[2.5.0] (S10) MH Hydra Mechanics + Builds

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03/28/2017 11:51 AMPosted by jinyonglee
Is there any proc chance difference between 1 hydra and 2 hydra?
Do each hydra sort of interrupt each other on MH procs? just curious.


usual spells open up a time window in which each hit procs MH. Hydra works differently. Instead of opening a window it'll just proc one hit that does a lot more damage. I'm guessing that it does as much damage as any other spell would have done during the MH time window, but in one hit (need confirmation though).

Hydras won't interrupt each other because you can only interrupt a channeled time window, not a single hit. Think of MH time window as a channeled buff that gives on-hit damage during either 1.5s (for speed coeff = 1 spells) or 1.125s (for speed coeff > 1 spells) and hydra procing MH interrupts that channel. Hydra's MH procs do not start this channel but instead will deal its damage in a single huge blow.
So if im correct in a Dense group with elite you dont place hydra, so you miss The 4element of The bonus am i correct? Thnx


Im also wondering if in high density you'll play with only 3effect. Does someone knows what is the best ? =)
03/28/2017 04:46 PMPosted by NeepTune
So if im correct in a Dense group with elite you dont place hydra, so you miss The 4element of The bonus am i correct? Thnx

Im also wondering if in high density you'll play with only 3effect. Does someone knows what is the best ? =)

Assuming a build with a sig or spender as cold and archon as lightning, and also assuming you've cast everything required for each element before going into archon:

You'll have 4 Tal6 stacks upon going into archon even if you don't cast hydra.

Hydra is redundant lightning and therefore it's cast isn't required for Tal6 with that sort of setup.
03/28/2017 02:20 PMPosted by Somehow
03/28/2017 11:51 AMPosted by jinyonglee
Is there any proc chance difference between 1 hydra and 2 hydra?
Do each hydra sort of interrupt each other on MH procs? just curious.

usual spells open up a time window in which each hit procs MH. Hydra works differently. Instead of opening a window it'll just proc one hit that does a lot more damage. I'm guessing that it does as much damage as any other spell would have done during the MH time window, but in one hit (need confirmation though).

Yes, Hydra acts like speed co = 1 and has only one MH proc per Paralysis. Beam has speed co = 3 and only procs within a 1.125s window after paralysis procs. MH procs from the beam will match the tick rate of your Disintegration wave spell.

1 Hydra damage MH proc can't do quite as much as 10 ticks of a channeled beam can do, but it can deal approximately 50% to 80% of that amount (depends on your attack speed when casting hydra, and the tick rate you are at for your beam). This is still pretty large considering you can on occasion miss beam procs by not hitting the target within the window.

10 procs from DW is the norm for a 1.125s window btw.

To answer your other question, jinyonglee - Hydra doesn't interrupt itself, what we've been seeing from testing is that it can only interrupt or prevent your other spells from proccing MH. More Hydra heads will get you more Hydra MH procs.
03/28/2017 04:46 PMPosted by NeepTune
So if im correct in a Dense group with elite you dont place hydra, so you miss The 4element of The bonus am i correct? Thnx


Im also wondering if in high density you'll play with only 3effect. Does someone knows what is the best ? =)

if you have +x% lightning on your gear and the combustion rune for archon, archon will trigger two tal stacks.

1 stack from glacial spike or frost beam and the other from teleport calamity. last two stacsk from archon.
i think this shouldn't work but it does
I'm a little confused about the group variant skill slot decisions.

Why are you using lightning % on your gear at all? I'm just curious, because this build's only job is to kill the RG. The WD is actually going to get annoyed when you cut down his density before he's ready. Your lightning Hydra is going to do practically all of your damage on RG, and you're interfering with its (more powerful) MH procs during lightning cycle if you roll lightning on your gear. Why not roll cold damage on the beam so that you don't have to slot a cold skill and can safely use your attacks during archon to stack stricken while your Hydra does all of the damage? Not sure if that was answered in either of their guides.
Hi all and thanks for this amazing info. A quick question, since I haven't found a comprehensive explanation after a brief search: how much attack speed in total does one need for hydra 6 tal/4 vyr build. Getting 62% cd without gogok is quite easy but in a test build with unoptimized gear I only had 7% from tal armor. How many more pieces do I need? Weapon I guess. I really don't want to use as bracers since I feel very squishy with them. Thank you for any input
@StoleOwnCar That sounds interesting. I'll try to switch Blackwhole for Slow Time Strech Time. Just need a SS with attack speed on it.

I heard you can overlap those bubbles, to have 2x times the 10% IAS effect (bubble from non Archon and in Archon form). With this, you can reach the next Hydra breakpoint at the RG (from 2.5 to 3.33 APS).

To get this, I would roll Arcan element on bracers, because I like to play with Glacial Spike to stack Gogok and shields fast and without AP consumption.

While the rift you can support the WD with higher IAS overall.
03/30/2017 12:14 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
I'm a little confused about the group variant skill slot decisions.

Why are you using lightning % on your gear at all? I'm just curious, because this build's only job is to kill the RG. The WD is actually going to get annoyed when you cut down his density before he's ready. Your lightning Hydra is going to do practically all of your damage on RG, and you're interfering with its (more powerful) MH procs during lightning cycle if you roll lightning on your gear. Why not roll cold damage on the beam so that you don't have to slot a cold skill and can safely use your attacks during archon to stack stricken while your Hydra does all of the damage? Not sure if that was answered in either of their guides.


so that your archon beam does lightning damage and proc's manald heal from paralysis. It's the entire crux of the build...
03/30/2017 02:08 AMPosted by Proxy

so that your archon beam does lightning damage and proc's manald heal from paralysis. It's the entire crux of the build...


Well, that's not true since Patch 2.5. If you set Hydras, your Archon Beam does not procc MH. That's why we think about other solutions because we mainly have one job: kill the RG and maybe some standalone Elites. Of course, talking about Grifts 100+.
03/30/2017 02:08 AMPosted by Proxy
so that your archon beam does lightning damage and proc's manald heal from paralysis. It's the entire crux of the build...


... Please read the very first post in the topic you are currently posting in. >_>
03/30/2017 12:14 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Why are you using lightning % on your gear at all? I'm just curious, because this build's only job is to kill the RG.

Great point.

For the ranged speed variant, I think being able to help out in the rift with your beam will be more beneficial - since you'd still be dealing noticeable damage in the rift, you'd want lightning on your bracer. You'd be able to choose between beam for trash or hydras for elite/RG.

But cold is a very appealing option in pushing setups for the reason mentioned, you really aren't doing the work to clear the rift all that much any longer. Better to let your hydras do what damage they can, help the barb round up mobs, and / or focus on surviving.

You can see this in my melee (zodiac) d3planner theorycraft:
  • http://www.d3planner.com/274047014

The second one down is cold variant. I'm really interested to try this one out now. =)

03/30/2017 12:14 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Your lightning Hydra is going to do practically all of your damage on RG, and you're interfering with its (more powerful) MH procs during lightning cycle if you roll lightning on your gear.

Based on my testing, what I saw was the beam procced only on rare occasion when using both hydra and archon DW as lightning. Additionally, those proc windows were interrupted midway by any hydra procs that happened to occur within that DW proc window. It's not hard proof, but it sure seems like the hydra is interrupting / taking precedence over the beam and not the other way around in any way.

Beam proc'd as low as 1.1s after a hydra proc. I also noted large chunks of time where hydra would not proc (RNG) of up to 7s. This was rare, but did happen. If that were to occur, I'd assume your beam would be allowed to proc within these larger gaps of time, and you'd be able to make up some small amount of damage from having not proc'd MH with Hydra.

Spreadsheet & video on single target combination DW + hydra analysis here:
  • https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZhahhy1IigNk10R8Tktj5x6VFtYH_gL8Y8v2zn0NG4/edit?usp=sharing
  • https://youtu.be/mV82QmtQar4?list=PLsBZISJpoL0KocceLYhS4KU2a0hVSa8JU

One problem with hydra being so random on when it procs MH - you can't really tell if beam interrupts it, or if there was just larger random gap on Hydra procs. The fact that hydra clearly interrupts the beam though suggests reverse.

I guess what I'm saying is, from the limited data gathered it appears as though you wouldn't be gimping your hydra MH proc damage by using both Hydra and the DW (archon beam) as lightning.
The thing is though running the cold beam allows you to free up a valuable skill slot, though (allowing you to painlessly run Slow Time, which will boost both your damage and the witch doctor's). Plus the problem is that hydra procs are discrete. Beam procs are continuous. You can easily tell when your hydra caused the beam to stop proccing because it's continuous. It just mysteriously stops when the hydra procs. On the other hand, the beam interfering with the hydra is basically like trying to figure out where an impulse (which is a singular moment in time) did not happen. Since you never observed it starting to happen in the first place, you don't necessarily know that it was or was not supposed to happen.
interesting discussion with beam on Archon! I have seen people on stream port away and beam in the other way of the RG, is the reason for this that they dont want to proc the MH with the beam or? If cratic is correct, then we might aswell just hit the GR with the beam?
I tried it yesterday without lightning as highest element (archon beam as cold). So I could stack attack speed to the next higher Hydra BP. With two bubbles overlapped and no adds, man this is brutal dmg output at RG. :D
Cold archon will also slow mobs. Giving a 100% uptime on bane of the trapped too. Not sure if there is room for trapped in the build but it's food for thought. I wonder if it's worth cold archon with obsidian and bane of the trapped instead of Gogok and CoE? A high enough bane of the trapped is similar damage anyway. You loose IaS from Gogok though but you're also having a much higher archon uptime. Still. Food for thought
03/30/2017 11:49 PMPosted by Accelerate
interesting discussion with beam on Archon! I have seen people on stream port away and beam in the other way of the RG, is the reason for this that they dont want to proc the MH with the beam or? If cratic is correct, then we might aswell just hit the GR with the beam?

That behavior is not optimal - you wouldn't be stacking stricken in that scenario. Assuming you're running stricken you'll want to hit the RG as much as possible with your own attacks.
03/31/2017 12:39 AMPosted by r2d2
I tried it yesterday without lightning as highest element (archon beam as cold). So I could stack attack speed to the next higher Hydra BP. With two bubbles overlapped and no adds, man this is brutal dmg output at RG. :D

Yep, slow time on skill bar (stretch time) will be mandatory I'm thinking for better stricken stacking and meeting higher hydra AS breakpoints.
03/31/2017 01:00 AMPosted by Christos
I wonder if it's worth cold archon with obsidian and bane of the trapped instead of Gogok and CoE? A high enough bane of the trapped is similar damage anyway.

Hmm, going off my spreadsheet, for 1.4 AS ranged zodiac setup it's about an 7.4% hydra damage loss without gogok. You'd be out of archon longer though (~59% CDR down from ~65%), that'll take a few seconds longer to reset, which means slightly lower uptime on double stack swami. I think as long as it's still least 14s though, you'd be OK since hydra is 15s duration.

You'd be required to roll your manald with AS otherwise you miss your hydra AS BP.

You'd be at the same stricken BP in double stack, 3.75 stricken stacks / s. Note: Melee attacks in double stack at 4.07 AS is ~4.28 stricken stacks / s, melee attack on single stack swami at 3.17 AS is only 3.33 sticken stacks / s.

Assuming you're still in the double bubble, you meet the hydra AS BP 3.33, which is good. But again, you'd have to be inside both bubbles, otherwise your hydras drop to 2.5 instead.

My initial thoughts are that assuming you have a highish level Trapped gem, Trapped would be better than Gogok for a ranged pushing setup that uses cold archon with Zodiac, SS, & Starfire. Gems as: Trapped / Zei / Stricken as you mention.

Looks good on paper, Christos. I'll have to chart this out. =)

The real beauty of such a setup would be that it's only a bracer and legendary gem swap difference from your group speed build. CoE on the other hand forces strict CDR gearing. A few more item swaps possibly would be required for CoE, and going with CoE might force you to a lower hydra AS BP (2.5 down from 3.33). Granted, zodiac setup above would have pretty harsh AS requirement, but IMO it seems just a tad more flexible in gearing.

EDIT: here's the d3planner for this test build with ranged cold archon + Trapped:
  • http://www.d3planner.com/636195453
I copy/paste this what i wrote on diablofans...

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Posted 7 hours ago
I use now 7% IAS on weapon, both rings, lacunis bracers, amulet and chest + 10% Paragon + 15% gogok + belt gives only 48% (*2 with double stacks on boss) + double slowtime bubble 10%+10%, those gives me something like 4,19 AS, so after i get belt with 50 stacks i can get 4,04 without even that second slowtime bubble... Im using zodiac build with ~58,5% CDR (weapon lacks CDR) but still i have completed easily GR 102 4p, second try with only 1600+ paragons (my gear is still insane).

So my opinion is to get that highest BP on hydras and it is much better than CHC/CHD on those two rings=33% more PET IAS=more procs=much more damage.

After i get that belt with 50 legendary affix i can change bracers/amulet OR doesnt need that second ST bubble.

Also it is noticeable that D3planner doesnt understand that second slowtime bubble 10% IAS, you need to but there something else that gives you that 10%.

EDIT: I just calculated it again, with my 48 stacks belt it will give me 4,13 AS with two stacks and i can even now change lacunis to another bracers and still get 4,03 AS.

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