Primal Ancients: Issues With Design Philosophy

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Primal Ancients are a terrible and lazy design choice. Others have already made plenty of points as to why and alternatives to make things better. I'm just adding my voice to the pile.
Primals are a very bad decision IMO. Until they have done something about the unused sets/items, and balanced the class skills more, I think we've had enough power creep. I don't like the illusion of progress, pushing with the same set over and over season after season only to get higher everytime because some extra digits were added somewhere. Its cool to have something to work for, but with augmenting and GG ancients being kind of annoying to already obtain, I don't see the upside to adding items that will surely create more of a gap in the player base.
They could spent more times doing/thinking of other useful stuffs and this is what they came up with...
LOL ROFL LMAO

Both Ancient and whatever-this-tier-of-legendary-items-is are needless. So are the massive damage buff by sets/legendaries. So is Torment 11 or higher.
I mean if they came up with some more depth of gameplay they don't even need to implement Ancient items and/or Torment 11 and/or ridiculous damage buffs in the first place.
Builds are gated by gears and only some gear combinations give me the efficiency I want. It's a problem with many, many games but in this game, it's so obvious it's like the devs try to shove it into my face.

I'm not complaining because the new contents aren't what I want, but I'm disappointed of what the devs came up with all this time. Repetitive. Boring. Unimaginative. RNGesus-dammed.

"They [Diablo 3 devs] were never very imaginative." -Zoltun Kulle-
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


Any sneak peek? It would really help the on-going discussion.
+1 to the above. It would be nice if we could actively engage in discussion about what the devs are thinking about changing Primals to based on feedback. More common? Higher stat ranges? Everything rerollable?

Communication is key this early on in PTR. Are you checking all the primal related threads in the PTR feedback, or just this one?
02/03/2017 05:50 PMPosted by Tephnos
+1 to the above. It would be nice if we could actively engage in discussion about what the devs are thinking about changing Primals to based on feedback. More common? Higher stat ranges? Everything rerollable?

Communication is key this early on in PTR.


I find it unlikely that they will make it more common. It would kind of defeat the whole purpose.

Maybe they will "tighten" up the range to make it more likely to be good (for example, CHD is currently 51-100% for amulets. It could become 81-100%. Cooldown reduction could be 7-8% for gloves/shoulders).

They can't do miracles with BT sets or other garbage items though.
02/03/2017 05:50 PMPosted by Tephnos
Communication is key this early on in PTR. Are you checking all the primal related threads in the PTR feedback, or just this one?


We're definitely looking at multiple threads, it's just much easier for us to pick a centralized location to converse.

On a related note, it's easier on us if there's more of a centralized discussion, so while other threads likely won't go unnoticed, it's much easier for us to parse one thread on a topic than fifty.
02/03/2017 05:53 PMPosted by DoomBringer
02/03/2017 05:50 PMPosted by Tephnos
+1 to the above. It would be nice if we could actively engage in discussion about what the devs are thinking about changing Primals to based on feedback. More common? Higher stat ranges? Everything rerollable?

Communication is key this early on in PTR.


I find it unlikely that they will make it more common. It would kind of defeat the whole purpose.

Maybe they will "tighten" up the range to make it more likely to be good (for example, CHD is currently 51-100% for amulets. It could become 81-100%. Cooldown reduction could be 7-8% for gloves/shoulders).

They can't do miracles with BT sets or other garbage items though.


I can't say for sure what the dev team are thinking, as we're not privvy to their discussions. For the last few patches over the years they've been making gearing easier and easier, and now suddenly we're back to extremely hard gear?

I just can't follow their design philosophies.
02/03/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Nevalistis
02/03/2017 05:50 PMPosted by Tephnos
Communication is key this early on in PTR. Are you checking all the primal related threads in the PTR feedback, or just this one?


We're definitely looking at multiple threads, it's just much easier for us to pick a centralized location to converse.

On a related note, it's easier on us if there's more of a centralized discussion, so while other threads likely won't go unnoticed, it's much easier for us to parse one thread on a topic than fifty.


In that case, I'll cross-post link my own expanded thread on an earlier post for visibility, just in case it gets glanced over:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20753316235
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


See the suggestion below. This keeps the grind but allows us to control some rng to get the one (or a few) primals that we want. getting a primal weapon is a big DPS boost where bad luck will frustrate your players no end. See Brevik's comments. There is truth in it.

02/03/2017 01:14 PMPosted by MicroRNA
I suggest a new recipe for the cube. When primal ancients are salvaged, a “primal soul” results. The cube will use X number of primal souls (something that is fair like 25-50 primal souls) + a legendary item to convert it to its primal equivalent. This would keep it in line with Blizzard’s desire to keep its players grinding ad nauseum and will make those primal ancient drops of blackthornes, exarian sword, tyrael’s might less likely to result in throwing your computer out the window. Also, this recipe does not require people to grind bounties all day just to get material for reforging.
02/03/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Nevalistis
On a related note, it's easier on us if there's more of a centralized discussion, so while other threads likely won't go unnoticed, it's much easier for us to parse one thread on a topic than fifty.


Please add a GAP between Ancients and Primals weapon damage range. Almost as good as a thigh gap.

02/01/2017 03:26 AMPosted by Davlok
So here is the current chart of DPS and average hit ranges for Normal vs Ancient vs Primal.

http://i.imgur.com/Ej1OhmH.png

Essentially
The best ancient weapon damage roll is equivalent to the WORST primal weapon damage roll. There should be a gap such that the worst primal ancient is fairly significantly better than the best rolled ancient. This was the same feedback given when the PTR 2.1.2 was added with the best normal roll = the worst ancient roll, and buffed before 2.1.2 went live.

Current PTR 2.5.0.43355 Ranges:
1H: (1582-1872) - (1932-2328)
2H: (1899-2244) - (2319-2790)
FAST: (1386-1638) - (1692-2040)

Proposed 2.5 Damage Roll Ranges:
1H: (1681-1872) - (2053-2328)
2H: (2018-2244) - (2464-2790)
FAST: (1473-1638) - (1798-2040)

Chart showing the above proposed changes:
http://i.imgur.com/FTjJdto.png

This would be ~28% higher MINIMUM damage roll than the current +20%. The Maximum damage roll can be adjusted as well, I figure keeping it at the current 20% is ok. That would add the same gap between Primals and Ancients as there would be between Ancients and Normal. Keep in mind this doesn't factor in the increased stats, which are not nearly as important as the base damage roll.

As for my opinion on Primals as a whole, I'd like to see a more interesting solution, but trying to provide feedback that has a chance to be implemented ^_^;
I'd say if they have to stay, then make them give an additional Modifier. Make them more then just Ancients 2.0 . Don't even increase the main stat at all, but instead allow for the possibility of a duplicate mod. That way we can pick (through the mystic) if we want 2X CC or double the Mainstat, or just another mod we might desire. Whatever. This might open up a little more diversity and make it worth burning an augmentation for.

P.S. I'm not talking about crappy secondary mods either. XD
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.

Ah, good news then. I'm glad to hear you guys are keeping an eye on everything.

I'm excited to see what sorts of changes the team has planned. I am of the opinion that Diablo 3 could use some game-play shake ups -- and an interesting change in itemization would be a fantastic starting step.
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


I'll post this idea here for you to read since this thread looks to be your focus for ideas on primals.

02/01/2017 10:07 AMPosted by Jumpman
Instead of adding primal ancients which is just another harder tier of the same item give us a way to upgrade to primal stats instead. Seasons are 3 months and sometimes its very hard to find the ancient version of the item you want (Ancient WOH for example) just imagine trying to get Primal Ancients in the same season; That would be incredibly hard with a 1% drop chance.

Instead give us a Cube recipe that allows us upgrade each individual stat to primal. Here's my idea

Primal Stat Upgrade Cube Recipe
2 Ramaladni's Gift
1 Level 70+ Legendary Gem
100 Forgotten Souls
500 Veiled Crystals
500 Arcane Dust
500 Reusable Parts
250 Death Breaths
500,000 Million Gold


Using this recipe not only Re-rolls that stat randomly, but it increases that stat to the new Primal Stat ranges. This recipe can be used to increase all stats to Primal and this recipe can be re-used on an already rolled Primal Stat. The Mystic can not re-roll Primal Stats even if she previously re-rolled it when it wasnt Primal. Once its primal you can only re-roll the specific stat by using the recipe again on that stat.

New Primal Stat Ranges

CD, CC, Main Stat (30% boost)
IAS, CDR, RCR, Elite Damage (45% boost)
Vitality, Class specific stats (like life per fury, APOC) (60% boost)
Armor, AR, Life Regeneration, Life Per Hit (75% boost)
Individual resist secondary stats (75% boost)
All other secondary stats (100% boost)


If you just give all stats a 30% boost then everyone will continue to be forced to use the CC, CD, Main stat combination because of how much better they are compared to the rest. If you give higher stat boosts to those stats that are weighted much less like defense oriented then this gives the player more customization options and allows them to build a more tanky character instead of a pure glass cannon character. This also makes it where you feel good about trading some CC/CD for Armor/life per second instead of making you feel bad by loose 15% + damage by rolling off CC/CD for stats that are to low and feels like a very underwhelming choice over going pure CC/CD stats.
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


What are these potential significant changes?

D3 has been hamstrung by a variety of technical hurdles in the past. What exactly are the technical hurdles to overcome for primal ancients? Is it development time, manning, money, all of the above?

This is the perfect time for whomever is spearheading the primal ancient design to step forth and have some open dialog with the community. If this is great design it should be easy to explain why it's a good thing for D3 and how it improves the loot hunt, replay value and longevity of the game. I'd really love to understand where the dev's heads are on this one and where they think the challenges lie.

This team has constantly missed opportunities to improve community relations, don't miss another one that's right in front of you.
Of course it is possible, my thread was already noticed, but since this seems to be the new primal discussion thread, I hope it is okay to quote my Ideas here again :)

Hey everyone,

I got three ideas to improve the thrill of primals and wanted to provide them here:

Idea #1: (that one can be seen as Plan Z, tho)
Make them less rare! A chance of 1% is way to rare for most players and the disappointment when you finally get one and it rolled totally garbage will ruin the fun completely. I'm not a balance specialist, but maybe you should consider raising ancient chance to 20% and set primal ancient chance to 20%, too. So it is at least a 4% chance to get one. +/- 1% and maybe add a bonus chance for a specific gamemode like Storymode to make it another worth option for players again?

Idea #2:
There is no reason why an ancient item should stop be ancient, if you reforge it. Same goes for primals. Change reforge mechanic to keep that quality. So after you finally got a desired item you can fix it by reforge. If you think, that getting good items will be to easy that way, there are 2 options to compensate:
(1) - Reforge can't upgrade the quality anymore. So you have to find an ancient or primal to reforge it to another ancient/primal.
(2) - Make it much more expensive to reforge. Double the cost for ancients, tripple it for primals. I guess 15 mats of each act and 150 souls won't make people reforge their primals to often.
But that are just ideas, just adjust or compensate like you think it's fair.

Idea #3
Make every affix that can't roll any higher anyway always roll with maximum stats. That would make finding a primal much more exciting. Of course it can still roll the wrong affixes, but at least it rolled with maximum legendary power, maximum CD, RCR, CHC, CHD, Elemental, %Life etc. If you think that would be to strong, apply it to legendary power only at least or make them even more rare. But I think, if you finally find a primal, it should be awesome!

Feel free to comment with your feedback, questions, critic or whatever you want to say :)

Thanks in advance and best whishes
02/03/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Loving the amount of thoughtful and constructive discourse on this topic. We knew introducing Primal Ancients would be somewhat controversial, because they are meant to be very rare, and we appreciate the time and effort you all have taken to testing them thus far. We're reading as many threads, watching as many videos, and listening to as many streams as possible to gather your thoughts and reflect on them.

There are definitely some good and valid concerns, and we are going to be making some significant design changes with Primal Ancients. These changes aren't set in stone and have some technical hurdles behind them, so they won't be making the next PTR patch, but a future one instead.


Although I was a supporter of the Primal Ancient (as opposed to many other feedback), I am also happy to see changes related to the design. My opinion is always that current Primal Ancient design is better than nothing, but is a very simplified design that could be made to more interesting ones.

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