Rolf post of the day

Barbarian
Link to Barb build thread in reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3Barbarians/comments/60v5n9/25_barbarian_build_list/

My favourite bit is at the bottom of the GR build list.....

All of those can clear GR90+ at Paragon 800
For those interested, only 127 barbs have cleared 90 or more on the U.S NS leaderboard and of those, the average paragon level is 2.2k.

The two exceptions are recent clears using MOTE SS/Rumble (paragons 1195&1057). These guys do have full ancients, decent augments and leg gems over 90. But in comparison to the other builds/paragons for clears above 90, this is quite impressive.

The next closest are pre 2.5 builds whose paragons start at roughly 1500 and quickly shoot up to 2k plus, putting the average paragon level quite high.

So, using this in conjunction with a stack of other data Ive already collected I would rank the top barb builds as MOTE fire EQ/SS. Everything else is second to that (unless I see more leaderboard climbs with low paragons).

But yeah, whoever is responsible for spouting this kind of crap on Reddit/Icyveins etc, you really need to put together a build with non ancients, no augmentation, drop your paragons to exactly 800 and leg gems to 80ish and test the friggen things. Or at least check the leaderboards to validate your claims. Then state what the build can possibly do. From what Im seeing, on average its GR 75 plus at paragon 800 for almost all builds and thats being very very generous. MOTE SS/EQ with rumble is a little higher.

Cheers
CC123
Dude I just cleared GR500 with Quakor
The bacon is too strong
04/09/2017 11:01 PMPosted by CC123
GR 75 plus at paragon 800 for almost all builds and thats being very very generous.


I did GR 75 in 10~ minutes, with less than 700 Paragon 2 days ago, with WW.
You don't need 2.2k Paragon to clear 90 with WW. Did 90 last season in HC, with ~P1150...

Pretty sure I could have done it with P1000 and I believe Serro could have gotten 90 last season around P1000 if he had not dc'd and lost his barb.

I have no idea if EQ is better or not just pointing out you don't need that high of paragon to clear 90 on WW.
I have cleared a 91 so far with my barb with under 1100 paragon and no grouping to bloat my gem or augment level as the Fire eq+ slam build. It definitely is solid
04/10/2017 12:06 PMPosted by Marzbarz
I have cleared a 91 so far with my barb with under 1100 paragon and no grouping to bloat my gem or augment level as the Fire eq+ slam build. It definitely is solid


But you are outstanding player man, dunno, prolly hours on HC side made you so much better in pushing on SC side of the universe. And yes, EQ Slam is really solid.

04/10/2017 10:04 AMPosted by Shark
You don't need 2.2k Paragon to clear 90 with WW. Did 90 last season in HC, with ~P1150...

Pretty sure I could have done it with P1000 and I believe Serro could have gotten 90 last season around P1000 if he had not dc'd and lost his barb.

I have no idea if EQ is better or not just pointing out you don't need that high of paragon to clear 90 on WW.


Yeah, agreed here as well. I did 90 on EQ in S8 with just tad less than 1300 para, yes fishing maps were better but it was before rumble change that gave EQ about 3-4 levels and my gear was a mess (STR/crit/crit rings, 130% gold find in secondaries). On seasons there are already 80+ clears on both WW and EQ and all folks are 700-900 para, almost no augs (few guys have some seldom 65/75 augs on 3-4 pieces). Felix did 90 on IK WW with about 1300 para, Serro had 92 with IB WW at 1300 para, bottom line is that it is possible, but of course easier for Barb mains.

But that post on Reddit is wrong, on both, power classification and 90+ at 800 para statement.
Hi CC123,

I'd like to add some comments about the builds list.

1. The Power Potential of Fire EQ/SS:

Dreammoon P1359 Strength 16000 AD:110(He doesn't have a good weapon).
GR95, Almost Break GR 96. If he has a 10ED 24AD weapon, I believe he can do GR 97 with P1359.

Therefore, GR100 with 20K strength? Highly possible.

2. 2.5 Babarian's Best Farming Build.

In-Geom Frozen Leap-Quake.

JustinFan P1000, Strength 11000, Gem 85 (Zei's BotT and BotP) AD:90.

T13 Farming: 2:10s - 3:30s. (If I am lucky enough, I believe for some map I can do 1:XX)

DB: 550+/h

Furthermore, we barbs can use this build do 7-8 bounties with (DH, Wiz, etc). Just Leave the Boss to DH and Wiz.

I post my build here:
http://bbs.d.163.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=173401075&extra=page%3D1
04/10/2017 12:22 AMPosted by Baconinja
Dude I just cleared GR500 with Quakor


Lol

Id expect that to be a lot higher considering its you bacon.

04/10/2017 09:16 AMPosted by Drak
04/09/2017 11:01 PMPosted by CC123
GR 75 plus at paragon 800 for almost all builds and thats being very very generous.


I did GR 75 in 10~ minutes, with less than 700 Paragon 2 days ago, with WW.


Grats, that puts you at the top end of where I stated.

04/10/2017 10:04 AMPosted by Shark
You don't need 2.2k Paragon to clear 90 with WW. Did 90 last season in HC, with ~P1150...

Pretty sure I could have done it with P1000 and I believe Serro could have gotten 90 last season around P1000 if he had not dc'd and lost his barb.

I have no idea if EQ is better or not just pointing out you don't need that high of paragon to clear 90 on WW.


As I mention in my second post, the average paragon of players that have cleared GR 90 plus is 2.2k. I then point out lower paragons that are an exception to this and then go on to state why the average is so high.

To the main point at hand, there is still not one 90 plus clear that I have seen for any build that is with a character that has 800 or less paragons, or anything close with the gear you would expect to have at that paragon level (ie, not all ancients and little augmentation).

04/10/2017 12:06 PMPosted by Marzbarz
I have cleared a 91 so far with my barb with under 1100 paragon and no grouping to bloat my gem or augment level as the Fire eq+ slam build. It definitely is solid


Yup, your clear is the 1057 paragon that I mention in my earlier post. You are wearing all ancients and every item is augmented with STR ranging from level 66 (330) to 82 (410) and leg gems at 81, 91 & 91. As I stated in my earlier post, you are one of two exceptions which I believe demonstrates just how strong the new EQ/GOG Slam quake is, not to mention its quite an achievement showing how good a player you are so well done again.

However, paragon 1057, full ancients, augmentation on every piece and 91 Stricken & BOT is still quite a gap from a paragon 800 which Reddit states is the paragon level you can attain a 90 clear with every Barb build. The gear alone should be semi ancient next to no augmentation and lower ranged leg gems.

04/10/2017 02:42 PMPosted by JustinFan
Hi CC123,

I'd like to add some comments about the builds list.

1. The Power Potential of Fire EQ/SS:

Dreammoon P1359 Strength 16000 AD:110(He doesn't have a good weapon).
GR95, Almost Break GR 96. If he has a 10ED 24AD weapon, I believe he can do GR 97 with P1359.

Therefore, GR100 with 20K strength? Highly possible.

2. 2.5 Babarian's Best Farming Build.

In-Geom Frozen Leap-Quake.

JustinFan P1000, Strength 11000, Gem 85 (Zei's BotT and BotP) AD:90.

T13 Farming: 2:10s - 3:30s. (If I am lucky enough, I believe for some map I can do 1:XX)

DB: 550+/h

Furthermore, we barbs can use this build do 7-8 bounties with (DH, Wiz, etc). Just Leave the Boss to DH and Wiz.

I post my build here:
http://bbs.d.163.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=173401075&extra=page%3D1


Thanks for the post, however Im not exactly sure what your point is in relation to this thread. GL anyhow on the push.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All

The point of this post is to highlight something which the data firmly supports. All of our builds are substantially weaker than sources such as Reddit and Icyveins are claiming.

You cannot clear a 90 with 800 paragons and relative gear with any barb build. Claims like this (and this is my main point) are not helping us to promote buffs to the class.

On one hand we have several threads requesting buffs to the class, yet on the other (and some of these are made by the same people) we have people stating that this build can achieve 90,95 or 100 GR plus clears.

My message is simple, if you are going to post something about a push or build, please please please be realistic about that claim/post. If it has done a 90 clear at paragon 800 then post it, if it hasnt and you are stating it is possible, you are doing the class a disfavour and making it harder for us to achieve those much needed buffs.

Currently on webistes like Icyveins they list almost all of our top builds as being as powerful as Wizard and DH top builds, or have a small GR clear difference. We all know this bullsh&t so its up to you to show that yes, it may be possible to pass a 90 plus Grift, but not before you achieve XXX str via ancients/augmentation etc, 100 plus Grift fishing attempts, X amount of paragons and so on.

Take a look at Free's WW guide and go to the part about paragons and Grifts. This is a good realistic example of how mainstat (paragons+augmentation) will affect your Grift clear and in turn, what you should expect to be able to achieve. You will note that Free does not claim that WW can clear 90 plus with 800 paragons. If anybody would know this, then its Free.

We should be bench marking our builds at a more realistic level just as Free does in his guide. If it has taken you a lot longer to achieve that Grift clear by farming better gear, augmentation, fishing grifts and gaining paragons in order to achieve those higher clears, then please communicate that. If you dont thats how we end up with the devs thinking the class is in better shape than it really is.

Cheers
CC123
04/10/2017 02:42 PMPosted by JustinFan
Hi CC123,

I'd like to add some comments about the builds list.

1. The Power Potential of Fire EQ/SS:

Dreammoon P1359 Strength 16000 AD:110(He doesn't have a good weapon).
GR95, Almost Break GR 96. If he has a 10ED 24AD weapon, I believe he can do GR 97 with P1359.

Therefore, GR100 with 20K strength? Highly possible.

2. 2.5 Babarian's Best Farming Build.

In-Geom Frozen Leap-Quake.

JustinFan P1000, Strength 11000, Gem 85 (Zei's BotT and BotP) AD:90.

T13 Farming: 2:10s - 3:30s. (If I am lucky enough, I believe for some map I can do 1:XX)

DB: 550+/h

Furthermore, we barbs can use this build do 7-8 bounties with (DH, Wiz, etc). Just Leave the Boss to DH and Wiz.

I post my build here:
http://bbs.d.163.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=173401075&extra=page%3D1


I find grabbing things with LQ is a pain in the butt. Are you just super good at grabbing without breaking flow, do you full clear then loot after?

This is why I consistently find speed farm + LQ to be contradictory. I always have to break the flow to grab things. Very curious how you guys are doing it.

Note: 777 para, in case it's a paragon thing. Highest GR clear is 69.
04/10/2017 12:06 PMPosted by Marzbarz
I have cleared a 91 so far with my barb with under 1100 paragon and no grouping to bloat my gem or augment level as the Fire eq+ slam build. It definitely is solid


Cuz U're the Man Brother :) btw for farming t13 I would suggest to try dropping Girdle for Dread Iron. When insinde in-geom cdr-window, this avalanche spam via TS deals quite good dps :) at least it was what I felt like ^^

Peace
04/09/2017 11:01 PMPosted by CC123
For those interested, only 127 barbs have cleared 90 or more on the U.S NS leaderboard and of those, the average paragon level is 2.2k.

The two exceptions are recent clears using MOTE SS/Rumble (paragons 1195&1057). These guys do have full ancients, decent augments and leg gems over 90. But in comparison to the other builds/paragons for clears above 90, this is quite impressive.

The next closest are pre 2.5 builds whose paragons start at roughly 1500 and quickly shoot up to 2k plus, putting the average paragon level quite high.

So, using this in conjunction with a stack of other data Ive already collected I would rank the top barb builds as MOTE fire EQ/SS. Everything else is second to that (unless I see more leaderboard climbs with low paragons).


I was not referring to the whatever the reddit post said or those other post, most likely rubbish.

I'm taking exception to what you have stated above. Like I said I have no idea which one is better but the analysis you provide does not support your claim. It does not portray an accurate assessment. Maybe the "other" data you have collected supports your position but just because a couple guys cleared 90 with low paragon does not mean that EQ is the best build. Others can and have cleared the same with WW and low paragon. I only had 82ish augments and 90 gems oh and I was P1190 with a notsogreat HF ammy. I just don't see how you can base the claim that EQ is the best with what you have stated above.

I have yet to test out EQ myself so I can't comment on how strong it is. You may very well be right that it's the best barb build but I don't believe you have provided any solid data that it is.

04/10/2017 04:22 PMPosted by CC123
We should be bench marking our builds at a more realistic level just as Free does in his guide. If it has taken you a lot longer to achieve that Grift clear by farming better gear, augmentation, fishing grifts and gaining paragons in order to achieve those higher clears, then please communicate that. If you dont thats how we end up with the devs thinking the class is in better shape than it really is.

Cheers
CC123


I get that this was the main point of the thread, I just took exception to your anaylsis and conclusion about EQ based on what you posted. Not trying to be a #!!#!**% or anything I just don't think you have provided enough data to support your claim.
Shark, just to clarify

The analysis Im referring to is of all NS 90 and above clears by adding up all paragons of those clears, then getting an average. Why do I have data of all clears above 90? Actually I have data of all 1000 barb NS clears including augmentation, gem levels etc.

So by adding up all the paragons then dividing them by the number of 90 plus clears, this is how I determine the average paragon is 2.2k. Its part of a bigger analysis which has been underway since the 2.5 PTR whereby I am obtaining proof of the Barb vs other classes power gap and exactly what that gap is. Its on hold until I finish a couple of uni assignments over the next 3 weeks (doing yet another Masters) after which, Ill be completing the analysis with Free and publishing the results.

The intent is to prove the exact power gap between all classes, of which barb is on bottom and Wizard has pulled ahead of the rest this season. But more to come when I can get back to it in a few weeks time.

Cheers
CC123
04/10/2017 05:06 PMPosted by Heimdall
04/10/2017 12:06 PMPosted by Marzbarz
I have cleared a 91 so far with my barb with under 1100 paragon and no grouping to bloat my gem or augment level as the Fire eq+ slam build. It definitely is solid


Cuz U're the Man Brother :) btw for farming t13 I would suggest to try dropping Girdle for Dread Iron. When insinde in-geom cdr-window, this avalanche spam via TS deals quite good dps :) at least it was what I felt like ^^

Peace


Thank you kindly good sir! I tried swapping back to dread iron but I feel like power of earthquakes alone cleans up trash nicely and girdle can help melt elites very quickly. But that's just my personal preference.

At least the armory can make for quick swaps to any gear combination now
Feels like a lot of people are missing the point.

While the OP at Reddit certainly had good intentions, his post obfuscates a simple truth: At 800 Paragon, with no Augments and with the same gem levels as any other class on an account, Barbs are pound for pound, tick for tick weaker than every other class.

Furthermore, we are not clearing GR 90 at 800 Paragon without a lot of very high Augments.

And while we're on the topic of Augments, let's please keep in mind what Augments mean: main stat. A player's Effective (true) Paragon level should be calculated as follows: current Paragon - 800 + (total main stat of Augments / 5).

This takes into account the division of Paragon points into other categories before 800. And if you do this and take another look at the Barb leaderboards--and then take a look at Wizard, Demon Hunter, Crusader, and Witch Doctor leaderboards--you are going to notice something very, very wrong.

Folks, one of the prime concerns I've always had is our class's baseline power potential. And while some of our builds--namely Fire EQ and Zodiac Whirlwind--can get some top tier results in the right hands, that is not the norm, doubly so for the average player. The baseline power potential--defined here as the GR potential of a build at 800 Paragon without Augments--for our entire class is abnormally low compared to other classes.

Can Zodiac Whirlwind clear 100? Absolutely. But you'd better be Paragon 3k+ with 100 Augments on everything and level 110 gems.

Will some players clear it with less Paragon, lower gems, and lower Augments?

Yes. A rare few. But while it is incredibly useful to look at the top tier clears to determine a build's ultimate power potential, the lower clears tell us a much more depressing story--one CC has already laid out in factual data.

Here's a personal anecdote. I live and breathe Barbs--especially Whirlwind. Anyone who's so much as lurked here knows that. And right now, with my very busy work schedule, I have very little time to play. I have to be efficient.

For solo pushes, I'm shooting for 92, 93 tops, because the fishing has gotten so bad in 2.5 and there are so few viable combinations of mobs and maps that the time investment and level of frustration that accompanies fishing is a major damper. And until recently, I was using a modified Zodiac Whirlwind to speed-farm T13. Mind you, this is my Paragon 1800 Barb with 11 Augments and close to 18k Strength. So, I'll get my 92 or 93, then farm up to 2500 Paragon, because I just can't sink the time to push higher.

Then I made a Lightning Wizard. Okay, we can all agree this build is OP. Broken, perhaps. But fun. And fast! And it requires skill, precision, and solid execution.

And then I made an Impale Demon Hunter.

Both of them speed-farm T13 much, much faster than my Whirlwind Barb--faster than Cold EQ, faster than R6 Charge, you name it. And recently, I've tried pushing a little with my Demon Hunter. I tried two keys at 87 and came very, very close to clearing it.

Mind you, I know next to nothing about Demon Hunter--what maps and mobs I should fish, what affixes to avoid, and so forth. Neither build has any Augments. Both builds have sub-optimal gear--missing Ancients, rolls, and so forth. The Demon Hunter is using Strength bracers, for crying out loud.

And with a few more keys, I know I can clear 87 with the Demon Hunter. With some more practice, I can clear 88--possibly 89. That puts me 5 tiers behind my projected 93 Barb clear.

5 tiers. No Augments vs 11 Augments. Almost 8k difference in main stat.

What's more, the Demon Hunter, with Augments, can also be the DPS in speed 95s.

If that doesn't paint you a crystal clear picture of everything that is wrong with Barbs, nothing will.

04/10/2017 04:22 PMPosted by CC123
We should be bench marking our builds at a more realistic level just as Free does in his guide. If it has taken you a lot longer to achieve that Grift clear by farming better gear, augmentation, fishing grifts and gaining paragons in order to achieve those higher clears, then please communicate that. If you dont thats how we end up with the devs thinking the class is in better shape than it really is.


Absolutely, brother. We need to present accurate, realistic depictions of what it's really like to play Barb. And we need to continue to draw attention to the incredible disparity between classes right now.
Agreed with the both of you; Free and CC. Even though we can get high clears the amount of effort required over all the other classes is much greater due to the power differences with or without paragons.
Marzbarz.

Would love to know what you could do at paragon 800? Any chance you could try it with a little less GG gear.

Would be great to get some comparative data of somebody with your skillset etc. Even if you could just dig into your memory and let us know how it went at that point.

Will be handy for our writeup demonstrating what a top notch player with normal gear/paragon 800 can actually do.

Cheers
CC123
04/10/2017 04:35 PMPosted by Dza76Wutang
do you full clear then loot after?


Np. Grab everything when it drops.

When you kill a group of elites, you can charge to any loot or any position you want.
This saves a lot of time.

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