and call it a day.
There is 0 power creep because perfect items are already possible. While the "primal" tag is more exclusive, their worth is in easier min-max of current available stats. An extremely well rolled ancient is now much closer to perfect than in their current iteration.

That's still a form of power creep. They have statistically increased the chances that you'll find an "Ancient" (Primal) that has perfect stats. Thus increasing chances that players find an upgrade sooner that pushes them slightly further on the scale in regards to the game's current content.

This sort of happenstance was improbable due to the nature of stat range rolls. Now -- if you play in that range of content -- it has gone from improbable to probable.

Not the biggest form of power creep, I admit, but also not the point. The point is -- it's a statistical change. It still contributes nothing to game-play and adds 0 depth to itemization.

At the end of the day, you're going to be doing the same thing whether it's in Torment 1, GR30, or GR90+. Primals only change the range you fall into -- they may as well have not introduced them at all.

:\
I like the idea of Primals to have maybe 3 main stats and 3 secondary.
Retaining the original legendary effect but gain a new legendary effect that boosts passive skills.

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