Discuss Travis Day's comments on sets & build diversity

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I was reading through the thread (I lurk mostly when I wander into here) but I feel the need to comment on these points which, I feel, are tied together.

04/03/2017 04:16 PMPosted by KiWeN


1. No character progression
Your character doesn't progress or evolve at all, it just get some flashy items. Of course there's the level 1 to 70 part, but everything really revolves around that level 70 mark. It's not like you can enter a game at level 43 and optimize your build and venture on to Torment 2 or anything like that.

Paragon levels are not a character progression either, but and "account bonus".

2. Items define build
The key to advance in D3 is knowing what works based on what drops you get. A legendary item is not just an item, it's either a useless legendary, or build changer. This comes down to the amount of power that each legendary skill boosting item has, in comparison to other options. If an item drops that boosts an skill, you really need to use that skill - because it becomes so much more powerful, that you will seriously gimp yourself by not using it.

You cannot select your own build or playstyle to run, the drops will do that for you, and slowly build the template of a build that you need. This is the part I love and hate about season starts, as this is the only time where you can be a little creative, and work in those weird items that drop. But you will soon enough find something that completely obliterate that item for that slot. You can only use Shard of Hate, Thunderfury, Odyn Son, Rimeheart and all of those items for so long, before an item that boosts your skills through the roofs drops.

And so drops define your build, not player creativity.


I put in a lot of hours playing D2, and one of the things I struggled with was matching the items with my build. countless times, I got drops that would've been good on another build, but because of how the game locked your skill points, they were worthless for that character.

Seeing that D3 did away with the skill tree, I was glad. I felt that I could now adjust to what RNGeebus blessed me with, instead of having to toss so many good items because that would only be useful for a drastically different build.

Unfortunately, the drops on legs in the beginning (and the power level of them) were poop. Those build enabling/defining legendary powers were so rare, they might've been not in the game. This improved, but around the time where we could reasonably get them, set items became powerful.

I understand the reasoning behind having sets as powerful as they are. They take up 2-6 item slots, so they felt that they needed something to make up for the lack of diversity/choice of legendaries you could put into a build. The problem is that they made it so it's hands down, always better by a large margin to equip a set. If sets only increased your overall power by, let's say one or two GR using today's measuring stick, then I'd be ok with it. They don't though. Without using LoN (or even just having everything in normal items), what's the GR level between what we can reach?
04/12/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Shivera
04/10/2017 05:08 PMPosted by Frostraven
It's too late to fix this in Diablo 3 -- but hopefully, Diablo IV will be an action roleplaying game instead of action arcade:
Builds -- characters that specialize from level 1 -- with respecs that have an actual meaningful cost.
A meaningful level cost? In Diablo? Never happened before, and never will happen in the future. Even in D2, if you didn't like your tree/spec, it took all of 15 minutes to re-level a character to 60.

Did that change for D3? No. It still takes all of 15 minutes to hit max level.

The only time a "solution" like this matters is when you don't play with higher level friends that can quickly pull you up i.e. - in a solo game. The only thing your "solution" does is force everyone into grouping... even more.

Set aren't balanced. The main issue is that they occupy 1/2 of your inventory, and some sets utilize very key pieces (like rings). The other issue is that some classes get to take advantage of having 4/6 set bonuses, while others are stuck with having just 6 pc bonuses. Sets have to be more powerful than standard legendaries, otherwise they won't be used. It's a double standard and a false balancing act. Hopefully for D4, they remove the reliance on set pieces.


Sets can be more powerful than legendaries for SOME builds.
Some sets can be great, but slightly worse than a legendary setup with ultra-rare items; think Griphon's Eye in Diablo II levels rare.

Sets can offer different bonuses than legendaries, providing survivability at a slightly lower damage than a legendary setup for that set of skills.

Blizzard is dropping opportunities left and right and center, and are tripping all over them as they're stumbling two steps forward, one step back -- in the wrong direction.

I'd be laughing if I just didn't love the Diablo series so damn much.

The games play like a book, prior to Diablo 3:
Unarmed in hell? Sure. If your character is fast and agile enough to not get surrounded.
Fighting prime evils unarmored at 0 resistances in Hell? Sure. If you're skilled enough.

... Then Diablo 3 took a lazy arcade approach to difficulty:
You *must* have enough damage reduction to survive attacks that are unavoidable before you can proceed.
No skill necessary, just more gear with larger numbers.

Can't level your character to get meaningful damage or defense boosts at the face of challenge, only better gear.
And bosses no longer drop good gear.

And the story mode got gutted, so that there's no unique hand-crafted challenges anyway.

And then the endgame became rng-created dungeons with bosses that require you to kill the minions on the path to them, but with artificial difficulty of your own choosing, not improving the quality of drops, but the amount.

...

All the dropped balls...
Yellow GRs ranks. (in addition, do not remove the originals)

No legendaries or sets.
No cube powers.
No legendarie gems.
No paragom points.
they must say to us where is real problem of this lazyness ....

is it server limitations to not allow to jump like crazy to avoid dmg by your own skills ? and yes your better hardware and better internet conection/
or they just want from us to become like universal person with predictable properties ?

i like to be myself in first , thats why i hate going with mainstream thats why i want diversity /ofc effective diversity / to be not a copycat ...../today its almost impossible because its intended/
at this point in time it would be better to just get on with making Diablo 4 rather than continuing to give us pre-made builds through the use of item sets to play each season. The whole entire skills and abilities system needs to be completely revamped before talking about diversity as there is very little options to choose from
Nothing to discuss. The fact that he's "aware" of this is immaterial.
2 pieces: [Bone Armor damage is increased by 1000%.]


Guess his awareness didn't translate into any sort of action.
04/21/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Borg
2 pieces: [Bone Armor damage is increased by 1000%.]


Guess his awareness didn't translate into any sort of action.


The thing is short of rebalancing the whole game, there is no option but to do just that or the necro would get mowhere conpared to other class builds.

That kind of action would take a long time to follow through. Quickest route to get necro to par is to keep the status quo and build necro gear with current gear game balance in mind to avoid under/over powering the class.
04/12/2017 11:08 AMPosted by Frostraven
No skill necessary, just more gear with larger numbers.


They built the game with the auction house in mind. It was a money decision, - an item-based skill system, because items can be sold, skills cannot. And then what, after they found out that the AH is a bad idea and removed it? Power creep all the way, but still a f++ckload of !@#$ty, frustrating mechanics and still the only way to tweak the player experience was by pumping up numbers. There will never be much diversity in this game, as it´s always the same old skills, they just come and go as FOTM.
I switched to POE for good, but still can´t help myself and take a peek once a month. D3 is so much talk and no changes, it´s amazing that there´s still people on the forums. I´d say, if nobody is listening and the game is stuck, why bother? D3 is a good game, but it´ll stay messy and the devs won´t be able to sort that out. Primal ancients was a hint of desperation, -and there´s only so much you can do with that approach. Necro will be fun for a month, so I think I´ll pass, -and that´s saying something, I frikkin loved Necro in D2....
04/02/2017 11:11 AMPosted by KiWeN
I would support a nerf of the game to a state of more diversity and equality between classes, no doubt. Especially if we also got rid of the 20-something useless difficulty levels and GR ranks.

There's no point to x30 or x5 damage multipliers on items, and I miss having other legendary affixes being usable. Shard of Hate to name just one.


I feel the same. It would be a lot more fun. Blizzard could take some hint's from other action rpg's out there, I will not name them anymore though. Heh I have done that enough.

edit: If they made some changes, it would take a lot of time and resources though. D3 could make so many people come back and expacs or however they want to do their business model would rake in the cash. That is a very solid theory, feel free to debate about it.
A lot of people are advocating crazy things like completely redesigning the game to be more like POE. That's just not going to happen.

Rather than crying for D3 to be something that it isn't, why not focus on making it more of what it is?

Things I'd like to see:

-> Add one more set per character with the release of the Necromancer
-> Take a look at all the unused / garbage skills each class has and adjust them
-> Massive re-balance pass over all sets so that each one is as capable as any other in GRs
-> Maybe drop set bonuses by one, or add another slot in the cube, so that we can start combining different sets together? I know that current sets are balanced now with that in mind and it is a massive undertaking
-> Look at all the garbage legendaries and adjust the crappy ones so that we can use more of them in Litany builds
-> Give us another gold sink, or two! Something more meaningful than just "oh, this costs gold?"
-> Uncap or raise the cap on legendary gems, fiddle with the crappy ones, add a few more
-> Take a hard look at regular gems and improve the functionality of ones that aren't emeralds or diamonds...

Mainly just a lot of re-balancing and QOL changes. Adding a bit "more" to what is already there. Maybe look to see if more than 4 people can play in a lobby at once (that would be incredible)!

Just do a pass or two over all the content and see what can be squeezed out of it. That would make me and many other people very, very happy and keep playing for a long time. One of the reasons why I still play D3 over POE (though I do play the latter occasionally) is because of just how good the gameplay feels. Blizzard has always been the best at making absolutely addictive feedback loops and I think D3 does this well...

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