Unpopular Opinion: D3 is Better Than PoE

Games & Technology
The only thing i like about D3 better than PoE is combat animations/fluidness and the way Whirlwind work over Cyclone. Other than that nothing. The graphics in D3 is way to cartoony and washed out, i like the more "realistic" approach of PoE.

We all play ARPG for exciting drops, and in D3 theres is NONE. Everyone has all the gear pieces they want after a day or two. Which leads to no rare items to chase after, everything is just another item that you need for your build that youre expecting to get. In PoE something super rare could be just around the corner that could fund your entire gear set with good rolls.

Build diversity in D3 there is NONE. Theres a best build for every class, and everyone is playing it and everyone wears the exact same items. Everyone built theyr skilltree the exact same way... oh wait..

PoE has endgame to actually work towards, D3 has no endgame its all a muddled arbitrary greater rift difficulty system. PoE actually has endgame bosses to work towards, which you cant cheese your way to by playing on an "easy difficulty".

If you plan to play for 20 hours in a season, D3 is the way to go, if youre actually playing for a while PoE wins by miles.
03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
Part of the evolution of RPGs has been the direct result of tech upgrades. And yes, I've also played and enjoyed Zelda, too. Frankly, I'd liken Zelda to more of a gameplay ancestor to Diablo, the latter of which went on to add random loot and dungeons. I'd even give mention to likely unknown titles like Alundra (PS1) or Landstalker (Genesis), though both favor puzzles way more than Diablo or even Zelda had.


This is only a small part of it because deep down, deeper down than the level of tech, its been the interest of players and developers to both create and explore bigger deeper canyons of creativity that has spurred the creation of them. tech has most certainly helped but its pretty unfair to dismiss the idea that fans of RPGs do not want more content to examine and muck around in overall and give technology the credit. If we look at tech as the sole arbiter of how deep things are, then that fails to explain the newer final fantasy games being more "on rails and simplified" and also does not explain the new zelda game which from my limited glances appears more like an offshoot of skyrim for all of its running around and interacting with the man made environment. it also does not explain the rulebooks of games far back in the past.

03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
Otherwise, when I mention PoE has masochistic elements, it's that mistakes are excessively punished, and when it comes to builds and the inability to freely completely reset without major patches, dropping money, or mass farming orbs, the path someone takes early on in their tree can ultimately result in a character that can't do the late game.


What you are talking about here is two things. the first thing is free respecs. the idea makes my stomach turn. in Diablo you can click anywhere without thinking about anything because there is zero consequence. zero.

The second thing, Starting over,

In path of exile I dont mind having to commit to re-shaping my character with currency. In path or exile I dont mind having to start again. why?

Because I enjoy struggling and succeeding against the game world, that's why I play, and starting over means I get to choose a new path and experience something new.

Diablo 3 completely misses the deeper meaning. instead of hardship the players are peppered with convenience, and automation, and the interest of starting over is lost, because there is no reason to start over; Once I have leveled 1 barbarian, I have leveled every possible permutation of barbarian. I have leveled nothing grown nothing, chosen nothing, and experienced nothing new along the way. yay.

And if you think its bad to find out your character the way you built it cannot compete in end game, I'm not sure why you defend D3 on this one, when player choice basically does not exist except in painfully limited quantities through the gems and Caldesanns.......

It sounds like instead of being exposed to the chance to fail, you would be content with being cradled right into the basket of success without making a choice?
Because thats exactly what D3 does; it tells you effectively pick set number 1 or set number 2, and pick trifecta everything, or there is a numerical chance that you will not compete at "end game" and the numerical chance is 100%

03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
Far as story goes, being blunt, neither D3 nor PoE are particularly rich in this regard. And maybe that's the direct fault of "Action" in the ARPG genre foregoing exposition and meaningful side characters. Accusing me of not picking up on nuances or jumping to the conclusion I'm an idiot for calling out your claim isn't really doing your position any favors, either.


Im not calling you the idiot personally, I'm just saying in the years path of exile has being going, the players have a very shredded and hazy vision of the story going and pieces of discovered here and there. It's mysterious dark and lost and pieces are missing....and the whole mysterious ton of it all is very much lost on players. and the devs seem to be doing this on purpose and its amazing.

D3 the story is already told years ago, through "power ranger bad guy dialogue" and "butterfly girl killing the most beloved character in the series and that's it...." the nuances of PoE are more like icebergs when compared to D3. Although I do praise D3 in the following ways; Diablo adopting leah's feminine form and the whole Zoltun Kulle backstory about angels and demons being long and pretty detailed......

It's just sad, and sadly expected, that in D3 the good parts of the story are the rare exception to the rule, while in PoE they are not only the norm, they are hardly noticed, and must be looked for and discovered because the create an ominous haze over everything in the game. indeed in the first 2 seconds, the idea that you are a criminal being dumped on an island to fight among the other savages forever lays a pretty descriptive foundation of basically everything you are destined to experience...

03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
Frankly, I'd liken Zelda to more of a gameplay ancestor to Diablo, the latter of which went on to add random loot and dungeons. I'd even give mention to likely unknown titles like Alundra (PS1) or Landstalker (Genesis), though both favor puzzles way more than Diablo or even Zelda had.


03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
Referencing another title, I just finished a clear of Tales of Berseria.


I've heard of Alundra and Tales of Berseria. and yes its pretty funny how much of an "ARPG" the old zelda games happen to be!! I played alot of Ergeiz myself. probably too much...

03/19/2017 07:41 PMPosted by Saidosha
In conclusion, I'm a fan of RPGs. I'm not a fan of bad design mechanics. Such discernment comes from experience, but also a leniency for tech or resources at play. Someone not liking PoE doesn't mean they dislike RPGs. End of story.


I too am a fan of RPGs and not a fan of bad design mechanics, from experience.
which is why when I look at PoE I see the basic building blocks that were used to stack the game into a shape that fans of the genre would more readily accept

when I look at those building blocks as they appear in D3, they fail. they are garbage. stats are the same, characters are uniform, choice is almost non-existent. simplification and automation are unfortunate priorities. its a joke, and a missed opportunity.

Whereas the building blocks of character control and overall polish will obviously DECIMATE PoE. The character control in D3 is basically some of the absolute best I have ever experienced. its insane.

and yes someone disliking PoE for the building blocks in question, It does show that they dislike RPGS, because essentially that is what RPGs they are made up of.

it really give you alot of credit being able to talk about other games in the past and what experience you obviously have, because when the focus is on the hardship of PoE there is very little credit.

if the player's dislike of PoE stems from the hardship of having to restart, the risk of players making a bad decision, the "punishment" of having to devote time and resources to an unforeseen goal or a hindering obstacle.....or in others cases, the needless complexity, when RPGs only exist because they fundamentally offer more to consider and overcome rather than less......

I have no choice but to call people out on that. And when it comes up here on the forums, its often a distraction. The shout about what they feel is wrong with PoE, its so hard and gritty and this and that.......and meanwhile D3 Cant even make legendary items interesting across the board in the amount of time it would take me to prepare for a hike up Mount Everest...

If D3 is better than PoE, it does not have better items, it does not have better character creation, it does not have better customization, it does not have better story, among other things like challenge and complexity and other related "RPG building blocks" that have been understood as such in the past several decades.

D3 has better graphics and action and other such action oriented mainstream values that are NOT associated typically with RPGS at all.
and when you really admit what RPGS generally stand for, its SHOCKINGLY apparent that D3 dropped the ball so hard it may never be recovered in the franchise from this point forward from that perspective.

It became, sadly, for fans of long wide deep RPGs, a shallow automated and pretty action game. And for that may the clueless money hungry devs never be forgiven. they had a thousand simplified and pretty action games to choose from and instead they butchered a rare and treasured ARPG just o add one more to the mainstream pile....its shameful really....
I only grazed the surface on my critiques of PoE, as it's something I've done more in depth in other threads in the past. Despite that, I wouldn't confuse it for an absence of disdain for choices D3 made, either.

My initial post was to solely call out that people who didn't like PoE weren't fans of RPGs. You've gone on to express that like more refined, or at least as much as devs allow, character control. That, to me, is often secondary to the storytelling expected of the RPG experience. Whether the character is completely pre-built or you piece it together, you're still stepping into a role to see the plot to its conclusion. Whether it's open world or on rails is just another sub-genre of the experience.

Now, my stance on penalties and forced rerolls is that they actually curb experimentation. And while you go on to knock D3 for the ease of respec, it's not like I can suddenly play a UE-style build with S6 gear just because I changed my skills around. There's still farming and optimization that needs to be done, the rate of which will vary depending on how one plays on the solo/MP curve. So, while I won't disagree D3 could handle overall endgame builds better (I felt like v1 primals and a modified LoN could've been a gateway), approaching things from the perspective there's only one best build and everything is trash would affect PoE, as well. Pretty much any game with multiplayer co-op deals with that, even if the difference is minimal.
I see where you're coming from, Shurgosa, but I respectfully disagree.

If we could choose a middle or neutral ground, Grim Dawn is a great example. You have deep and varied build options (I would know, having posted one on their forums) and fast paced combat. It also has respec options at a reasonable cost. In terms of storytelling, GD beats both games: well written and communicative. I'm sorry, but if a story is so well concealed as PoE's, you're either David Foster Wallace or you're a bad story teller--as a published writer and editor, I'd know.

PoE's passive skill system isn't engaging. The FFX analogy is only half-true: in FFX, spells and abilities are peppered throughout and change your gameplay on a fundamental level. In PoE, it's all passive number increases. The very thing that people complain about in D3 is the cornerstone of PoE, and unlike Grim Dawn, screwing up means starting over.

I like RPGs. Video games, tabletop, you name it. PoE has the most tedius skill progression system I've ever encountered. Actually, it reminds me most of D&D back when you rolled a D100 against percentages, because passive percentage increases is, by and large, *all* you get with PoE's passive skill tree.

Again, D3 has its flaws, but its skill progression system fundamentally changes the way you play and doesn't discourage you from mixing it up. This isn't me wanting to be coddled like a baby into the crib of instant success; I simply prefer D3's skill system as I find it more engaging on a session-to-session basis. In short, it's more fun.
Both games are fun, and good games in my opinion. I love loot hunt ARPG type games. I like Grim Dawn too.

That said, in the current state of the games, PoE is better, by a considerable amount. Sure, D3 has the "silky smooth combat" and better graphics (although most prefer PoE art-style). But when it comes down to it, and sorry to say this, will probably get some downvotes for it. But if you prefer D3 over PoE at this point, you are a casual.

Yeah, PoE is more "complicated".. that is, until you have spent some hours playing different builds, trying out different things, watching a bit of youtube/twitch.. and like you are doing RIGHT NOW, reading the forums (but for PoE), and the Wiki. You have to learn about the game. You can't just get powerleveled to 70, get your free set in 20 minutes, start farming T6, farm some GR, get the set you want, farm the 3 or 4 or 5 auxillary pieces you need, and then start farming paragons and ancients. D3 is *EXTREMELY* casual. If you are too scrubby to put in some time into a "complicated" (until you learn... yes I know, and I am sorry, learning is like, SO HARD, but the rewards once you do make PoE a superior game)

So thats it. If you prefer D3 over PoE, you either are unwilling to put in the time and learn, or you just can't handle the graphics for whatever reason, or maybe you legitimately prefer farming Ancients and paragon.

D3 = Casual, scrub, easy for anyone to pick up and play.
PoE= More intensive, more dedicated, more rewards. 1
03/20/2017 07:42 PMPosted by Saidosha
I only grazed the surface on my critiques of PoE, as it's something I've done more in depth in other threads in the past. Despite that, I wouldn't confuse it for an absence of disdain for choices D3 made, either.

My initial post was to solely call out that people who didn't like PoE weren't fans of RPGs. You've gone on to express that like more refined, or at least as much as devs allow, character control. That, to me, is often secondary to the storytelling expected of the RPG experience. Whether the character is completely pre-built or you piece it together, you're still stepping into a role to see the plot to its conclusion. Whether it's open world or on rails is just another sub-genre of the experience.

Now, my stance on penalties and forced rerolls is that they actually curb experimentation. And while you go on to knock D3 for the ease of respec, it's not like I can suddenly play a UE-style build with S6 gear just because I changed my skills around. There's still farming and optimization that needs to be done, the rate of which will vary depending on how one plays on the solo/MP curve. So, while I won't disagree D3 could handle overall endgame builds better (I felt like v1 primals and a modified LoN could've been a gateway), approaching things from the perspective there's only one best build and everything is trash would affect PoE, as well. Pretty much any game with multiplayer co-op deals with that, even if the difference is minimal.


well.... ill consider this the last word of the talk. and a plus one. good chat there buddy. And well said about the story bit.

This line in particular:

03/20/2017 07:42 PMPosted by Saidosha
Whether the character is completely pre-built or you piece it together, you're still stepping into a role to see the plot to its conclusion.


Is really worth pondering. I do cling to the number side of things pretty tightly sometimes and it helps to have my leash jerked to remind me that the story and the emotion itself can be a pretty huge point of admiration. even before the numbers are considered or after they have done all that they possibly can do....

Thanks!
03/20/2017 10:42 PMPosted by jeeeeohn
PoE's passive skill system isn't engaging. The FFX analogy is only half-true: in FFX, spells and abilities are peppered throughout and change your gameplay on a fundamental level. In PoE, it's all passive number increases. The very thing that people complain about in D3 is the cornerstone of PoE, and unlike Grim Dawn, screwing up means starting over.


the FFX tree comparison is noticed pretty frequently for PoE, but the reality is that the Sphere grid is almost the ultimate illusion of choice. my personal take on it is that back then it was great but these days it is more a useful stepping stone. it is like the influence of a SUPER old musician whose music does not grab me at all.

it has been visually unravelled and each character is basically traveling a straight line with very little branches. indeed subsequent versions of the game (like japanese redux type versions...) have made changes to the tree allowing you to start are various points for each character, and hopping around a bit more. this is what I have read, I have actually never played that game. I remember my friends showing me the grid, when it was released and being pretty stunned over it!!!

the thing about the PoE tree is that it is a smaller portion of the totla character than people might expect. it is as you say passive skills, but its not all passive skills when you consider the various keystones, which can alter your characters performance and function to a shocking degree. and the purpose of which is to be coupled with various legendary items, which can represent a shocking alteration when a piece is chosen. to me it feels as if your character is more like a puzzle being put together at times. so the skill tree is more a piece of the puzzle rather than the corner stone.

and grim dawn i think is even more harsh than both of them, because points you invest in certain classes are locked in that class forever. you can switch them around nicely inside. but they have to stay there. I dont mind it myself but it is a commitement thats for sure. I happened to have chosen my second skill tree like 60 levels into the game, and I wanted to have it back but its done now haha!!!
Blizzard is done making games for gamers, theyre making family games now. Everything they do they do it so the whole family can play together, your mom your dad, your sisters and brothers!
Diablo 3 has smooth combat and beautiful artwork, if you're a fan of the gritty worn look then Grim Dawn is a much better choice than PoE imo.

I play both PoE and Diablo 3 depending on my mood but lately i am turning over to D3, you find your own loot where in PoE you are more likely to trade yourself to everything, it's all about leveling new characters and try new builds rather than finding and keeping the items.

Some like it that way i guess, i'm not one of them.
So playing PoE earlier and i got a Headhunter from Cadiro, when i saw it i panicked, heart started raising. This is something that D3 doesnt have and that it needs! Those OMG moments is what makes games special.

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