R6 generator testing / discussion

Monk
Since Davlok's amazing thread hit the bump limit, a place for me to continue posting my test results / others to comment on them.

I was going to quote a recap of the previous thread but there are so many good, long posts in there that I wouldn't be able to recap it all without taking up half of this thread already.
I tested out some more combinations:

First, I tested a quad-gen setup (picking up RT as holy gen). I ran into the same issues as Vox: not enough spirit, extra benefit from RT not worth the loss of FitL / BoH.

It seems like BoH in general is the best performer for trigen setups because

1. additive damage is useless in groups
2. you need that extra spirit on hit when FD just decides to stop procing during your non-quickening elements

I'm getting about 5:20 consistently from my {Q} / WFF / SG / BoH tests. (I lost the exact figures due to bump limit eating them)

One thing I should mention is that my earlier ~5:00 tests are sort of invalidated by the extra 10% from templar I was getting during those. At first I thought the difference was almost negligible but re-doing those it's clear that lack of templar adds an extra 20s or so. Another thing I should point out is that during all of my tests, I'm not deliberately re-proccing combination strike, so for the most part I'm just getting the 20% bonus - not 30%/40%, even in trigen setups. I think this is more faithful to reality because of additive skill damage being less useful in groups than in solo.

What I still haven't determined to near enough certainty is whether or not Q-attunement beats out WFF-attunement or not.

Thanks for the test results, think you could try a test with Hands of Lightning? Totally skipped my mind if the extra 3 hits from the 2nd strike resulted in a longer cast animation or not. Maybe it stacks stricken faster! ^_^

Sure thing. I'll do a handful of tests for now, maybe more later. (They take forever!)

{Q} / HoL / SG / BoH, 4s cadence:
5:42 with bad FD procs
5:12

Btw, wouldn't FoF be better than HoL for stacking stricken and also FD uptime?
{Q} / FoF / SG / BoH, 4s cadence:
6:10

This felt a lot worse, too. FoF's damage is just so low post-nerf, and the proc rate isn't high enough either to make up for it.

Q / {HoL} / SG / BoH:
5:42 (4s cadence)
6:04 (6s cadence)

I'd have to perform way more tests on this one to compare it accurately against {WFF}, but my gut impression is that the potentially faster stricken stacking (?) doesn't make up for the loss in damage. There are so many other things I still want to test as well, though...
I usually use good old media player classic and the arrow keys to go frame by frame. I'm sure there is a better player out there... but then again I still use MS Paint. Can you even go frame by frame on YT?

I use mpv for youtube videos, so I can :p

Some more things that are on my to-test list, if anybody else wants to join in:

1. What's better, 4s cadence or 6s cadence? (To clarify: I mean recasting DS every 4s, once per element swap or every 6s - once on the swap and once in betwen)

2. Duo-gen setups. Very interesting set of possibilities here. The ones I'd be most curious about are {WFF} / Q / BoH / FitL and {HoL} / Q / BoH / FitL.
03/01/2017 10:11 AMPosted by nand
{WFF} / Q / BoH / FitL

5:55
(at 6s cadence)

The loss of a third element is definitely noticeable, even though you gain blinding flash. Additive damage just isn't all that strong anymore, on top of your primary gen. In groups you're getting like 1/3-1/2 value from it, so FitL is like a 15% damage buff at best (realistically speaking).

So you could either spend your Cold, Fire rotation doing:

- 4s of WFF: 200% coe, 60% ele%, 15% FitL, 15% skill% = 6.24x
- 4s of WFF: 60% ele%, 15% skill% = 1.84x

or:

- 4s of WFF: 200% coe, 60% ele%, 15% skill% = 5.52x
- 4s of SG: 200% coe, X% less damage than WFF = 3*(1-X%)x

For the former to be better than the latter, we can solve this equation to:
6.24 + 1.84 > 5.52 + 3*(1+X%)
2.56 > 3*(1-X%)
0.85 > 1 - X%
X% > 1 - 0.85 = 0.15


In other words: If SG does >15% less DPS than WFF (base), then it would be better to go FitL and pop it during cold instead of using SG during fire.

Looking at Davlok's chart, at 5 APS they seem to perform at a ratio that's something like 22 vs 25; or 0.88 = 12% worse.

So based on this and my testing, in groups, trigens with SG are still better than duogens + FitL. This is even ignoring the extra potential combo strike benefit you get.

I won't bother testing {HoF} / Q / BoH / FitL because HoF seems unpromising compared to WFF in general. If it does stack stricken faster, it's not noticeable even at 6 minute tests.
03/01/2017 10:09 AMPosted by nand
I'm not deliberately re-proccing combination strike, so for the most part I'm just getting the 20% bonus - not 30%/40%, even in trigen setups.


Combo Strike does not require re-proccing unless you stop using all generators for more than 3 seconds.

You need only use each gen once during the 5 minutes, and as long as you are attacking with a gen, the combo strike buff will stay up.

03/01/2017 10:09 AMPosted by nand
It seems like BoH in general is the best performer for trigen setups because

1. additive damage is useless in groups
2. you need that extra spirit on hit when FD just decides to stop procing during your non-quickening elements


To be more precise...

1. Additive damage isn't useless. Its true edps contribution is roughly halved (as we mathed out in last thread). That's still substantial.

2. A dash costs you 75*.9 = 67.5 spirit at 10 RCR. If I'm doing my math correctly, having max spirit (394) is a ± 21% edps increase over the post-dash spirit state (326.5).

Regardless of FD proc, BOH works to quickly restore that 21.0% edps. In non-BOH builds, it is still nearly unavoidable that you will sometimes fail at maintaining high spirit during main gen COE. There is a VERY strong case for keeping BOH in all specs except Quickening/Phys main gen.

To clear up something you mentioned earlier, BOH is not ideally used "when spirit dips" but instead according to the following rules (for CDR < ~30):

1. In advance of main gen COE to ensure 100% spirit at start, and if possible through main gen COE. This is often during the start of the element preceding main gen COE element.

2. If spirit remains maxed, do not activate BOH for main gen COE.

3. Even if spirit is maxed following COE main gen, use BOH preemptively so that it is back off cooldown for the next COE phase preceding main COE gen. This covers the contingency of FD dropping during the 3-4 elements prior to main gen COE and greatly improves DPS while still letting you have BOH available for main gen.

With these rules you get 1) ± guaranteed max spirit on main COE gen, 2) higher avg spirit outside of main COE gen.

The rules change if you have something like 3 x 10 CDR rolls. At this CDR, I believe you can squarely fit in 2 BOH activations per total COE cycle. Under this condition, you just need properly time the BOH activations to maximize spirit during COE main gen (i.e., activate near start of COE element preceding COE main).

Incidentally that 21% drop in EDPS after dash can be further minimized by dashing at 3/4 progress through the element preceding main element, and never during the main element.
These are kind of a long shot but here are a few tests, supposing you have a pair of Depth Diggers and a CoE that looks at least somewhat close to what this character is wearing:
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/StoleOwnCar-1814/hero/80130013

Put RoRG in cube and wear said CoE and pants (these test have to be gear comparable at least....)

Test cases:
1. Frostburn in cube, WFF as main attack. For qualitative purposes, I'd prefer this tested against a moving target vs other options but eh I guess it'd be hard to compare results then
2. Eye of Peshkov in cube, any viable generators
3. The Mind's Eye in cube, any viable generators, take off Breath of Heaven and replace it ... or actually unfortunately you'd need a zmonk with you to really test this so nevermind I guess.
4. Fire Walkers, generator doesn't matter.
@Davlok

Ghosting of WotHF's 2nd strike that (sadly) doesn't actually do any damage.
https://gfycat.com/PreciousWearyDuckling


This happens to me all the time in town. Reproducible during high latency. I like the fireworks, and often try to set them off in town while waiting for party so i have some entertainment :)

Unfortunately (maybe) party says they can't see my light show!
03/01/2017 11:04 AMPosted by Vox
@Davlok

Ghosting of WotHF's 2nd strike that (sadly) doesn't actually do any damage.
https://gfycat.com/PreciousWearyDuckling


This happens to me all the time in town. Reproducible during high latency. I like the fireworks, and often try to set them off in town while waiting for party so i have some entertainment :)

Unfortunately (maybe) party says they can't see my light show!


I wanted to respond to davlok, but he capped the old thread.

If you slow down his video it seems the damage just hits at start and doesn't match the animation which continues. It's still weird but I don't think its not doing damage.

set to 0.125 playback speed, it makes it easier to see.
http://prntscr.com/eesqzq
A similar mathematical examination of another open question I had; {Q} vs {WFF}, in a Q/WFF/SG trigen setup:

The fire element is static, so we can ignore it. Apart from that, we can either do the following rotations:

- (phys) 4s of Q: 200% CoE, 60% ele, 15% skill% = 5.52x
- (cold) 4s of WFF: 200% CoE, X% stronger than Q = 3*(1+X%)x
- (holy, ltng) 8s of Q: 60% ele, 15% skill% = 1.84x
total: 5.52 + 2*1.84 + 3*(1+X%) = 12.2 + 3*X%

or:

- (phys) 4s of Q: 200% CoE = 3x
- (cold) 4s of WFF: 200% CoE, 60% ele, 15% skill%, X% stronger than Q = 5.52*(1+X%)x
- (holy, ltng) 8s of WFF: 60% ele, 15% skill%, X% stronger than Q, Y spirit coefficient = 1.84*(1+X%)*Yx
total: 3 + 5.52*(1+X%) + 2*1.84*(1+X%)*Y, where Y is a coefficient due to less spirit on average during these elements. (I omitted the coefficient from cold because it's right after physical, so you'll have full spirit)

For X (how much stronger WFF is than Q), I'm going to plug in 25/23 = 8.7% more (based on davlok chart). This makes it a comparison between 12.461 and 9 + 4*Y.

For the first to be stronger than the second, we can solve:
12.461 > 9 + 4*Y
3.461 > 4*Y
0.8652 > Y


In other words, you would on average have to receive only ~86% of your spirit multiplier or less for quickening to be worth it based on spirit alone. Since you gain 1.5% damage per spirit point, and you have about 400, this is equal to:

0.8652 = (1 + 1.5% * Z)/(1 + 1.5% * 400)
= (1 + 1.5% * Z)/7
6.0563 = 1 + 1.5% * Z
5.0563 = 1.5% * Z
337 = Z


So basically, if you have 84% or less of your spirit on average, you would be better off with quickening instead.

NOTE: This is assuming the Q damage split mechanic is only hitting a single mob. I re-did the math for a 2-mob split scenario and quickening would only be better than WFF if you actually had less than 25 spirit, which is 6% of your pool.

Bottom line: {Q} is better than {WFF} if and only if you are hitting a single mob, and you would be below 84% spirit without quickening.

The lack of being able to deal with 2 mobs alone makes me feel it's not worth it simply for consistency. You can't always ensure there are no adds in range. And sometimes, you even want to have ~1 add in range of your splash, to get StI. On top of this, WFF performs significantly better on yellows within the rift. (Not that it matters much)
There is someone fairly high on season leaderboards that pushed with a quickening-based setup. I'd say overall it's more than worth it simply because I feel like it would be much easier to play. Much less spirit juggling, so you can focus on avoidance and dps. Plus as a friend of mine pointed out, the nice thing about FoT is that it locks onto the target very well. It has its advantages for moving type RGs.
03/01/2017 10:56 AMPosted by Vox
1. Additive damage isn't useless. Its true edps contribution is roughly halved (as we mathed out in last thread). That's still substantial.

Yeah, fair enough. I should stop propagating misleading information in that regard.

03/01/2017 10:56 AMPosted by Vox
2. A dash costs you 75*.9 = 67.5 spirit at 10 RCR. If I'm doing my math correctly, having max spirit (394) is a ± 21% edps increase over the post-dash spirit state (326.5).

This is actually something I only noticed while doing the math for my previous post: Even a tiny bit of missing spirit, which seems visually tiny, is a lot of lost DPS. It also occurred to me that I was not using shenlong's with +spirit for my tests; but in exchange for this, I had additional RCR rolls on my gear. Miraculously, both worked out to the exact same error in opposite directions - so the cost of DS relative to how much spirit I had was still the exact same. That said, it did inflate the value of 4s cadence tests because I was generating more spirit per second relative to how much I was spending.

03/01/2017 10:56 AMPosted by Vox
To clear up something you mentioned earlier, BOH is not ideally used "when spirit dips" but instead according to the following rules:

Interesting approach. It never occurred to me because I never before looked at the numbers of just how much the loss of the DS spirit hurts during main element, that BoH is optimally always used during/after main element.

I'll do a couple of tests to experience this first-hand. One thing that comes to mind though, is that with a 6s cadence the “polarity” of the main element always inverts during every cycle. So if you want to optimally cast DS during the mid-point of the physical ele (to get the full benefit with full spirit during main element), you'd need to cast DS at the beginning of the lightning ele - rather than at the halfway point (as you would coming into the cycle). This might make it a good idea to switch to quickening a bit early into the lightning cycle to top up spirit more quickly if necessary.
03/01/2017 11:39 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
I'd say overall it's more than worth it simply because I feel like it would be much easier to play. Much less spirit juggling, so you can focus on avoidance and dps.

Yep, it would also be more enjoyable for farming key upgrades etc for sure (as opposed to extreme pushing).

03/01/2017 11:41 AMPosted by nand
I'll do a couple of tests to experience this first-hand.

{WFF} / Q / SG / BoH:
5:33
5:44 with some extremely bad FD procs
5:35
5:30

The way I decided to handle the 6s DS cadence was by switching to quickening early, at the beginning of the lightning cycle, and double casting DS during it. This allows my typical rotation to look like this:

1. Lightning: cast DS at beginning, generate spirit with Q
2. Physical: Keep Q held, cast DS at halfway, top up spirit
3. Cold: Max spirit throughout (FD active)
4. Fire: cast DS+BoH, max spirit throughout again
5. Holy: Switch back to WFF, still max spirit due to BoH. Cast DS at midway point, spirit usually starts dropping here
The cycle repeats here.

This typically me a full WFF-SG-WFF burst cycle together with two Q-Q regeneration cycles (of which the second is technically also a “burst” cycle). It also allows me to make full of use of the physical element, while mitigating the awkward DS double- cast to the relatively useless lightning element.

(When FD is not active for cold, it looks a bit different - but the main hit is to the holy element, not a huge deal)

Interestingly, despite feeling much more “optimized” (in terms of my gameplay), it's performing ever so slightly worse than my earlier ~5:20ish {Q} tests. That being said, it's within the margin of error (standard deviation is very high).
03/01/2017 12:26 PMPosted by nand
This typically me a full WFF-SG-WFF burst cycle together with two Q-Q regeneration cycles. It also allows me to make full of use of the physical element, while mitigating the awkward DS double- cast to the relatively useless lightning element.

I decided to implement this on d3planner, so I could use it as a theoretical basis for changes to the setup. One thing I don't feel near confident about that d3planner accurately simulates enough is FD bad luck streaks. It seems to assume a consistently, unrealistically high FD uptime of ~94%. But in reality, it's more like it differs between 70% and 90%. The FD proc coefficient must be too high or something.

This is the reason for why it sims lower than the FitL setup.

http://www.d3planner.com/992622982

(Have a look at the “skill priority” in the simulate tab, that's where the magic is)

Edit: I went the extra mile and also fully simulated the {Q} variants, as well as the FitL variants. The rules I came up with seem to be optimal - “simplifications” reduce DPS.

As the skill rules make painfully obvious, the {Q} setup is much easier to play than the {WFF} setup, at the cost of only slightly less DPS. In fact, the main benefit of the {Q} setup is that you can dash every 4s and get 100% uptime on radiance, which bumps you up to the 6 / 6 / 9 BP (up from 6 / 6 / 10) even when StI is down. Then use BoH whenever you enter the cold/fire burst 2-phase et viola.

Edit 2: Also added WFF+Q duogen setup. It sims lower, as expected based on my calculations earlier.
03/01/2017 01:02 PMPosted by nand
It seems to assume a consistently, unrealistically high FD uptime of ~94%. But in reality, it's more like it differs between 70% and 90%. The FD proc coefficient must be too high or something.

I googled around a bit and found this simulator: http://freakinsweetapps.com/flying-dragon-up-time-calculator/

Plugging my adjusted, breakpointed average FoT APS into this (~5.66) as the baseline gives me ~80% FD uptime on this tool (StI active), and ~72% FD uptime without StI (4.6 real APS).

Poking into the source code, this tool uses 5s ICD, 7s dur, 0.04 proc coefficient. Meanwhile, d3planner uses 5s ICD, 7s dur, 0.05 proc coefficient.

I'll try reporting a bug.
I still don't understand how the discussion now is just between {WFF}, Q, SG gen or {Q}, WFF, SG gen as the best RG killers. Based on Davlok's STDPS charts, isn't TC the highest dps - if so what would be the combination of skills you would use with TC? Of course I'm going off the assumption we're only talking about RG fights since this is what gen monks are in the meta for.
Nice follow-up to the discussion in Davloks GREAT thread...!

Without trying to do the math (its late over here & i am a bit challenged in the math-department)... What about Focus & Restraint + Hellfire?

Thought process behind that question basically is:

-If we are using generators with different elements on the corresponding coe-cycle, the lost +elemental-dmg from not using SoJ may not hurt that much

-FnR should be more easy to get with great rolls compared to a SoJ + Compass Rose combination (same for hellfire compared to t-pledge)

-Being more mobile due to not being tied that hard to one coe-cycle / not losing part of endless-walk bonus for moving to much (possibly letting us make better use of oculus-procs)

-5th passive obv.

Anyone tried / mathed that out already? (Or would like to give it a try...)

P.S.: All the gg-rolled Thundergods Vigors i somehow find lately make me think about using this belt IF going with a lightning-generator as main-dps... Or is WH 100% BiS for all viable setups?
03/01/2017 04:40 PMPosted by Takka
Without trying to do the math (its late over here & i am a bit challenged in the math-department)... What about Focus & Restraint + Hellfire?

- FnR buff lasts 5 seconds, but our R6 DS buff lasts 6 seconds. This makes it totally impractical for specs which need to min-max the DS buff to the extreme (WFF-attuned). So if anything, this would fit into a {Q} spec, as those both have enough spirit to and benefit from dashing every 4 secs.

- There's not really a good fourth DPS passive to use. Unity is an option (20% additive), but it comes out poorly due to DR. Relentless Assault is a hard 20% multiplier, but even assuming your zmonk can have 100% blind uptime (he can't, due to CC DR), it sims out to just about the same DPS as the stock setup.

You could of course use a fourth defensive passive instead, but then you're also incurring a DPS loss - might as well replace combination strike and continue using TP/TCR/SoJ. It's not just the element roll - the 30% elite damage also hurts badly.

03/01/2017 04:40 PMPosted by Takka
P.S.: All the gg-rolled Thundergods Vigors i somehow find lately make me think about using this belt IF going with a lightning-generator as main-dps... Or is WH 100% BiS for all viable setups?

Simply equipping TV is a 20% loss in DPS. The 15% elemental damage (which suffers from DR due to the 60% you already have and isn't active all the time) nowhere near makes up for it.

Seems like WH is 100% BiS, no questions asked.
03/01/2017 03:10 PMPosted by BaesedGod
I still don't understand how the discussion now is just between {WFF}, Q, SG gen or {Q}, WFF, SG gen as the best RG killers. Based on Davlok's STDPS charts, isn't TC the highest dps - if so what would be the combination of skills you would use with TC?

I plan on revisiting TC after fixing the flying dragon anomaly on d3planner. The insanely high FD uptimes it reports are making quickening seem much worse than it is.

In practice, I definitely had some issues maintaining spirit with TC - more than d3planner would suggest. I could try designing a WFF-style BiH rotation into the spec and simulating it again, though. I prefer to do this on d3planner though, since I'm not a good pilot and my tests are too random.

In terms of generators, my initial thought would be to pick up WotHF:BF for the 15% IAS (to help combat spirit issues). Not sure about the third generator. CW:BW seemed like an obvious candidate for the buff. But perhaps the WFF/SG combo is just too strong (DPS-wise) to pass up, even for 15% IAS. Tests will tell.
Nice topic. End of second season of monk being RG killer and its about time to try to figure out which build is best for this.
I've played it all this time and tried many builds and will try to add smth from my pov based on practice.

At the moment 3 builds give me best RG killing time:
1.Physical Build
FoT-Q / WoHF-CF / DR-SG or CW-Mangle (doesnt really matter - dmg is the same, CW is more aoe, DR is good for skipping bad areas ,fastruns)
2. Cold Build
WoHF-CF / FoT-Q / DR-SG
3. Lightning Build
FoT-TC / WoHF-CF / DR-SG
BoH or FitL for first (luck on your FD proc will decide which one was to be the best this run), ВoH for second and third.
All of them have their pros and cons and are pretty close in terms of time needed for Rift Guardian, the deciding factor should probably be - which gear of which element u have with best rolls.
Currently using Cold setup with 2 BoH casts ( u need 12.5% cdr gem and 18% cdr from gear) and last 7/5/9 WoHF breakpoint with no STI.
https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mazarini-2847/hero/44724193

Overally this build is also very strong - about 2 min for single target standing still RG at GR 110, though best times were with Physical build (1min 40 sec, but smth like 100% FD uptime probably)

As for passives : u want Combination Strike and either Unity or STI - depends on your build and breakpoints.

And a little offtopic but it corresponds with your passives choice for this build:
Big problem with the game design atm is paragon points redistribution during rift.
To be competetive u will have to do what most players at the
top of LeaderBoards do - Go all out DPS build : skills and passives ( no Harmony) and gear, start the rift with 2-3mil hp and at RG switch to 600k hp (or more in case of dangerous RG). Either u do this or u loose 1min+ on GR 117 and higher.

This of course is currently being done by different players in different ways:
-by hands ( when u pull last pack of mobs go to empty corner or previous floor).
-mouse or keyboard licensed macro drivers.
-3rd party macro programm.
-and what is worst in current situation - bot programm , writing directly to memory , fail free.
Not only this provokes to unhealthy competition but also takes away a big part of planning your character's stats balance. This also is being used for solo pushes. Needs to be fixed asap.

I also have one question-
Situation: we have channeling pylon for RG. As the dashing strike animation speed (velocity or whatever, call it as u wish) afaik is higher than any generators - may it be possible to stack stricken with it faster by just using DS during channeling?
03/01/2017 07:54 PMPosted by Mazarini
Situation: we have channeling pylon for RG. As the dashing strike animation speed (velocity or whatever, call it as u wish) afaik is higher than any generators - may it be possible to stack stricken with it faster by just using DS during channeling?


That's a great question. The infinite dash monk with maxed RCR/Cinder/Pride/Seph simulates channel pylon conditions. Could work that into a fixed duration stricken test for kicks. Maybe this weekend.

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