If Blizz really believed in the slogan "Play your way"

General Discussion
They would make all legendary items powerful enough to swap into at least one set each and have it work just as well as the cookie cutter builds on the ladders.

Even something simple like Fire Walkers, instead of dealing 400% a second have it deal like 4000% a second. Make all the legendary items good enough to make us consider using them or swapping into our builds!

There is so much wasted potential on all these other legendary items that just get trashed cause compared to the meta they're just garbage or useless.

Ok so finding a 4000% Fire Walker is OP early game at low level. So make them scale with level. There IS a way to balance it.
The problem is that there are items in the game that have 4000% bonuses and some which have 400% bonuses. There is no way mathematically that the latter will every compete with the former. Until the sets are all redesigned and nerfed, or every single legendary in the game redesigned and buffed, there will never be what you suggest.

The math got broken in vanilla with the so-called trifecta/quadfecta (you get main stat + attack speed + crit chance + crit damage all on the same item). They didn't want to nerf it and take power away from players, so they inflated power around it. Not only that, but they left the trifecta in place, so now, even with larger numbers, you could still see the same massive power spike. So the design ripples again and they decide legendaries should be "build defining" and they start adding 300+% damage bonuses to legendaries. The sets weren't competitive, so the design ripples again and we get the sets we have today.

Blizz didn't fix the core math. They just kept shoehorning more and more power into the game to compensate. As a result, we have a ton of vestigial items that remain in the game, but are worthless auto-salvage items because while once potentially good, they've been outclassed by overpowered new items.
Ramaladni's Gift of Royal Grandeur

Apply to any non set ancient legendary, and that piece will count as the 6th item of any currently equipped set.
07/23/2017 10:52 AMPosted by Joat
The math got broken in vanilla with the so-called trifecta/quadfecta (you get main stat + attack speed + crit chance + crit damage all on the same item).


I have to disagree. Those factors are a constant factor in pretty much all builds.

What broke the game was loot 2.0, with the factors set & legendaries providing variable power.
Example:
FoK-Build: times 13 multiplier on S2 with times 60 multiplier from LGF.
MS-Build:times 120ish multiplier on UE6 with times 2 to times 4 multiplier from DML and times 1.5 from Yang's.
RoV-Build: times 11 from N6 with times 10 to 20 from skill with times 2 from belt.

If they had sticked to a solid (example):
set times 1.77
legy times 1.1
then we wouldn't be in that mess...

07/23/2017 10:52 AMPosted by Joat
Until the sets are all redesigned and nerfed, or every single legendary in the game redesigned and buffed, there will never be what you suggest.


this is mostly correct. Some legies need to be nerfed as well.
I'm just so bored of 95% of the sets just being focused on 1 attack for it's damage. Or the stupid conditions of: "you have to hit with this first so this one attack does a f*** ton of damage"
No, none of what you suggested would solve anything.

"Powerful" and "OP" are both relative terms, meaning that they depend on what the highest-tier or fastest builds are capable of. "Balanced" is not when every item combination performs the same, but when items perform at the level they are intended to perform at. With that said, not every item or skill in the game is designed to clear Greater Rift 100+, and if they were, there would be significantly less thinking involved to making a build.

And, for the record, "cookie-cutter" builds only exist because players choose to copy and paste the top performing builds from the leader board (or online guides), not because the Developers tell people what or how to play. So, wanting "cookie-cutter" builds removed from the game would be impossible unless you also take away every incentive a player might have to want to use those builds, like leader boards, higher ranked gems, Primal items, etc.

Unfortunately, this is a problem that exists between the players' ears, not with the Developers or with how the game was designed. Sorry.
07/23/2017 11:33 AMPosted by HelloKitty
With that said, not every item or skill in the game is designed to clear Greater Rift 100+, and if they were, there would be significantly less thinking involved to making a build.


The opposite is true.
When you can see that something is obviously overpowered, then you don't have to spend much thought to find the best.
However, if everythings quite balanced, then you have to spend quite some thought into figuring out the skill- and itemcombinations that work well.
They would not nerf every build they did not think off, like they do now.
I agree with the idea the OP had... IF this game was ""Balance"" there wouldn't be a cookie cutter -at all... THAT is exactly what players want as a whole. Why should even 1 skill be 'useless' in this game. EG: Show me one monk that uses
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/deadly-reach
... LOL.
There are those type of skill for EVERY class in this game.

What i would suggest is expanding on the Items in this game by 100x so you could actually use ANY skill in this game and be half way decent as well.
07/23/2017 11:33 AMPosted by HelloKitty
And, for the record, "cookie-cutter" builds only exist because players choose to copy and paste the top performing builds from the leader board (or online guides), not because the Developers tell people what or how to play.

I have to disagree. The developers have indeed told people what and how to play. Those instructions are in the set bonuses. Want to play a wizard? Put on Tal's and rotate 4 different elements while trying to stay in Archon as long as possible. Want to play a Demon Hunter? Well, you've got a couple of options: melee or ranged, none of which can be played without a dedicated 6pc set bonus. Want to play a...? You get my point. There's a little variation that derives from highly creative thought leaders in the community, but the intention from the developers is clear.

This is exactly what we're attempting to address. We want other options to be viable, but when you have to stack those options against 2500%+ set bonuses, the math doesn't work out. Sure, you can get a "creative" build through T8-10. Try running it through a speedfarm T13 behind a set-based build. No contest. I'm far less concerned about push builds. I expect those to be limited, but T13 isn't GR pushing. It should be the standard which many builds can hit.

Why should T13 be the standard? Because it's the end of the standard difficulty progression and offers the most efficient farming in a game that's defined by farming items. Before they added T11-13, I would have held T10 as the standard and for the same reason.

07/23/2017 11:33 AMPosted by HelloKitty
With that said, not every item or skill in the game is designed to clear Greater Rift 100+

Agreed, but I do think that all legendaries should have some niche in which they could potentially be powerful. Try doing that with Empyrean Messenger or Vigilante Belt or the Broken Staff or Tyrael's Might armor, or St. Archew's Gage or the Blackthorne set. We all know them. There are clearly items that still need to be given some purpose in the game other than auto-salvage.
I'd be very careful here, if all items were completely balanced to the nth degree, it simply wouldn't matter what items you chose. It'd be very similar to The Necromancer passive choices.
I like items like firewalkers that deal a static amount of damage not related to a specific skill. I also think that at 400% these items are just fine.

The problem was created when they made items that raised a specific skills damage rather than an array of skills.

For instance, a good item is depth diggers, which raises the power of your primary skills. A bad item is Bracers of the first men which raises just Hammer of the Ancients.....

If all legendary items related to skills functioned like depth diggers (Yes even set powers!) then we would have much more build diversity within each set in the game!
07/23/2017 12:03 PMPosted by IamLegion
I agree with the idea the OP had... IF this game was ""Balance"" there wouldn't be a cookie cutter -at all... THAT is exactly what players want as a whole. Why should even 1 skill be 'useless' in this game. EG: Show me one monk that uses
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/deadly-reach
... LOL.
There are those type of skill for EVERY class in this game.

What i would suggest is expanding on the Items in this game by 100x so you could actually use ANY skill in this game and be half way decent as well.


Yes.

Necro release was a starkly painful reminder of this failure on their part. They released a brand new class replete with dozens of new abilities.. of which only about 12 are used. I think I've cast a total of.. 13 Bone Spirits? Why bother, when sets don't buff it and its 1 legendary is useless?

Revive is terrible. Corpse Explosion is ok, but everybody uses Corpse Lance "cuz Elites, dummy" (TM Blizz devs)

Heck, Bone Spirit has a set dedicated to it, and its still terrible.

And I was thinking how awful it was that people won't use 75% of Necro skills outside of the 1-69 lvl progression.. and then I thought "wait a minute, that's true of every class that has skills which fall outside the set/leg bonus scheme".

TLDR, OP is on to something.
07/23/2017 12:51 PMPosted by cknopp
I'd be very careful here, if all items were completely balanced to the nth degree, it simply wouldn't matter what items you chose. It'd be very similar to The Necromancer passive choices.

I'm not really interested in parity of the individual items. I'm interested in seeing creativity fostered.

Ever tried to make a Hungering Arrow or Elemental Arrow or Chakram build for your demon hunter? The item support just isn't there. I'm suggesting that there should be options to make such things viable.

There are a ton of holdover legendaries with no real legendary power. Their uniqueness was that they could roll things in slots they weren't supposed to, giving them extra power. This worked back in the day, before the legendary affixes all got big buffs to bring them more in line with things like Furnace and Calamity. However, now, they're mostly auto-salvage items. These need to be redesigned to enable a few more options of builds. No one really needs a legendary that rolls 5 primaries/1 secondary instead of 4/2 anymore. The power of that 5th primary pales in comparison to the legendary affixes most items get now.

I'd like to see the sets be a little wider focused as well, instead of simply enabling 1-2 skills as your primary damage dealers. I love my Hammerdin Crusader but I have one option for her for a generator and one for a spender. I think that's a touch too limited. I think they did a better job with the WD ones which offer a pretty good range of options.
07/23/2017 11:33 AMPosted by HelloKitty
With that said, not every item or skill in the game is designed to clear Greater Rift 100+, and if they were, there would be significantly less thinking involved to making a build.

I really don't think any item or skill is specifically designed to clear GR 100+. The only people at that GR have +10,000-20,000 to their main stat from para level.
At first, legendary and set item was worthle. They buff the legendary item so that everyone will stop using rare item only. Then, they found out everyone were using legendary and nobody use set items. So they buff the set item. Imagine if they buff legendary item now and nobody use set. It became like an endless cycle of buffing.
You know, the game is fun when you are pre-70. Once you hit 70, itemization falls flat.

When leveling up, I actually don't mind keeping a level 30ish Fire Walkers, Pox or other "damage" armors. The damage from Fire Walker is like having a free spender hitting nearby enemies every second, which is amazing.

Alas, those ungodly multipliers from Set items and even Legendary items make most other items obsolete and grossly outdated.
07/23/2017 01:06 PMPosted by Joat
These need to be redesigned to enable a few more options of builds. No one really needs a legendary that rolls 5 primaries/1 secondary instead of 4/2 anymore.


only the builds that rely on toughness as defense...
The core issue it sets. Having every item with varying bonuses is ok. The problem is with sets and the insane multipliers for skill and damage, it caused individual items to be toned down so they were not OP.

Just hope for D4 they get away from sets and give us our loot hunt back. As we all see now in seasons, sets are the only things that matter and once we have that and maybe a weapon, it is a matter of only finding something slightly better. Plus, sets ruin ALL diversity as above posters have pointed out.

Too late for D3 unfortunately...

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