Challenge rift - More like Challenged's rift.

General Discussion
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07/19/2017 11:37 PMPosted by TianZi
As a side note, I don't see how people would end up frustrated to be unable to clear a higher GR. If someone else was able to do it without knowing the map layout, I don't see any reason I wouldn't be able to complete it in 2-3 tries max after scouting out the map.


Because of this right here:

07/20/2017 01:57 AMPosted by SoAngry
For your average casual who doesn't even known what a meta build is, it's near impossible.


So while I can understand where you are coming from, not every player has the same mechanical skill, game sense, or game knowledge to not only put together a build that works correctly (or even partially) but also will have trouble doing someone's snap shot of a high GR with a build that requires a good sense of game play to make it work well.

In fact they may not complete the rift at all if its the type of build that requires lots of precise positioning, skills used in a specific way, glass cannon, etc.

Game on.
Hey all, we’ve been seeing some great feedback on this week’s Challenge Rift build and the featured builds in general. There’s also been some confusion about how builds are chosen each week, so I wanted to offer some clarity on that.

The build chosen is actually picked by an algorithm, which we’re continuing to refine as time goes on. Each week, it picks a new build used by a player in the past week and makes that the new build for the next week’s Challenge Rift.

We’re aiming for every build to offer variety and accessibility. This is partly why you won’t often see top-performing Greater Rift builds in this mode of play; while they’re a lot of fun in Adventure Mode, the long learning curve they require to master isn’t as good a fit for a short-lived weekly challenge. For the same reason, we also reviewed this week’s Monk build and decided it was not as accessible as we would like our builds to be, so we’re tweaking the algorithm further to discourage it from selecting similar builds in the future.

While everyone will have a different take on what kinds of builds are fun, any build that’s picked should at least incorporate ways for you to survive while using it. We’ll keep working to refine which builds the algorithm picks, and as always, we appreciate the feedback we’re getting from all of you in this process!
07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
Hey all, we’ve been seeing some great feedback on this week’s Challenge Rift build and the featured builds in general. There’s also been some confusion about how builds are chosen each week, so I wanted to offer some clarity on that.

The build chosen is actually picked by an algorithm, which we’re continuing to refine as time goes on. Each week, it picks a new build used by a player in the past week and makes that the new build for the next week’s Challenge Rift.

We’re aiming for every build to offer variety and accessibility. This is partly why you won’t often see top-performing Greater Rift builds in this mode of play; while they’re a lot of fun in Adventure Mode, the long learning curve they require to master isn’t as good a fit for a short-lived weekly challenge. For the same reason, we also reviewed this week’s Monk build and decided it was not as accessible as we would like our builds to be, so we’re tweaking the algorithm further to discourage it from selecting similar builds in the future.

While everyone will have a different take on what kinds of builds are fun, any build that’s picked should at least incorporate ways for you to survive while using it. We’ll keep working to refine which builds the algorithm picks, and as always, we appreciate the feedback we’re getting from all of you in this process!


Honestly it was not even remotely hard, stop listening to the casual playerbase and always making stuff too easy. " Bohoo i cant do it because im not willing to try enough please nerf it " infact make them a lot harder and better rewards
it picks a new build used by a player in the past week and makes that the new build for the next week’s Challenge Rift.

That monk build was recent?
07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
the long learning curve they require to master isn’t as good a fit for a short-lived weekly challenge
You need to have a word with your very own developer team since they advertised the mode as one "ultra competitive players" should look forward to and tell them not to lie to their player base since this discredits them. Just to let you know that competitive players would love to play hard to master builds in static environment with tier progression. All the best and I hope you deliver my feedback.
I don't know what the hours played on that monk were, but the most logical reason for its weird gearing and skillset choice was that it was a fresh toon the player was just getting the hang of. Might be a good tweak to the algorithm to include a /played filter of 20 hours or so?
07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
For the same reason, we also reviewed this week’s Monk build and decided it was not as accessible as we would like our builds to be, so we’re tweaking the algorithm further to discourage it from selecting similar builds in the future.


So the solution is to make challenge rifts less challenging...Gotcha!

You guys are really hitting the nail on it's head!
07/27/2017 12:16 PMPosted by Skelos
07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
the long learning curve they require to master isn’t as good a fit for a short-lived weekly challenge
You need to have a word with your very own developer team since they advertised the mode as one "ultra competitive players" should look forward to and tell them not to lie to their player base since this discredits them. Just to let you know that competitive players would love to play hard to master builds in static environment with tier progression. All the best and I hope you deliver my feedback.


You also need to keep in mind that not everyone doing a challenge rift are going to be ultra competitive.

Blizzard is trying to cater to the player base as a WHOLE. Not just those of you that think they are elite and need to be kept above everyone else.

And since this is about those of you that think you are "pros" at this game lets look at a couple of things:

Being that you know everything about builds, synergy and what works with what, what skills do what and what gear to pick, etc, that also should mean that you could take a more chaotic or even incomplete build and know exactly how to play it to make the most of it and complete the main objective. What was that btw?

Oh yeah. Completing it faster than everyone else. That's right.

Since everyone has the same exact rift, same exact build, same exact... Everything... What does that leave you with? Skill.

So those skillful and talented players are on here !@#$%ing because they think the build is dumb. The person who put it together (apparently within the past week) is an idiot and shouldn't play. And yet, some of these skillful and talented players are barely beating the time themselves.

Something about this to me at least screams foul.

So you want only to play builds that (in your view) make sense (to you) vs playing a build that someone else put together that made sense to them and they did the best they could.

Personally I think these CRs are pretty spot on. And I know they are all not going to be like this week's was. Some will be decent builds, higher GRs and others will be different but playable, and some may not make sense to anyone but the creator.

That still doesn't change the point though. How fast can you complete the rift with what you got?

If you can't handle the challenge, then skip that week. But that's what its all about. Beating time.

If you all can get that into your heads, you will be alright.

Game on.
07/27/2017 12:40 PMPosted by DTMAce
Since everyone has the same exact rift, same exact build, same exact... Everything... What does that leave you with? Skill.


Ha! Not saying that players that rank on the top of the leaderboards don't have skill but like anything else in this game the more time you put into it can lead to higher rankings. Say someone runs the CR twice and posts a good time and you beat that time but it took you 10 tries. Are you actually more skilled than that player?

The CRs should also show attempts/time spent in CRs...for those of you arguing that it's all about skill :)
07/27/2017 12:21 PMPosted by Aradel
I don't know what the hours played on that monk were, but the most logical reason for its weird gearing and skillset choice was that it was a fresh toon the player was just getting the hang of. Might be a good tweak to the algorithm to include a /played filter of 20 hours or so?
I don't think that matters. if the build works, it works, and that build worked to clear the grift in 7 mins.
07/27/2017 12:40 PMPosted by DTMAce
Since everyone has the same exact rift, same exact build, same exact... Everything... What does that leave you with? Skill.


Yes, but being fast is not the only way to measure the skill. Staying alive is another. Challenge Rift should test both. Now it is almost impossible to die in a challenge rift and that's the biggest problem for me.
07/27/2017 12:52 PMPosted by Shark
The CRs should also show attempts/time spent in CRs...for those of you arguing that it's all about skill :)


07/27/2017 01:04 PMPosted by Ruined
Yes, but being fast is not the only way to measure the skill. Staying alive is another. Challenge Rift should test both.


I have no problems with either of these concepts. I completely agree in fact. But that still doesn't affect the main complaint, which is about what builds should or shouldn't be allowed. I agree that not just anything should be put up in the challenge, but to impose the sort of limits some of you are asking for is ludicrous.

It sounds like Blizzard is not going to go completely ape!@#$ and are adjusting the algorithm a tad to help some, but to go into these expecting to get to play some godly build is not going to happen very often. You are more likely to see more of the lower tier to middle-of-the-road builds, as they are more widely used, in between the inexperienced and the elite builds.

So yeah, bring on more details, let us see how many deaths it took, or how many attempts. I like those ideas.

Game on.
07/27/2017 01:15 PMPosted by DTMAce

So yeah, bring on more details, let us see how many deaths it took, or how many attempts. I like those ideas.


Yeah that's a good idea.
My two cents:

There's a HUGE potential in the Challenge Rifts, even e-sports potential but it doesn't fulfill if the gameplay in them is plainly boring as it has been now.

  • Have 5 different tiers and 5 different leaderboards. Each tier having the same run but enemies being more difficult than in the previous tier. Completing each tier would grant a cache.
  • Everyone could complete the first tier. But the final 5th tier would be a true Medal of Honor for those who are able to finish it with enemies too powerful to a given par time.
    07/27/2017 01:27 PMPosted by Ruined
    07/27/2017 01:15 PMPosted by DTMAce

    So yeah, bring on more details, let us see how many deaths it took, or how many attempts. I like those ideas.


    Yeah that's a good idea.


    Having said that. It is entirely possible to practice using one account, then make your final push with another and get a high spot in one go. But aside from that?

    It wouldn't really matter since its still a level playing field. Anyone could potentially claim a spot on the leader boards.
    Well, if a challenge rift isnt supposed to be a challenge actually then why bother ?

    This is not a good player / new player / bad player issue; its just that a challenge needs to be a challenge - for everyone - and that means also for experienced players.

    If blizz doesnt want to confront new players with "not doable in 1st attempt stuff" they should at least offer optional modes and rankings like easy, medium and hard. Just offering one and the same difficulty for everyone will always leave parts of the com unsatisfied - while some enjoy it its too easy for others, and vice versa while experienced players love difficulty its a pain for new players.
    I understand that you are doing it or trying to do it automated, but can you at least have some internal testing until its smoothed out? Part of writing code does involve testing to ensure it works and a strong part of something like this would be to insure that the build selected is actually viable for players.

    I do want a challenge but I also want to have a good part of that be me challenging myself.

    07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
    This is partly why you won’t often see top-performing Greater Rift builds in this mode of play; while they’re a lot of fun in Adventure Mode, the long learning curve they require to master isn’t as good a fit for a short-lived weekly challenge.


    While this is not a top-performing rift setup this build does have a very very long learning curve. Even the initial player only had a few seconds to go before they failed. If you cannot expect the original player to do the rift in 90-95% of remaining time they what would you expect from players trying a creative build that finished with less then ten seconds remaining or similar.

    Equally so that with the way rift difficulties scale with more players it logically means that with a full party the rift has a reasonable chance to at least be finished which was not the case here.

    07/27/2017 11:56 AMPosted by Tyvalir
    We’re aiming for every build to offer variety and accessibility.


    Variety was met here but accessibility was missed by a kilometre and a half. Not every player plays Monks same as not every player plays Wizard. I know I am not a top end player but this Monk player seems to either be very good or is very very lucky. (I am leaning towards good here)

    ---

    With a system this new, failures are more problematic because of two factors:

    • People tend to remember failures more then successes when it comes to this type of thing so something like this if they cannot do it over 80% of the time it will steer people from playing it. Given you just had your fourth or fifth you really cannot afford another failure.
    • The reward exists. Because we are being rewarded to at least succeed if not excel it magnifies the frustration. If you want people to look at the option and generally try then you must make the rifts at least enticing. The Dev team wanted to avoid people feeling like they had to grind to get the boxes. And making the rift entry this hard is exactly that.
    If we want the build to have some quality, it needs to do at least Gr50. The GR level doesn't matter much. It's the clear time that shows if the run is difficult or not. Gr60 5 min should be easy for all for example.
    The issue I have and I think many others have is that CRs aren't engaging. Once you get the reward they aren't enough fun enough or challenging enough to keep running them. Most people only run them for the "free" mats. If you took the crafting mats out of the reward you would see a plummet in CR player participation. Only the insanely competitive players would even be playing them.

    So like most players, I run the CR 1-2 times, grab my reward, and never even think about running it again. I truly wish they were fun and worthy of a new game mode, but they are seriously lacking IMO.
    07/27/2017 02:01 PMPosted by Shark
    The issue I have and I think many others have is that CRs aren't engaging. Once you get the reward they aren't enough fun enough or challenging enough to keep running them. Most people only run them for the "free" mats. If you took the crafting mats out of the reward you would see a plummet in CR player participation. Only the insanely competitive players would even be playing them.

    So like most players, I run the CR 1-2 times, grab my reward, and never even think about running it again. I truly wish they were fun and worthy of a new game mode, but they are seriously lacking IMO.

    I personally wouldn't bother with it if there was no reward.
    Although i was thinking about playing a monk and after playing this weeks CR, monk can go to hell... i'm never playing on that crap again, unless it appears in the CR again.

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