Would D3 have been better if there were skill trees?

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5 builds built around "4 sets" doesn't sound like build diversity to me..
I'm just one person. The end. I could say more, but *I* actually don't have to.

Add to that, its a DoubleXP weekend and I've so far, yanked 460 paragons. I'm more interested in doing that given that apart from a few posts on topic, theres no real conversation here. Just book material for a collection of Diablo fantasy/conspiracy theories and off topic rant addendum. ~ Oh! sorry, I mean "hypothesis"..
Paragon could be used to invest in raw damage(directly into the skill), cdr and how long a buff last for any skill so eventual any build would be viable. Along with the universal stats you already invested in reaching 800+

like you get use a paragon pt to level up as usual but since by the time you get to 800 all the other things are capped at 50 so all you are doing with paragon is putting everything in main stat pretty much what you did in d2.

But what they should've done with paragon is that on every 10th level for example 450- 500-510-520-530 etc you can modify a skill/rune "numbers" kinda like how legendary gems have a rank to increase a % how much something proc's or damage...or how long a enemy is stunned slowed or frozen just some examples

We then could allow the mystic to undo (skill modification) by paying her with a high ranked legendary gem then we are rewarded the skill point again

This is to keep us from carelessly putting points in skills were not using it can keep us focus on certain builds . This will allow true build diversity without locking us out of are standard skill sets

until we want to change them and also allow us to experiment with alternate characters. this can help push higher in GR 110+
Paragon could be used to invest in raw damage(directly into the skill), cdr and how long a buff last for any skill so eventual any build would be viable. Along with the universal stats you already invested in reaching 800+

like you get use a paragon pt to level up as usual but since by the time you get to 800 all the other things are capped at 50 so all you are doing with paragon is putting everything in main stat pretty much what you did in d2.

But what they should've do with paragon is that on every 10th level for example 450- 500-510-520-530 etc you can modify a skill/rune "numbers" kinda like how legendary gems have a rank to increase a % how much something proc's or damage...or how long a enemy is stunned slowed or frozen just some examples

We then could allow the mystic to undo (skill modification) by paying her with a high ranked legendary gem then we are rewarded the skill point again

This is to keep us from carelessly putting points in skills were not using it can keep us focus on a certain builds. This will allow true build diversity without locking us out of are standard skill sets

until we want to change them and also allow to experiment with alternate characters. Also this can help push higher in GR


I like this idea. It would be important for balance purposes though to have each skill benefit differently from each point you put into it. Some skills get a 10% increase per point while skills that do more base damage or have more supporting legendaries get 7%. You could also vary the damage increase by level. Maybe the skill gets 10% for the first 20 levels, then the increase drops as you go higher.
07/15/2017 01:13 PMPosted by TheMechE
When I played D3, I just felt so disappointed that there weren't skill trees. I mean D2 skill trees were so popular that tons of games (both console and PC) copied that style for leveling up. I never played D2 myself, but I played a lotttt of games with skill trees.

What do you guys think though? Do you think the flexibility of D3's system makes it better than skill trees? I just felt like leveling up was less valuable without the skill trees.


Nah, in the end everyone will build the select the same build tree for each character. If anything, skill tree will force you to waste your little time (power level please~!) to create a multiple same character for a different builds (Speedrun, Bounties, Hgrift run, low grift, support and utility and etc).
07/15/2017 01:13 PMPosted by TheMechE
When I played D3, I just felt so disappointed that there weren't skill trees. I mean D2 skill trees were so popular that tons of games (both console and PC) copied that style for leveling up. I never played D2 myself, but I played a lotttt of games with skill trees.

What do you guys think though? Do you think the flexibility of D3's system makes it better than skill trees? I just felt like leveling up was less valuable without the skill trees.
the problem with what they have now is the skills you use are crap... yea they are... lol. EG: In a 'balanced' game the skills you get at the end of the Leveling should be stronger than the ones you get at start or mid way in the game. so D3 lv70 last skills to get should be the strongest in the game. ~they are not and mos don't even use them because its not balanced~ with skill tree's you could go overboard on 1 skill (any skill) and make a build around it. EG: Necro army from d2. or if you thought about it in D3 form... Say you dumped 20 skill points (if there was some) into...
Don a spectral mask that horrifies all enemies within 18 yards, causing them to tremor in Fear and be Immobilized for 3 seconds.
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/active/horrify
Where each point would give it +1 yard and +0.25 seconds.
So a level 20 Horrify would be like this
Don a spectral mask that horrifies all enemies within 38 yards, causing them to tremor in Fear and be Immobilized for 8 seconds.
Tell me that's not better now.
07/15/2017 11:22 PMPosted by Kilometer
07/15/2017 01:13 PMPosted by TheMechE
When I played D3, I just felt so disappointed that there weren't skill trees. I mean D2 skill trees were so popular that tons of games (both console and PC) copied that style for leveling up. I never played D2 myself, but I played a lotttt of games with skill trees.

What do you guys think though? Do you think the flexibility of D3's system makes it better than skill trees? I just felt like leveling up was less valuable without the skill trees.


Nah, in the end everyone will build the select the same build tree for each character. If anything, skill tree will force you to waste your little time (power level please~!) to create a multiple same character for a different builds (Speedrun, Bounties, Hgrift run, low grift, support and utility and etc).


To be fair, that homogenization is partially the result of the competitive leaderboard. If we took the leaderboard out, there would no longer be an incentive for everyone not in the top 10 to be copying the number one guy on the ladder.
Skill trees are only truly effective at creating meaningful choice when the game is designed around leveling up from 1-99. The reason being that the player must choose where to put his scarce points, and one choice comes at the expense of two or three other choices.

Once a player has reached max level, though, the Skill tree becomes an obsolete mechanic. Points are not scarce because one has all of them and can respec. It essesntially becomes an open system where the player just picks what he wants and runs with it.

In D3, 99% of a player's time is spent at max level, so a skill tree system would provide the exact same amount of choice as the current rune system because players would have all the points to max out the six skills of their choice and whatever else. Therefore, I don't believe adding skill tree would solve much of anything in D3.

Scarcity is what powers charcater development in ARPGs, whether it's skill points, attribute points, gear slots, or skill slots. D2 restricted the amount of skill points one could get. D3 restricts the amount active skills one can have.
07/15/2017 10:50 PMPosted by Paladinrja

5 builds built around "4 sets" doesn't sound like build diversity to me..
I'm just one person. The end. I could say more, but *I* actually don't have to.

Add to that, its a DoubleXP weekend and I've so far, yanked 460 paragons. I'm more interested in doing that given that apart from a few posts on topic, theres no real conversation here. Just book material for a collection of Diablo fantasy/conspiracy theories and off topic rant addendum. ~ Oh! sorry, I mean "hypothesis"..


At the end, there is lack of build diversity in this game. They went down the wrong path by tying builds to sets since there is no way they can pump out enough sets to make it more diverse.

The more intellectual approach would be to look at skills and how to make them more powerful through a progression system.

And guess you started the weekend with only 201 paragon points? As you delve deeper into this game you'll see the lack of build diversity. For a new player, the game will look bright and shiny.
<span class="truncated">...</span>I'm just one person. The end. I could say more, but *I* actually don't have to.

Add to that, its a DoubleXP weekend and I've so far, yanked 460 paragons. I'm more interested in doing that given that apart from a few posts on topic, theres no real conversation here. Just book material for a collection of Diablo fantasy/conspiracy theories and off topic rant addendum. ~ Oh! sorry, I mean "hypothesis"..


At the end, there is lack of build diversity in this game. They went down the wrong path by tying builds to sets since there is no way they can pump out enough sets to make it more diverse.

The more intellectual approach would be to look at skills and how to make them more powerful through a progression system.

And guess you started the weekend with only 201 paragon points? As you delve deeper into this game you'll see the lack of build diversity. For a new player, the game will look bright and shiny.
Lol! thats my 5th account and right now I'm on XBOX. You should talk in forums less if you're gonna resort to that rubbish. I've passed-on 4 other accts with 3x your para *STANDARD*, because no ones interested in less. :D The bulk of the 460 (now 495) does actually happen to be a new acct. however. I'm using the DoubleXP to save myself some time. :)

As to the topic, you can think whatever you like; but 30yrs in and out of this industry tells me you're just being stubborn as well as ignorant on the subject. Its clear you didn't absorb, anything myself or others in the thread have said. Thats why everything you've replied with is ridiculously ambiguous. This isn't a competition and I'm not interested in your flag waving. If you have something pertinent to say, don't worry, I'll treat it on its merits.
Lol! thats my 5th account and right now I'm on XBOX. You should talk in forums less if you're gonna resort to that rubbish. I've passed-on 4 other accts with 3x your para *STANDARD* :D


What rubbish? It's true that build diversity in this game is limited by sets. I applaud you for buying the game 5 times in support of Blizzard. And it's impressive you have time to post on these forums and be over 3k paragon on 4 separate accounts.

I've been gone for 2 years playing HotS and just got back. I pretty much stopped playing soon after RoS because I didn't like the direction the game was headed with sets.

07/15/2017 10:50 PMPosted by Paladinrja
I'm more interested in doing that given that apart from a few posts on topic,


And I thought you were the one that was more interested in leveling than posting in topics.

07/16/2017 02:37 AMPosted by Paladinrja
As to the topic, you can think whatever you like; but 30yrs in and out of this industry tells me you're just being stubborn as well as ignorant on the subject. Its clear you didn't absorb, anything myself or others in the thread have said. Thats why everything you've replied with is ridiculously ambiguous. This isn't a competition and I'm not interested in your flag waving.


Sorry, not catching what your'e saying. Seems like most people here disagree with you while most are having a constructive discussion about the issues regarding build diversity and possible solutions.

But you can enlighten me on how this game promotes build diversity given how few sets there are for each class. And I'm talking about end game builds.

I don't believe I'm being ambiguous. Builds are based on sets, which are limited in themselves.
If your game is super fun in the early stages like Diablo 2, with super-rare low level sets/legs that are fun to hunt for and possibly could be used in LLD or midgame, then making new characters is actually fun and not boring.

Especially If brand new characters are pinned together to complete moderately difficult quests where people will die right away such as Blood Raven and there is a corpse fetch / gold penalty for dying like D2 so you care about dying.

Right off the bat in D2 you are looking for loot and exploring because maps are way more random with other people with super good music and art style etc so rerolling a character is fun.

If the game sucks like D3, especially D3's early game, rerolling a character is not enjoyable or totally bypassable through powerleveling which should not be allowed without barriers like D2. D2 you also had the option later years to respect for a cost which is super important to avoid the misclick problem.

Skill trees that encourage rerolling characters are an excellent idea if the game and early game overall is really fun, challenging, and immediately rewarding where loot and especially gold actually matters a ton early on.

Rerolling characters is not a drawback if the experience is super fun, like it was in D2, and not in D3 at all.

Edit - the difficulty system would have to allow to even find new players consistently like D2 had etc etc. the whole game has to be made differently / better to allow for rerolls to be a benefit. Not 4 difficulty choices off the bat and then 13 etc.
You should talk in forums less if you're gonna resort to that rubbish.


What rubbish?

07/16/2017 12:52 AMPosted by MerLock
As you delve deeper into this game you'll see the lack of build diversity. For a new player, the game will look bright and shiny.
^This presumptive posturing is what garbage posters do^

This has become a pride issue for you and are clearly taking this too personally. You're totally off kilter. Sorry, you just can't be spoken with. If I'm gonna go through the hassle of typing with a controller, its not going to be to humour your hyperbolic trash. Take care.
07/16/2017 12:40 AMPosted by RedCell
Skill trees are only truly effective at creating meaningful choice when the game is designed around leveling up from 1-99. The reason being that the player must choose where to put his scarce points, and one choice comes at the expense of two or three other choices.

Once a player has reached max level, though, the Skill tree becomes an obsolete mechanic. Points are not scarce because one has all of them and can respec. It essesntially becomes an open system where the player just picks what he wants and runs with it.

In D3, 99% of a player's time is spent at max level, so a skill tree system would provide the exact same amount of choice as the current rune system because players would have all the points to max out the six skills of their choice and whatever else. Therefore, I don't believe adding skill tree would solve much of anything in D3.

Scarcity is was powers charcater development in ARPGs, whether it's skill points, attribute points, gear slots, or skill slots. D2 restricted the amount of skill points one could get. D3 restricts the amount active skills one can have.
All very true and driven by the fact that people want to get to the endgame quickly. So everythings been geared toward that end. Ultimately, its two sides of the same coin, driven by the same end result, isn't it? ~ Good post!

Essentially, the rpg system is about the story mode, which Blizz wisely kept seperated. It could be the case that more needs to be looked at there, but thats a different discussion.
07/16/2017 03:02 AMPosted by Paladinrja
^This presumptive posturing is what garbage posters do^

This has become a pride issue for you and are clearly taking this too personally. You're totally off kilter. Sorry, you just can't be spoken with. If I'm gonna go through the hassle of typing with a controller, its not going to be to humour your hyperbolic trash. Take care.


Not taking anything personally.

You said you rather farm XP than post on this topic, yet I see you coming back to it again and again.

You said you gained 460 paragon so of course that made me curious about what your starting paragon was before the weekend and it came to about 200ish. Yes, I assumed you are a new player based on that paragon level. Not common to see players with multiple accounts, especially ones with 4 accounts over 3K paragon levels. Sorry, if that assumption offended you.

You said I was being ambiguous but I believe I've stated pretty clearly about why I think this game has a problem with build diversity - point being they are based off of a limited # of sets.

You went off about some "BS" and something else and I kinda lost you there.
07/16/2017 03:17 AMPosted by MerLock

You said I was being ambiguous but I believe I've stated pretty clearly about why I think this game has a problem with build diversity - point being they are based off of a limited # of sets.

You went off about some "BS" and something else and I kinda lost you there.


Don't worry about it. That seems to be their primary MO when anyone disagrees with them: Accuse them of ambiguity, 'hypotheticals', etc., all while complaining that they want to discuss what's actually going on in the game. A desire that has yet to be elucidated.
07/15/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Ryofu
TL:DR - D2 skill trees sucked and made leveling a giant pain in my !@#. Leave them buried in the past where they belong


Or introduce Skill Trees as an end game mechanic that is not unlocked until achieving 800 paragon? To do this, they really need to bridge the gap between solo and group xp gains, but it would be a great start!

Also, it would be nice if they added charms as well!

Been saying this for awhile, but if they had just two more end game systems to build a character, the game could be a lot more fluid and diverse, even with sets locking in 6 pieces of gear!
no
Only way the Diablo franchise as a whole gets fixed/saved is if Activision-Blizzard cleans house on the entire current team. They are a hot dumpster fire and the whole Necro expansion kerfuffle has only exposed their inadequacy more.
I'm on the fence about skill trees being the answer. From the D2 experience it seems like build are still limited because there are a limited number of viable builds, even with a tree to spec into.

I think a point system, such as the paragon system may work. Instead of dumping points into the current paragon system, points can be dumped into skills to make them stronger. As you progress and get points, you open up more builds by putting points into any skill you wanted.

Works with the Grift system since the difficulty is pretty much endless so you can keep dumping points and the content will still be challenging.

The drawback I can see is that gear can become obsolete by end game where most of the dmg is determined by the points you invest and casual players will complain how they can't keep up with those who play the game a lot.

But I guess a solution to this would be a decay affect where when a level is hit, each point invested into a skill benefits it less than the previous point. They can also boost skills with unique legs instead of with "sets" so making gear still relevant as long as they can release a lot of unique legs.

Building a fun system that offers diverse builds is difficult since it's an issue that many other games also face.
D3 would've been better if they started with an entirely different development team lol.

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