[2.5.0] (S10) MH Hydra Mechanics + Builds

Wizard
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03/22/2017 06:14 PMPosted by Cratic
Likely if you are in a group speed setup and you are the Single target DPS, if you want to deal more MH damage with the lightning beam, you'll have to withold casting your hydra (trash clearing). If you want to deal single target MH hydra damage instead, cast hydra (for RG and maybe elites that are at low density).

I am having a difficult time trying to figure out the criteria for deciding when to go for Hydras or stay with just the Archon beam.
We did extensive testing last night and my (inconclusive) findings are the following:

- Bosses with 0 adds (e.g. Sand Shaper, Blighter): only Hydras. Seems to be working fine, I'm aiming my Archon beam away from the guardian and the Hydras do their thing.

- Bosses with loads of adds (e.g. Saxtris, Hamelin): only Archon beam; seems consistent just like the standard COE Light build.

- Bosses with few adds or bosses that don't spawn adds until a certain point (e.g. Stonesinger, Ember): ???
What's the correct approach with those ones? First one we got last night was the Crusader king who doesn't spawn any adds until his life is below 75% (or somewhere along these lines). On the first Archon cycle I casted the hydras and they took 1/3 of his life almost instantly. Then he spawned ~3 archers and when for the next 2 cycles the Hydras did absolutely 0 damage to him, even though they appeared to be attacking him and not the archers.
Same with Stonesinger: even with only one of his cannons out, the Hydras were completely ineffective against him.
Any advice on that part of the gameplay, or hints on what I may be doing wrong here?
03/24/2017 02:50 AMPosted by Chosen
03/22/2017 06:14 PMPosted by Cratic
Likely if you are in a group speed setup and you are the Single target DPS, if you want to deal more MH damage with the lightning beam, you'll have to withold casting your hydra (trash clearing). If you want to deal single target MH hydra damage instead, cast hydra (for RG and maybe elites that are at low density).

I am having a difficult time trying to figure out the criteria for deciding when to go for Hydras or stay with just the Archon beam.
We did extensive testing last night and my (inconclusive) findings are the following:

- Bosses with 0 adds (e.g. Sand Shaper, Blighter): only Hydras. Seems to be working fine, I'm aiming my Archon beam away from the guardian and the Hydras do their thing.

- Bosses with loads of adds (e.g. Saxtris, Hamelin): only Archon beam; seems consistent just like the standard COE Light build.

- Bosses with few adds or bosses that don't spawn adds until a certain point (e.g. Stonesinger, Ember): ???
What's the correct approach with those ones? First one we got last night was the Crusader king who doesn't spawn any adds until his life is below 75% (or somewhere along these lines). On the first Archon cycle I casted the hydras and they took 1/3 of his life almost instantly. Then he spawned ~3 archers and when for the next 2 cycles the Hydras did absolutely 0 damage to him, even though they appeared to be attacking him and not the archers.
Same with Stonesinger: even with only one of his cannons out, the Hydras were completely ineffective against him.
Any advice on that part of the gameplay, or hints on what I may be doing wrong here?


In a perfect world if you get a boss with summons you have to coordinate with your group to either
1) move the boss away from the monsters either by moving a screen away (if boss is a teleporter)
2) pull the monsters away with the barb pull and position the hydras in a way where the boss's summons won't soak up any damage, this means your monk also has to stop using cyclone strike for a bit so they don't get immune

Also, you don't need to aim your beam away from the RG, you'll lose out on stricken stacks if you do that, hydra take away your damage, not the other way around
03/24/2017 02:43 AMPosted by SuperFrog
A question about non-archon builds : Does the "[2.5.0] Tal6 Hydra MH solo (GR90+)" is now better than the "[2.4.3] (GR94+) Tal AT:SD Manald Heal + Aquila + Deathwish" build ?

They are at about the same power level it feels. I'll give the slight edge to the AT:SD / Deathwish Tal build because it's a lot easier to use and more tanky.

FB hydra is a more comparable to the AT:SD / Deathwish Tal build since they are both tanky. Depending on your playstyle though, you may still prefer the Deathwish simply because it's Tal, and you don't necessarily have to skip trash. TBH though at the upper tiers I was generally elite hunting anyway with this build. I think these two builds are pretty close, maybe 1 GR difference now favoring AT:SD / Deathwish.

Pick whichever you prefer more.
Ok thx Cratic ...
I did a GR88 this week (after 2.5 patch) with AT:SD / Deathwish (I realy like this build, I tried with Hydra and I fell realy weak.
I also try Arhon+hydra build but I feel realy realy weak in solo. With 2 support, it's realy power full, but solo, I just can't finished a rift in 80+. I OS elite and I die, I die, I die again, I OS elite, I die ... and I stop.
Hi 2 all.
Can u discuss this build ?
http://www.d3planner.com/958376971

In planner enable Slow Time and see Toughness ^_^

Im soloing right now with Pain Enhancer instead of Gogok. So dps is lower.
Teleport in, slow time, channel both skills. And i can see damned ranged attacks.
I dont know how to get 4 Tal stacks and dont lose defense or dps.
Hey, question for you more experienced Wizzy's out there. I find last season's MH Lightning build more effective than this Hydra variation, am I the only one?
I'm having fun with your non archon tal 6 Hydra )
I'd just like to confirm something with you guys. I plan on lightning hydra wizard, or a WD in S10 as I just recently got back into the game and my monk is boring for me.

Lightning Hydra is still viable, but the base of it is

A) if doing AoE damage, don't place hydras

B) If doing single target, place hydras and dont channel archon beam?

A friend and I play as two, he normally plays a gen monk, so I'm looking to either play firebats or hydra, and haven't really decided yet.

We're going to try to push as far as possible next season, with a goal being somewhere in the low 90s.
T

03/25/2017 09:43 PMPosted by upsetsfriend
I'd just like to confirm something with you guys. I plan on lightning hydra wizard, or a WD in S10 as I just recently got back into the game and my monk is boring for me.

Lightning Hydra is still viable, but the base of it is

A) if doing AoE damage, don't place hydras

B) If doing single target, place hydras and dont channel archon beam?

A friend and I play as two, he normally plays a gen monk, so I'm looking to either play firebats or hydra, and haven't really decided yet.

We're going to try to push as far as possible next season, with a goal being somewhere in the low 90s.


firebats and hydra both cover different aspects of GRs. So it's all up to wether you want to be the boss main DPS or the whites and yellows main DPS.
03/25/2017 11:59 PMPosted by Somehow
T

03/25/2017 09:43 PMPosted by upsetsfriend
I'd just like to confirm something with you guys. I plan on lightning hydra wizard, or a WD in S10 as I just recently got back into the game and my monk is boring for me.

Lightning Hydra is still viable, but the base of it is

A) if doing AoE damage, don't place hydras

B) If doing single target, place hydras and dont channel archon beam?

A friend and I play as two, he normally plays a gen monk, so I'm looking to either play firebats or hydra, and haven't really decided yet.

We're going to try to push as far as possible next season, with a goal being somewhere in the low 90s.


firebats and hydra both cover different aspects of GRs. So it's all up to wether you want to be the boss main DPS or the whites and yellows main DPS.


I figured since they clear into the 100s solo, I'd just pick the one that was the most fun. I understand they both cover different aspects, I'd imagine either one is more than okay enough to play with my monk friend. He plans to play Innas Gen this season. While I think I'm pretty set on wizard, I just wanted to clear up some of the ways to use the character in certain situations.
03/25/2017 04:49 PMPosted by Crusader
Hey, question for you more experienced Wizzy's out there. I find last season's MH Lightning build more effective than this Hydra variation, am I the only one?


none of the top 10 clears next season will use hydra unless they fix/change something about the way the interaction works, calling it now. old build much more consistent and powerful
Thanks for the indepth explanation. I am still levelling/farming gear and I hit a road block on a GR 73 with the lightening archon build. I immediately went up to GR 78 when I switched to the hydra build. Maybe it's just my inexperience but it seems to do more damage. Those hydras are eating up elite heal pools on their own and really help melt rift guardians.

Again, might be my inexperience but I am surprised to see people saying the lightening archon build is stronger. When not in archon, you can drop two hydras and they clean up trash quickly while doing a number on elites.
So if im correct in a Dense group with elite you dont place hydra, so you miss The 4element of The bonus am i correct? Thnx
When you dont know that the Hydra mechanic interruped MH Proccs.. all Hydra builds are Weaker.. because Hydra bump your dmg down..

Only the RG will melt with Hydra...

So i think you need to clear the Rift with Archon / non - Archon Versions and then kill the RG with Hydra in 0 sec..
03/27/2017 01:50 AMPosted by FAHRRAD
When you dont know that the Hydra mechanic interruped MH Proccs.. all Hydra builds are Weaker.. because Hydra bump your dmg down..

Only the RG will melt with Hydra...

So i think you need to clear the Rift with Archon / non - Archon Versions and then kill the RG with Hydra in 0 sec..


I think the key is to not try and overlap archon with hydras. Do you really think it's weaker? Where it really helped me was that short time out of archon. Drop two hydras and run to safety to channel ray of frost and reset archon. I hadn't bothered to try and make hydras overlap with archon after reading about the bug. They do a great job distracting and killing while ray of frost resets archon fast.

I really like this build but I found myself dropping a lot of hydras where there was nothing to kill simply for the tal set bonus stack. This would be a deadly build if you could drop two hydras in a mob and pop archon.
03/27/2017 05:21 AMPosted by KillerElite
03/27/2017 01:50 AMPosted by FAHRRAD
When you dont know that the Hydra mechanic interruped MH Proccs.. all Hydra builds are Weaker.. because Hydra bump your dmg down..

Only the RG will melt with Hydra...

So i think you need to clear the Rift with Archon / non - Archon Versions and then kill the RG with Hydra in 0 sec..


I think the key is to not try and overlap archon with hydras. Do you really think it's weaker? Where it really helped me was that short time out of archon. Drop two hydras and run to safety to channel ray of frost and reset archon. I hadn't bothered to try and make hydras overlap with archon after reading about the bug. They do a great job distracting and killing while ray of frost resets archon fast.

I really like this build but I found myself dropping a lot of hydras where there was nothing to kill simply for the tal set bonus stack. This would be a deadly build if you could drop two hydras in a mob and pop archon.


When you play like this its obvious better.. but, the most guys cast two Hydra befor they go into Archon because they dont know about the bug.. and then your Hydra steal your good Archon dmg, because you never procc MH with Archon, and you only get Archon proccs when your archon is lost the double stacks from Swami..

and hydra against many enemys is weaker then archon so.. all guys that dont know that bug will lose alot of dmg..
03/26/2017 11:16 AMPosted by xTonyJ
03/25/2017 04:49 PMPosted by Crusader
Hey, question for you more experienced Wizzy's out there. I find last season's MH Lightning build more effective than this Hydra variation, am I the only one?

none of the top 10 clears next season will use hydra unless they fix/change something about the way the interaction works, calling it now. old build much more consistent and powerful

Yes, much more mobile too for a solo build. Hydra takes a long time to cast and adds an extra timer / mechanic to snapshot and keep track of by itself.
Sorry for lame question and sorry if it was discussed. Just a quick question - does archon stacks directly affect MH damage? Because as far as I see in sources it not correlate. Am I wrong? What the point to have archon in that case? It will be easier and safer to play without it.
03/28/2017 08:30 AMPosted by AshySamurai
does archon stacks directly affect MH damage?


Archon stacks = global damage.

In the case of non-hydra Manald procs, the damage per proc scales linearly with stack count (well, nearly so, it's 1 + stacks*0.06).

In the case of hydras, the damage per proc actually scales both with the global damage from stacks as above, but ALSO with the increased IAS from stacks (snapshot on hydra cast).
Is there any proc chance difference between 1 hydra and 2 hydra?
Do each hydra sort of interrupt each other on MH procs? just curious.

When I do T13 Bosses I don't see significant difference. Sometime a good consecutive proc from 1 hydra can oneshot a boss. Sometime bad proc chance from 2 hydra takes more time than 1 hydra.

Does anybody know?

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